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#3703743 - 12/21/12 01:19 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka ***** [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


AAR like this...
Click to reveal..

Practice target:
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1

ZSU-23-4V1

00:01:31 ZSU-23-4V1 opened fire by all tubes.
Target distance: 2112m
Target azimuth: 251
Target elevation: 3
Tu: 3.9s

00:01:34 ZSU-23-4V1 closed fire, and shot 172pcs.


00:01:38 Practice target Meteor-1 killed by OFZT.


yes thumbsup
what is Tu: 3.9s.... time of firing? you hold space key for 3.9s biggrin ????

Last edited by farokh; 12/21/12 01:30 PM.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3703801 - 12/21/12 02:19 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: farokh]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


AAR like this...
Click to reveal..

Practice target:
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1

ZSU-23-4V1

00:01:31 ZSU-23-4V1 opened fire by all tubes.
Target distance: 2112m
Target azimuth: 251
Target elevation: 3
Tu: 3.9s

00:01:34 ZSU-23-4V1 closed fire, and shot 172pcs.


00:01:38 Practice target Meteor-1 killed by OFZT.


yes thumbsup
what is Tu: 3.9s.... time of firing? you hold space key for 3.9s biggrin ????


No!

Read back for the Tu instrument.
Its one of the most important instrument of the SRP...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3686101/ZSU_23_4V1_Shilka_work_in_prog.html#Post3686101

As a Zeus commander, you will concentrate on the Tu instrument, like him...

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/21/12 02:37 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3703967 - 12/21/12 06:17 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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Still concerned about 100% lethality of the whole fuselage (with BZT) and of the whole airframe (with OFZ)...

Not a thoroughly sourced document (struggling to find anything ~ I'll have to boot up my really old machines and see if I archived documents that I found a few years ago...), but although this was from a 'less than reliable' site, the conclusions are plausible, and there is a question mark about 'why develop' or 'prefer' the 2S6 or ZSU 37-2 with their higher calibre weapons if the 23mm shell is so very lethal.

From Tunguska development history:
Quote:
Studies were conducted and demonstrated that a 30 mm cannon would require two-to-three times fewer shells to destroy a given target than the 23 mm cannon of the ZSU-23-4, and that firing at a MiG-17 (or similarly at, in case of war, NATO's Hawker Hunter or Fiat G.91) flying at 300 m/s, with an identical mass of 30 mm projectiles would result in a kill probability of 1.5 times greater than with 23 mm projectiles. An increase in the maximum engagement altitude from 2,000 to 4,000 m and increased effectiveness when engaging lightly armoured ground targets were also cited.


Note that 30mm rounds are ~ 2x as heavy as 23mm, so lethality is expected to be 3x per round (for both accuracy and destructiveness together).

The TRADOC on the ZSU indicates (although only for optical guidance) that a 500m straight and level F4 would be destroyed only 1/6 of the time by a 40 rd burst at minimal range, falling to only 13% at 1000m and 7% at 2000m. Not sure how many rounds would be expected to hit in each case which would have an impact on the per-round lethality... but I'd expect at least 'several' at the closer distances.

#3703969 - 12/21/12 06:18 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Apr 2012
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farokh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


AAR like this...
Click to reveal..

Practice target:
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1

ZSU-23-4V1

00:01:31 ZSU-23-4V1 opened fire by all tubes.
Target distance: 2112m
Target azimuth: 251
Target elevation: 3
Tu: 3.9s

00:01:34 ZSU-23-4V1 closed fire, and shot 172pcs.


00:01:38 Practice target Meteor-1 killed by OFZT.


yes thumbsup
what is Tu: 3.9s.... time of firing? you hold space key for 3.9s biggrin ????


No!

Read back for the Tu instrument.
Its one of the most important instrument of the SRP...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3686101/ZSU_23_4V1_Shilka_work_in_prog.html#Post3686101

As a Zeus commander, you will concentrate on the Tu instrument, like him...

... huge instruments biggrin

would you create countdown for release date... pelase sir? CT
...12 months wating is enough sir salute

Last edited by farokh; 12/21/12 06:27 PM.
#3703992 - 12/21/12 06:43 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
Still concerned about 100% lethality of the whole fuselage (with BZT) and of the whole airframe (with OFZ)...

Not a thoroughly sourced document (struggling to find anything ~ I'll have to boot up my really old machines and see if I archived documents that I found a few years ago...), but although this was from a 'less than reliable' site, the conclusions are plausible, and there is a question mark about 'why develop' or 'prefer' the 2S6 or ZSU 37-2 with their higher calibre weapons if the 23mm shell is so very lethal.

