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#3733240 - 02/09/13 10:50 PM X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid  
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Paradaz Offline
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Well, I've just got lucky.......

My Warthog is waiting parts so I found a MS FFB2 joystick (like new) on ebay and won the auction at £16. Minutes later I saw an X52 Pro at a 'Buy It Now' price for £50 and it was too good to miss. Unfortunately when the HOTAS arrived the throttle was just floppy (no tension).

I thought I'd hedge my bets with the seller, and let them know that it wasn't quite pristine as described in the sale....they said it was from a house clearance and hadn't actually being tested. They told me to keep the HOTAS and refunded me the full £50 so basically got it for free.

I opened up the throttle and noticed the tension mechanism was bust although I did manage to fix it. All this time I was falling in love with the MS FFB2, especially in DCS Black Shark. It was a totally different feel to my old gritty Logitech G940, so now I have a new project.......

The MS FFB2 is here to stay, although I'll be putting the X52 Pro handle on it, and dropping some of the circuitry into the FFB2 base. I think I'll keep the 3 toggle switches, the LCD screen and the old X52 throttle pot in a different button box and will link the stick to the button box with Cat5 cables that can be removed. (keystone/punchdown) Photos hopefully soon.

[Admin Edit: Post moved as per request smile ]
Thanks....appreciated!


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3733408 - 02/10/13 02:27 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Nice scores! Looking forward to seeing how this comes together...


looks very modernishy-phoney-windows eighty-tabletty like

Asus P8P67 Pro Rev. 3.0 // i5 2500k @4.3 GHz with Noctua NH-D14 // nvidia gtx 780 // 8 GB DDR3 1600 //Win7 home 64 bit //450 GB VelociRaptor //Recon3D Champion
#3733703 - 02/11/13 10:38 AM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Well, I started yesterday.......I dismantled the X52 and tried to keep all the circuitry/rotaries and buttons out of the throttle but unfortunately I had to break most of it just to get it out so sadly it didn't survive.

I also bored out the inside of the FFB2 stalk with a 12mm drill bit as the Saitek grip is just too fat to slide inside:




You will notice the ribbon cable coming from the X52 grip has 11 coloured wires onto the white plug, one option is to put the X52 circuitry inside the FFB2 base as there is plenty of room, however in order to have my button box functional, I'm going to extend these 11 wires via 2 x Cat5 cables instead. You'll see the two grey cat5 cables in the picture below, however I'm going to move these around the back of the base so they come out with the usb/power connector.

So here is the hybrid stick, untested yet as I need to connect the other ends of the Cat5 cable back into the white connector.



I have bodged the X52 throttle unit into a button box although there is a lot of tidying up to do yet, and to work out where I'm going to put the circuitry. The button box will have 2 x thumb wheels, 3 x buttons, 1 x rotary (which used to be the X52 throttle) and the 3 x 2-way toggles which used be part of the joystick unit.




Expect to see lots of carbon fibre adhesive wrap, which for anyone familiar with my mods will know that I use lots of it to cover up the untidy work!! Will do some more work on this next weekend and add some more info/phots.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3733726 - 02/11/13 01:00 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Nice but why not keep the Throttle intact?

#3733731 - 02/11/13 01:18 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Paradaz Offline
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I'll be using the warthog throttle unit.

I'm kind of using my favourite bits from each device. The ideal combination for me would be the warthog stick with a FFB base for the DCS Blackshark as the feedback makes a huge difference, but the motors aren't strong enough to drive the weight of the WH grip. Someone else has done a mod which combines 2 x FFB2 motor units but more modification is required for a centre mod etc especially to house this. I've recently done away with my centre mod so this is based around desktop use.

So effectively I have FFB2 base with the Saitek stick, as that's a good compromise (the stock FFB2 grip just doesn't have enough buttons on it). Then I have the Warthog throttle doing the obvious job and the button box providing a few extra bells and whistles and the information is also connected with the X52 grip and shows operating modes etc.

I have noticed from starting this mod that the FFB2 innards are top quality and bomb-proof. The X52 in comparison, even as one of Saiteks 'higher end' units is very cheap and plasticky. All the pots and circuitry are not the best quality at all. Saying that, if I'd have bought the X52 pro at retail price (like I did a long time ago) I doubt I would have started a mod like this knowing 75% of it was going to end up in the bin.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3733873 - 02/11/13 06:39 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Yes I am familiar with PeterP's Mod, and I plan to do a version of his mod, but I have a backup plan. I have used a grip from an old FLCS and merged it with the MSFF2, It's working but I'm waiting for some PS2 cables to arrive to drive the MSFF2 buttons through the warthog stick. Also the stick is extended and the plan is to discard the MSFF2 base and replace it with a costum center mount. I'll try to post pictures of what I've done so far later.

