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#3719249 - 01/16/13 09:30 PM Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar  
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jwardell Offline
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I recently purchased through Amazon a 2004 Ihrustmaster cougar that was represented as being in excellent condition. little used and never repaired or modified.
I paid 250.00 plus shipping.
What I received was cosmetically in near perfect condition however when I attempted to reattach the handle to the joystick base I discovered that the base piece of the joystick that lead into the gimble potion of the joystick base was essentially free floating. It would be easily moved through at least 150 degree of arc and could rotate nearly 360 degrees. While waiting to see what the seller wanted to do I did not try to open the unit and investigate nor did I try connecting it as best as I could and testing it out. As well when received I found one of the screws that held the base plate to the throttle assembly floating loose in the box, At first I thought it must have just come unscrewed however inspecting it revealed that it had been sheared off and a portion was still threaded in place while the remaining portion had broken off. It was obvious that someone had probably over tightened it and sheared it off.
Has anyone seen such damage as this before?
Any idea what this would be worth?
As I said I did not test out anything though mechanically the pro throttle appeared to be functional and all buttons/hats on the handle were intact and appeared functional.
I guess I could invest the 320 euros to replace the guts of the joystick with a real simulator fsssb r1 and hope that the throttle was fully functional or just send it back for a refund.
Any one have have any thoughts, ever see anything like this before ? Any thought what it is worth "as is"? Any thoughts re alternatives for repairs

addendum:
I took off the rubber bellows and can see that the metal gimbals are broken ( metal looked like it had snapped in two). Explains why the stick wobbles.
The broken screw on the base of the throttle is one of the four that are at the 4 corners near the rubber "feet". Looks like the remaining portion of the screw may have to be tapped and unscrewed or drilled out to get the base plate off if need be.

I DON"T want to give this up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been using my CH stuff since 1996 and love the fact that it seems bullet proof (the one problem I had early on the company cross shipped a replacement and couldn't have been nicer to deal with !) But God, the difference in the feel between the 2 sticks and throttles.
Maybe if I was playing a Predator Drone sim the CH would be more realistic, but not when you are "flying" an F16!

Does anyone know if replacement gimbals are available?

I know about the FSSB replacement and that may be the way to go, but at 320 euros it is a bit pricey, considering I paid 250 plus shipping for basically a broken stick.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Think I should cross post this elsewhere? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

If it is only the metal gimbals that are broken, What do people think a "fair" price for what I have would be?

Thanks, Jon

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3719259 - 01/16/13 09:50 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Is that US$? Pretty expensive for the damage, I would say. If he had been up-front with the damage and you were intending to upgrade to FSSB or FCC, then fair enough as you knew what you were getting and IMHO only the buyer can gauge the "true value" of the item is for himself, but from what I understand, you were misled --- I'd return the stick. There will be more and better Cougars that will come up.

I would not be keen on "passing it forward" with this unit as well, not unless YOU want to be up-front with any potential buyers, which would obviously lower the value/price of the Cougar.

Granted there are mods that you can put in to "fix" the stick, an UBERNXT2 mod comes to mind depending on the damage, but like I said, for that money, I'd be expecting more and I would send it back and demand a full refund including shipping costs for the deception. If you paid via credit card or Paypal, you may want to start a case as well.

Good luck!


- Ice
#3719449 - 01/17/13 03:44 AM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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I honestly would send that back and would be requesting a refund. Broken gimbals is not a "Thrustmaster cougar that was represented as being in excellent condition". The only course you can go now if you decide to bite the bullet, is spend more money on replacement pieces, or look for another Cougar.


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#3719493 - 01/17/13 05:50 AM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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jwardell Offline
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Does anyone know if replacement gimbals are available from thrustmaster or any other source still?

#3719545 - 01/17/13 09:56 AM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Best way would to ask TM directly. So far I've only got pots and switches and cables from them.

I am curious though --- why aren't you returning the Cougar? Used Cougars come up for sale every now and again, if memory serves I've seen at least 4 last year (2012) being sold off in the UK alone, at least 2 in the USA, and that's just from SimHQ, BMS, and eBay sites. 2011 also had a few. So even if you return your Cougar, there **will** be others for sale.

Also curious, how much damage are we talking about? Some pics would be helpful.


- Ice
#3719567 - 01/17/13 12:35 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Originally Posted By: jwardell
Does anyone know if replacement gimbals are available from thrustmaster or any other source still?

They were available last year. I got a replacement gimbal set (1x Upper / 1x Lower) for $15.00 including shipping.

Send an inquiry and they'll initiate a reference number to order them by.

Thrustmaster's service was excellent.

plug_nickel

#3719593 - 01/17/13 01:43 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Bluedeath Offline
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where are you located? I still have the original gimbals and pots (I have FCC now and I am not going back since i use the cougar only with BMS falcon) though there is a little bit of play, if you are interested i just need to cover shipping costs.

Last edited by Bluedeath; 01/17/13 01:46 PM.