From Tunguska development history:
Quote:
Studies were conducted and demonstrated that a 30 mm cannon would require two-to-three times fewer shells to destroy a given target than the 23 mm cannon of the ZSU-23-4, and that firing at a MiG-17 (or similarly at, in case of war, NATO's Hawker Hunter or Fiat G.91) flying at 300 m/s, with an identical mass of 30 mm projectiles would result in a kill probability of 1.5 times greater than with 23 mm projectiles. An increase in the maximum engagement altitude from 2,000 to 4,000 m and increased effectiveness when engaging lightly armoured ground targets were also cited.


Note that 30mm rounds are ~ 2x as heavy as 23mm, so lethality is expected to be 3x per round (for both accuracy and destructiveness together).

The TRADOC on the ZSU indicates (although only for optical guidance) that a 500m straight and level F4 would be destroyed only 1/6 of the time by a 40 rd burst at minimal range, falling to only 13% at 1000m and 7% at 2000m. Not sure how many rounds would be expected to hit in each case which would have an impact on the per-round lethality... but I'd expect at least 'several' at the closer distances.


I used to laugh on US materials referring Soviet air defense systems...
(just check US material on SA-2 ...)

We will simulate only radar guided fire here:
- against helicopters, or slow planes you expected to achieve kill in 5~10 shots per tube. (from all 4)
- against fast planes, or missiles you expected to achieve kill in 10~50 shots per tube. (from all 4)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3704016 - 12/21/12 07:21 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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Any thought about how or why the 30x165 is 3x as lethal as the 23*152?


While this is for a somewhat less lethal 20mm round, I'd expect to see a 'lethality' proportion somewhere in the same ballpark (generally lethal ranges increase with the cube root of weight, both for immediate blast effects and lethal fragment numbers ~ the larger round does have a significant increase in maximum penetration of armour/structures due to blast and fragments very close to the burst.

There will be an increase in area covered for each impact location, and also an increase in the damage caused to structures within this area, but I doubt that this comes close to 'complete' lethality.





Last edited by Lieste; 12/21/12 07:44 PM. Reason: Added Image
#3704117 - 12/21/12 11:16 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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Came to wish all here a marry Christmas!

I look forward to the shilka!

#3704329 - 12/22/12 05:37 AM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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I hope the New Year will release a bit boring!

#3704396 - 12/22/12 09:22 AM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
Any thought about how or why the 30x165 is 3x as lethal as the 23*152?


While this is for a somewhat less lethal 20mm round, I'd expect to see a 'lethality' proportion somewhere in the same ballpark (generally lethal ranges increase with the cube root of weight, both for immediate blast effects and lethal fragment numbers ~ the larger round does have a significant increase in maximum penetration of armour/structures due to blast and fragments very close to the burst.

There will be an increase in area covered for each impact location, and also an increase in the damage caused to structures within this area, but I doubt that this comes close to 'complete' lethality.

Click to reveal..




Would be interesting to know the weight of explosive that 30mm HEI round carries, as it has relation to the blasted fragments killing distance...
... also FAP has considerably less penetration capability than a solid BZT. (my guess is that at 900m range, the BZT would simply go through the F-16, and do not forget its incendiary filler...)

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/22/12 11:56 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3704415 - 12/22/12 10:52 AM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: farokh]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: farokh
Click to reveal..
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: farokh
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


AAR like this...
[spoiler]
Practice target:
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1
Meteor-1

ZSU-23-4V1

00:01:31 ZSU-23-4V1 opened fire by all tubes.
Target distance: 2112m
Target azimuth: 251
Target elevation: 3
Tu: 3.9s

00:01:34 ZSU-23-4V1 closed fire, and shot 172pcs.


00:01:38 Practice target Meteor-1 killed by OFZT.


yes thumbsup
what is Tu: 3.9s.... time of firing? you hold space key for 3.9s biggrin ????


No!

Read back for the Tu instrument.
Its one of the most important instrument of the SRP...

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3686101/ZSU_23_4V1_Shilka_work_in_prog.html#Post3686101

As a Zeus commander, you will concentrate on the Tu instrument, like him...

... huge instruments biggrin [/spoiler]

would you create countdown for release date... pelase sir? CT
...12 months wating is enough sir salute


No countdown.

The code is basically ready, but needs more testing.
The documentation writing is not started at all.