#3733909 - 02/11/13 07:55 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Paradaz Offline
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That sounds ideal if you can pull that off. To be honest I originally got the FFB2 just to test out whilst my Warthog is knackered but immediately loved the feel of it.....just the lack of buttons that spoilt it a little so went looking for options.

The dual motor version of the FFB2 to house the Warthog stick will be the ultimate helo controller, especially with the stick extension but I'm intrigued as to what you'll do with a custom center mount. Will it be similar to PeterP's or are you looking for some additional tweaks?


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3734225 - 02/12/13 10:47 AM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Well basically I have already pulled it off. As you know the Cougar and the Warthog can interchange the handles, as you may also be aware they don't connect they're buttons and hats directly to the stick main PCB, but rather have a small logic PCB inside the grip that converts it all to the 5 wires that then connect to the PS2 style connector, what I found out when I opened the FLCS grip is that the it had a small PCB on the grip and that it also sent it all down through 5 wires, upon closer inspection I found that the logic chips on this PCB were the same reference number as the ones on the cougar, they're were only a bigger older version of them, but someone with deeped understanding of electronics told me they would work exctrly the same, the only question now would be if the PCB was arranged similar or not and so that the output signals were the same or not. Because I didn't have the PS2 cable I had to do some direct wiring to the cougar base but once I got it all connected what I found is that it actually WORKED... partially, most of the buttons and hats were swapped or the hats had swapped directions. BUT THEY WERE WORKING!!!! Well except for TG1 and TG2 those where not giving any signal. So comparing the to PCBs they I found they have 5 connectors that the hats and buttons wire to, on both casses these connectors had all they're 5 wires taken except for 1 connector with only 3 wires and 2 left free, so after finding (wire tracing) wich hats or switches were supose to go there I swapped them and testing I had TG1 and TG1 working, at least 1 of them reporting some other button but it didn't matter. Most Buttons and hats were swapped at this point but I knew all I had to do was to swapp some wires around. So at this point instead of comparing both PCB's I took notes of what was reporting was what and made the swaps acording to that, taking care that I wasn't swaping the ground wiring but the positive to each button or hat position, this was not dificult since the grounding was allways common to a bunch of buttons (and basically each hat position is a button too). This was all done with no soldering beeing involved what I did asside from two connecters that I was able to interchange wich was basically the CMS switch and some other hat I can't remember that were swapped and the way it's wired is preaty much 6 connectors 1 hat to each connector and 2 connectors for the 6 buttons (S1-S4,TG1,TG2) with one of those connectors only with 3 wires since it only has 2 buttons on it. Anyway so I swapped those 2 connectors at this point I belive (can't remember exactly) all hats had eighter UP and DOWN swapped or LEFT and RIGHT (again not sure anymore), I first thought of unsoldering the buttons to swap the wires (another solution would have been to swap the reports in FOXY but it wasn't enough for me at this point) but then I had the idea of pulling the terminals out of the connectorts (WITHOUT BRAKING the micro flap that works as a hook so they latch to the connector) so that's what I did, I swapped it all at the connectors and I saved myself a world of hurt bucause I'm a terrible solderer.
So like I suspected once I oppened the FLCS base and saw 5 wires comming from the handle and said to myself "NO way Thrustmaster reinvented this twice!" in a way they kind of did because they changed some of the what connects to where to a point, but to my delight mostly, they didn't.

#3736338 - 02/16/13 03:20 AM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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I wish I had seen this thread earlier.. I use a MSFFB2/X-52 setup as well.. I use my X-52 solely as a button bay. I modded it and I am currently working on refining the mod I did .. it looks kinda chintzy now.. I initially modded my X-45 back in the day.. which I bought on a whim because I wanted a throttle and initially I was going to just use the throttle .. but the X-45 throttle would not work without the stick .. so I had this odd setup on my desk with this stick just sitting there...
So I decided to use it as a button bay.. Then I decided to try to mod the stick becauase y desk was kind of small.. and I did.



The X-45 was a challenge because it was not modular..

When the X-45 finally died .. I got an X-52.. My desk was a little bigger by then so it took a while .. but I decided to try to do the same thing to the X-52. It was an entirely different situation because the X-52 was very modular.. With ther X-45 I wound up having to splice each line of wire through the stick.. with the X-52 everything came apart with connectors.. This was the result..




It still works fine.. but as I said it looks kinda chintzy so I am redoing it.. I took these pics when I started it so I will post them here in this thread in case anyone else has the idea.. so they can get a picture of what the innards look like.



X-52 deconstructed






I got some sliding pots to replace the rotary ones wit the red knobs.. I use the rudder pot for rudder trim.. but it all works great. I like what you did with the MSFFB2 stick. I will post pics when I get done with my re do.

I like the X-52 because it is built the way it is.. I have some spare parts and once I get the base right I will keep it that way and fix where applicable.. The MSFFB2 is so good just as it is.. I refuse to touch it.. wink




Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3736610 - 02/16/13 08:03 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Some great mods there, I had a bit of a nightmare last night.....in a rush to make some more progress after successfully testing everything I pulled a load of wires out of one of the circuit boards.