"When you plan revenge best dig two graves" Confucius
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
#3719651 - 01/17/13 03:39 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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He has offered to take it back for a full refund including shipping ( he had also included at no cost a stack of old PC flight sim games, Falcon 4, Longbow 2, jane's wwII fighters, jane's F15, EF200,. mig alley and Il2 plus the il2 gold pack when he originally sent it to me). He said send it back for a full refund and just keep all of the games!
I mentioned to him that if he truly didn't realize the stick was damaged ( he hadn't used it for years ) and it was possible to repair it for a reasonable price I would offer to pay him something for it. And then go ahead and try and fix it. I'm not sure I would want to pay the 3-400 dollars for a FSB type replacement ( though I might down the road). For now I would look at either used parts, parts from thrustmaster or the modded stuff. I just don't know how much to offer him if I decide to keep it.
He also mentioned that he did not now know if I was scamming him and had taken out the good parts and replaced them with damaged parts! Honestly, the possibility of him considering that hadn't occurred to me.
But I instinctively did not want to take it apart at first to see what was wrong just so there would be no room to accuse me of causing the damage. I e-mailed him within 24 hrs of receiving it after I had a chance to look at it after work and realized there were problems.
I've included a picture of the broken gimbal. I still don't want to completely dissassemble the stick until I decide if I'm just going to send it back or if I'm going to offer some thing for it "as is".
I think he's honest and his last e-mail said deither send it back for a full refund or pay me what I think is fair ( he mentioned that he considered just eating the whole thing and refunding all of my money and letting me keep the whole thing but then he brought up the point that maybe I was scamming him and that he would then be "giving in to the scam" . I think this was a bad deal for both of us. I honestly think he thought it was in great shape and I know I wasn't scamming him. Part of me wants to offer him something for it and try and fix but then I think, I haven't checked out anything else. What if the electronics are shot as well?
I honestly don't know what to do. On the one hand I see used cougars on e-bay, amazon and here come up and usually on e-bay they are asking 2-300.00 US dollars for supposedly sticks in great condition, I've also seen fully modded sticks going for 900-1000.00

I live outside of Sacramento , Calif.




#3719837 - 01/17/13 07:46 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Bluedeath Offline
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Shipping from here to you is around 42 euros and my gimbals are ok but not new.

Last edited by Bluedeath; 01/17/13 07:47 PM.

"When you plan revenge best dig two graves" Confucius
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
#3719948 - 01/17/13 10:25 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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I wouldn't touch that HOTAS anymore if it was me. And if he's offering full refund, I'd take it and wash my hands of the matter completely and chalk this up as a learning experience. I would return all the games too just to show I'm no scammer, though I would seriously offer him a fair price for that Falcon 4 biggrin biggrin biggrin

These are the problems you know NOW, what happens when you open up the HOTAS and find even more threaded screws and broken items? Gimbals may be easy to find from modded Cougar owners, but what about other, more-obscure items? Best to return that Cougar now that you've confirmed it's much more of a lemon than your "average Cougar" and cut your losses while the seller is being reasonable.

I am wondering as well, what kind of impact or usage would get the gimbal assembly to break? I've thrown my old Cougar around when flying but it didn't break...

BTW, check PM!


- Ice
#3720168 - 01/18/13 03:58 AM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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jwardell Offline
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Ice- I'm beginning to think your advice is the right course of action. I truly believe he didn't know about the damage. The box it came in had no external damage. I know I didn't do it. So how did it happen? Maybe his kid knocked it off the shelf and it landed on the stick base, breaking the metal gimbal. The kid puts it back on the shelf and doesn't tell dad. If it hit that hard did it also take out the PCB? Is there something with the throttle as well? Mechanically it seems ok but since I haven't hooked it up, what if there are problems with the throttle as well?
I registered with thrustmaster so I could communicate with technical support and I sent them the pictures I took of the broken portion of the Gimbal. They wanted me to open it up completely and take more pictures so they could identify what/how much needed to be replaced. I've been reluctant to do anything invasive ( though my initial impulse was to pull out the tool kit and open up the stick base and see if it was something simple, but I didn't because I didn't want to give any reason to think I may have caused the damage).
Most of the titles he sent I already had a copy of. As far as Falcon 4 goes it is just the CD in a jewel case.
I am fortunate to have TWO copies of the original Falcon 4 in the three ring binder. I have the original I bought when first released and a second copy I found used. I'm pretty sure the second copy is complete including maps etc.
If you are interested in it, How much do you think it would cost to send across the pond? I'm in California.
If you're jones'in for a copy, it's yours.
Last time I asked for help getting an old sim to run on this forum someone sent me TWO voodoo 2 add on cards to try and get my EF2000 install back running in original 3dFx mode ( stupid me, I got rid of my original gaming box with a monster 1 3DFx add in card that ran EF2000 like butter, "Trondheim Control, you are cleared to take off on runway 2............" I thought my more recent gaming box with a Voodoo 5500 video card would handle all of the old glide games, not so with EF2000. One of the two Voodoo cards arrived damaged and I couldn't get the single card running without removing the 5500 card and replacing it with a simple old school 2-d video card, Since I was using the box at the time to fly Longbow 2 I didn't want to tear it down since it was running Longbow 2 so well without glide wrapper etc.
To make a long story short, he sent me the 2 Voodoo 2 card for free, even paying the shipping!
So I believe in paying forward. I'll give back the way I was given. Just ask.