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/22/12 11:55 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3704450 - 12/22/12 01:41 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 2,727
Lieste Online sigh
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Numbers for some indicative rounds:

Quote:
Calibre, Mass, HEI filling mass, HEI filling % (of metal weight), MV, KE @ muzzle, Total Energy @ muzzle (est)

14.5mm, .0644kg, 0kg, 0%, 1000m/s, 32.2kJ, 32.2kJ (BS)
20mm, .101kg, .0105kg, 10.4%, 1030m/s, 53.6kJ, 95.6kJ (M50 series HEI)
23mm, .184kg, .019kg, 10.33%, 980m/s, 88.4kJ, 164.4kJ ZSU
25mm, .18kg, .032kg, 17.8%, 1100m/s, 108.9kJ, 236.9kJ M792
30mm, .388kg, .011kg, 2.84%, 960m/s, 178.8kJ, 222.8kJ 30x165 Waisted HEI
30mm, .39kg, .0485kg, 12.44%, 960m/s, 179.7kJ, 373.7kJ 30x165 HEI
30mm, .33kg, .0825kg, 25%, 860m/s, 122kJ, 452kJ 30x184 HE(M) WW2 Cannon
35mm, .55kg, .112kg, 20.36%, 1180m/s, 382.9kJ, 830.9kJ Gepard HEI
40mm, .96kg, .115kg, 11.98%, 1005m/s, 484.8kJ, 944.8kJ Bofors L/70 HEI
57mm, 2.85kg, .154kg, 5.4%, 1000m/s, 1425kJ, 2041kJ S60 HE
57mm, 2.4kg, .45kg, 18.75%, 1020m/s, 1248kJ, 3048kJ Bofors HC HE



As for BZT being superior because it will 'pass right through', that is irrelevant ~ the lateral spread is lower than for a FAP round, and that will itself commonly exit the majority of fragments through and through. Retaining a single 'fragment' is not conducive to superior SSKP, though it may destroy rather than damage a critical component that *is* struck.

With good shot placement, any of these rounds can kill an aircraft with a single hit... the difference is the range of vulnerable components (eg 57mm *can* cause a general structural failure, while 14.5mm is relatively more likely to damage a critical component within the structure).

The available 'critical' list increases with warhead size, and also the permissible 'miss distance' within (or in proximity to) the structure. When the round doesn't ricochet (possible with very oblique impacts) and the fuse functions correctly (it may fuse externally on impact (halving (or more) the effect of exlosives), or may pass through the aircraft before fusing (ADEN rounds often had this problem when fired at fighters) leaving little more than a slightly over calibre hole in many cases.

I don't suggest that you model each 'wrinkle' of lethality, but considering all hits 'kills' from a .184kg 10% warhead is optimistic in the extreme.

#3704614 - 12/22/12 06:22 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
Numbers for some indicative rounds:
Click to reveal..

Quote:
Calibre, Mass, HEI filling mass, HEI filling % (of metal weight), MV, KE @ muzzle, Total Energy @ muzzle (est)

14.5mm, .0644kg, 0kg, 0%, 1000m/s, 32.2kJ, 32.2kJ (BS)
20mm, .101kg, .0105kg, 10.4%, 1030m/s, 53.6kJ, 95.6kJ (M50 series HEI)
23mm, .184kg, .019kg, 10.33%, 980m/s, 88.4kJ, 164.4kJ ZSU
25mm, .18kg, .032kg, 17.8%, 1100m/s, 108.9kJ, 236.9kJ M792
30mm, .388kg, .011kg, 2.84%, 960m/s, 178.8kJ, 222.8kJ 30x165 Waisted HEI
30mm, .39kg, .0485kg, 12.44%, 960m/s, 179.7kJ, 373.7kJ 30x165 HEI
30mm, .33kg, .0825kg, 25%, 860m/s, 122kJ, 452kJ 30x184 HE(M) WW2 Cannon
35mm, .55kg, .112kg, 20.36%, 1180m/s, 382.9kJ, 830.9kJ Gepard HEI
40mm, .96kg, .115kg, 11.98%, 1005m/s, 484.8kJ, 944.8kJ Bofors L/70 HEI
57mm, 2.85kg, .154kg, 5.4%, 1000m/s, 1425kJ, 2041kJ S60 HE
57mm, 2.4kg, .45kg, 18.75%, 1020m/s, 1248kJ, 3048kJ Bofors HC HE



As for BZT being superior because it will 'pass right through', that is irrelevant ~ the lateral spread is lower than for a FAP round, and that will itself commonly exit the majority of fragments through and through. Retaining a single 'fragment' is not conducive to superior SSKP, though it may destroy rather than damage a critical component that *is* struck.