Gutted, after finally getting my 2 x cat5 cables working that extend all the stick connectivity to the button box I now need to desolder one of the circuit boards and resolder it.....I'm not the best at soldering and there isnt much room for error so fingers crossed.

Have just repaired my Warthog but really want to get this up and running, as its infinitely better for controlling helos.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3736637 - 02/16/13 08:58 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
...had a bit of a nightmare last night.....in a rush to make some more progress after successfully testing everything I pulled a load of wires out of one of the circuit boards.


Don't even remind me.. I thought I killed my new (used) warthgo a few days after getting it while checking if it had enoght grease in the mechanism to go arround. The wires to the stick got yanked so bad thad not only the connector diconnected from the PCB, but most of the 5 wires actually got yanked from the connector. After that the WH was recongnized but I couldn't access the device properties window, had no axis or button response.... in the end it was just a couple of wire that had unsoldered at the PS2 type connector. The WH Joystick unlike the cougar cannot work without the grip attached. It was a scary way to find out.

#3737086 - 02/17/13 10:35 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Paradaz Offline
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My sausage fingers successfully resoldered one of the boards today. I soldered some wires to the front and some to the back of the board as I just didn't have the skill or finesse to do a proper job on the same side of the circuit board (see photo below) - it's now a lot stronger and amazingly it worked first time.







So the functionality is now there, the connectivity between X52 Pro stick and the button box is not very elegant but the 2 x Cat5 cables were the first idea that popped into my head and enables the 11 wires for all the buttons/hats etc to be extended out of the FFB2 base. Originally, the circuitry was held in the X52 stick base so that has now moved into the base of the throttle.

I'll perhaps look at the connectivity between bases another time but it's OK for now and allows me to detach both devices via the back-to-back couplers.

The rotary on the button box was originally the X52 pro throttle. I'll obviously paint/tidy that area up soon.







So Device Manager now shows the FFB2 and the X52 Pro Host Devices.....




You'll notice that the X52 Pro Game controller settings show all the old axis although some of these aren't connected anymore (such as X,Y axis as I'm using the FFB2 and associated motors to provide this, however the X52 Pro buttons which used to be labelled 1-34 are now only showing the connected buttons - the Z-Axis is the rotary on top of the button box.



I'll put this hybrid to the test properly now within DCS Blackshark before going any further and tarting up, just in case I need to make any last minute changes.



On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3738341 - 02/19/13 10:11 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Here is my final X-52 ..



I have spare boards, spare hat switch modules and spare switch bays.. All the pots and switches work.. and it is much neater t6han the initial version.. I used Gorilla tape to hold it all together.


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3738982 - 02/20/13 11:22 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Bearcat99]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Excellent work.....you're giving me more ideas now lol. Perhaps I should have kept the throttle in place after all. Would have saved me having to connect the Warthog Throttle as nice as it is.

Were you not tempted to put one of the X52 sticks on your FFB2? If there is one area that is lacking its the amount of buttons available on the stick itself. Other than that I think the internals of the FFB2 are top quality and will last a long time. I just need to drop some decent grease inside.....I hear 'white lithium' is good stuff unless you have any recommendations.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3739108 - 02/21/13 02:50 AM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Excellent work.....you're giving me more ideas now lol. Perhaps I should have kept the throttle in place after all. Would have saved me having to connect the Warthog Throttle as nice as it is.

Were you not tempted to put one of the X52 sticks on your FFB2? If there is one area that is lacking its the amount of buttons available on the stick itself. Other than that I think the internals of the FFB2 are top quality and will last a long time. I just need to drop some decent grease inside.....I hear 'white lithium' is good stuff unless you have any recommendations.


Thanks.. no recommendations on grease.. as far as the X52 pats on the FFB.. I wanted to keep all of the X52 parts together.. there is nothing I would change about The FFB2 and since the profiling SW doesn't work in W7 I use Total Game Control but the SST SW is so versatile ...


Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
#3753709 - 03/19/13 08:19 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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Maico Offline
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Bearcat, that stuff is bad ass. I like the way you have the franken throttle arranged. Good work. I will keep dreaming until I get the pair needed to do some surgury on my X-52.

Cheers

Maico


Maico
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#3763348 - 04/05/13 09:07 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: Paradaz]  
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blindone Offline
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This thread has inspired me to create my own franken-throttle

#3782659 - 05/15/13 04:06 PM Re: X52/MS FFB2 Hybrid [Re: blindone]  
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Maico Offline
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Maico
i7 5930 @4.2Ghz
EVGA GTX1080 8GB Hybrid
DDR4 3000 x 32Gig
Fatal1ty x99x Mother
LG 34"UC97 Curved
Ultra Wide 3440x1440
TiR5, Thrustmaster Warthog,
Slaw Device Bf-109 Pedals

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