PS thanks for the PM but I'm afraid with the shipping from Europe to USA the cost of your friend's Cougar would be about what this flail has already cost me.
Again Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. I think I'm thinking with my heart and not my head on this one. The quality control of the Cougar may be suspect but man, do they feel nice in the hand!!!!

Last edited by jwardell; 01/18/13 04:00 AM.
#3720302 - 01/18/13 09:14 AM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Bluedeath Offline
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BTW looking at the broken part it looks like metal fatigue.


"When you plan revenge best dig two graves" Confucius
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety" Benjamin Franklin
#3720403 - 01/18/13 02:35 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Send it back and count your blessings that he's acting in a reputable manner.

Looking at the screens, it does look like metal fatigue and you'd need to test the pcb to ensure it hasn't shorted out as well from all the debris.

plug_nickel

#3720559 - 01/18/13 07:08 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Thanks for the offer of Falcon 4 but I got myself a copy of it all for the cost of shipping from a kind member from SimHQ! Please keep your copies of Falcon 4 and share/give/sell with other simmers should the occasion arise. I believe in paying it forward as well; lots of guys in this forum and others over the world wide web have given their time and effort to help me out one way or another and now I, too, am giving back what I can to others. biggrin

Regarding the course of action, I will say that there is a slim chance you can open that Cougar up and source everything you need to get it repaired to like-new or even-better-than-new. However, I don't buy lottery tickets so IMHO this doesn't sit well with me especially after paying good money. I will say there is a bigger chance of a better Cougar coming along down the line if you keep a keen eye out.

I wonder how you've read my PM without it being registered as read in the PM page.... probably via email alert? Anyway, I just thought you would be interested and always won't hurt to investigate how much shipping will cost. The only upside of this Cougar is that it is cheap and is coming from a fellow simmer who can give evidence as to the true condition of the Cougar. I see Sapper has his Cougar up for sale too but it is more expensive and again is on this side of the pond.... but at least you have options.

With regards to the "feel" of the Cougar, I wonder why you are not in the market for a Warthog? Costs about the same, but works right out of the box and comes with a warranty too. The pinky toggle switch on my WH throttle is a bit loose --- still works but I have to verify that the switch is thrown by looking at my wings to confirm my lights are out, else I have to wiggle the switch a bit. Anyway, told WH about this and sent me a new one pronto!

Myself, I love the plug-and-play reliability of the Warthog, but I also have a UberNXT2-modded Cougar which I hope to mod the throttle to move/function like the real F-16 throttle, but this project is for a good few years down the line.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you decide regarding that Cougar!


- Ice
#3720639 - 01/18/13 09:08 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Thanks to everyone on this thread.
I emailed the seller last night basically expressing my concern that there may be too much damage to repair. I offered to buy it from him for a lesser amount and pay the original shipping charge or to return it to him.
He replied this am suggesting that I just keep it and he would refund the entire amount I paid including the shipping on the condition that I take it apart and photo the inside and send him copies to try and figure out how it happened. I'll send the photos to Thrustmaster and see what they say and if possible rehab it.
I've always wanted one ever since I started with Falcon 4. I know the Warthog and like it very much and will probably be getting one as well but I will wait to set that up until I get a computer set up that can do A-10 proud.
Sometimes I am amazed by the brotherhood of simmers.
Everyone I have had contact with through these forums are so helpful and such good people.
Maybe more people ought to sim, maybe it's therapeutic and the world would be a nicer place! ( alternatively, maybe nice people gravitate towards simming and communities such as this !).
Any way I'll keep people posted.
I now know what I'm doing tomorrow. Time to break out the tool kit and the camera.

P.S. I have already got confirmation from Amazon that they have refunded the full amount back to my credit card.

Jon

#3720696 - 01/18/13 11:12 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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Very nice that your seller is willing to cooperate. Best of luck with the new "project," and do post lots and lots and lots of pictures. Somewhere down the line, someone will benefit from whatever you learn here.

PS.. The WH works fine in Falcon 4 too!


- Ice
#3721164 - 01/19/13 09:45 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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I disassembled the cougar. It looks like the gimbals failed in several places. The metal just sheared off.
I'll include pictures.

Nothing else seems damaged , though I suppose the sensors could have been damaged as well.
I was going to open the throttle and check it's internal as well. Remember one of the 4 outer screws is broken off in place.
I undid the remaining three and the base plate still doesn't want to come off.
Do you have to remove the 4 smaller screws more centrally located in the base plate as well? Remove the handle?
Does anyone have any links to pictures or video of the disassemble of the throttle?
Thanks in advance!

Jon

#3721166 - 01/19/13 09:48 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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more pics

#3721168 - 01/19/13 09:53 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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ditto

#3721170 - 01/19/13 09:55 PM Re: Help with mechanical problems with a Thrustmaster Cougar [Re: jwardell]  
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ditto

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