BZT is superior, as it not only pass through anything below 2cm RHA, but will ignite it also.

Originally Posted By: Lieste
With good shot placement, any of these rounds can kill an aircraft with a single hit... the difference is the range of vulnerable components (eg 57mm *can* cause a general structural failure, while 14.5mm is relatively more likely to damage a critical component within the structure).

The available 'critical' list increases with warhead size, and also the permissible 'miss distance' within (or in proximity to) the structure. When the round doesn't ricochet (possible with very oblique impacts) and the fuse functions correctly (it may fuse externally on impact (halving (or more) the effect of exlosives), or may pass through the aircraft before fusing (ADEN rounds often had this problem when fired at fighters) leaving little more than a slightly over calibre hole in many cases.

I don't suggest that you model each 'wrinkle' of lethality, but considering all hits 'kills' from a .184kg 10% warhead is optimistic in the extreme.


Disagree.

I work from Shilka Commander's Firing Manual (and with the help of the Hungarian Shilka firing range "Dregelypalank" exCommander), that might disagree with the commonly available material from the net.
(as usual)
thumbsup

ps: increasing the caliber of an AAA system is usually done to extend its range...
... reducing it, is done to increase its firing rate.

ps2: Im happy to increase the fidelity of the SAM simulator, based on real Military manuals (not some website sources), as was done earlier, with other SAM systems.

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/22/12 08:46 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3705034 - 12/23/12 01:53 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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dear hpasp... u said shilkas code is ready ,,, so you can fire on several targets on your PC
.
.
.
could you create one little demo from inside of shilka? please wave2

Last edited by farokh; 12/23/12 01:54 PM.
#3706393 - 12/25/12 09:04 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Manual writing is ongoing...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3706805 - 12/26/12 07:05 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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Uh oh, please no calculus or algebra, I am very bad at math.

#3707075 - 12/27/12 09:22 AM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: jazjar]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazjar
Uh oh, please no calculus or algebra, I am very bad at math.


All artillery troop has to be very good in geometry.
biggrin

PS: You will look at the H, Ty, Phi, Betha-y instruments at the Commander's seat all the time during battle.
(Is nice if you understand what are these...)
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/27/12 09:25 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3707082 - 12/27/12 10:09 AM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: jazjar
Uh oh, please no calculus or algebra, I am very bad at math.


All artillery troop has to be very good in geometry.
biggrin

PS: You will look at the H, Ty, Phi, Betha-y instruments at the Commander's seat all the time during battle.
(Is nice if you understand what are these...)
biggrin


when us during to set insrtuments manually target can pass us dizzy

hpasp how this is possible?
are u sure? we have to set all instruments manually during target comming with 1mach to us matrix

Last edited by farokh; 12/27/12 10:10 AM.
#3707341 - 12/27/12 07:47 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: farokh]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Please read the text on the picture again...
Click to reveal..

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/27/12 07:51 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3707348 - 12/27/12 07:58 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Lieste]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Lieste
Still concerned about 100% lethality of the whole fuselage (with BZT) and of the whole airframe (with OFZ)...


Hi Lieste,

We done some research on the Hungarian forum and here:
http://a4skyhawk.org/files/gallery/Complete%20Casualty%20Records

so the model is corrected to the following:

BZT - anywhere on the airframe is considered as a hit. (several hits cause a kill)
OFZT - considered as a hit, just the sensitive places of the jet body will cause kill.

Here you can find OFZT hit on the A-4 bump after the cockpit.
http://a4skyhawk.org/6e3/html/vm31169b.htm
http://a4skyhawk.org/6e3/html/vm31169c.htm
http://a4skyhawk.org/6e3/html/vm31169d.htm
The OFZT knocked the whole bump element away, and sprayed the air intake upper part with shrapnels. (caused by the arming delay)

thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/27/12 08:18 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3707383 - 12/27/12 09:18 PM Re: ZSU-23-4V1 Shilka [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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piston79  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,833
Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Hi Lieste,

We done some research on the Hungarian forum and here:
http://a4skyhawk.org/files/gallery/Complete%20Casualty%20Records

so the model is corrected to the following:

BZT - anywhere on the airframe is considered as a hit. (several hits cause a kill)
OFZT - considered as a hit, just the sensitive places of the jet body will cause kill.


Well done, Lieste!!! "Relistic to the switch (and to the shrapnel)!" wink

How about planes with couple of hits to change their course away of the battle? Looking of the Skyhawk pictures that's the only logical choice for the man inside...

Last edited by piston79; 12/27/12 09:51 PM.
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