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#3693179 - 12/05/12 04:05 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge *** [Re: eno75]  
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^^^ Anti-Skid off?

woot

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#3693191 - 12/05/12 04:32 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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I fly the dash-1 normal procedure (or short field if need be) and it works out for me. I'm not saying that other ideas won't have positive effects on landing performance, but they usually sacrifice other desirable factors like workload, fault tolerance, safety margin, wear and tear, etc. I've never found the published procedure insufficient for any sane maneuver.

X-Ray the speedbrakes do not extend automatically. You absolutely want to hold that switch for a few seconds on the three point attitude to make sure they open fully. The 80-100% ground SB range is accessible when the left MG squat switch is triggered. The minimum run landing procedure has you select 100% SB while still in the 2-point attitude.

Another tip that isn't mentioned too often is (I think is in the -1) is to hold fully back on the stick once it is no longer possible to rotate the airplane. The elevators are huge drag surfaces and pressing the tires into the runway aids in their traction for braking.

#3693193 - 12/05/12 04:36 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: Wrecking Crew]  
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Yes. It still used up alot of energy though ha ha.
Originally Posted By: Wrecking Crew
^^^ Anti-Skid off?

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Last edited by Allizdog1000; 12/05/12 04:45 AM.
#3693205 - 12/05/12 05:03 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Wow - just finished up a good night's simming in Nuke Plant and then Thunder Of Kojori.

No disconnects! Nice!

Thunder is still running. See some things that are different - need to fix AI a/c behaviour so they go to Williams Field instead of attacking everything in sight. But then, that's what the F-15Cs are in there for. smile


I had to leave before Nuke Plant was finished, and I got back just after the guys had won the mission. The mission reloaded but in Pause mode - I need to check to see if the reload trigger is set to the right mission - that may be the reason the mission did not reload properly.

WC

#3693211 - 12/05/12 05:12 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Here are two tracks of me landing at the short runway at Gelenzdhik both extremely heavy (46,000 lbs) and very light (no stores, about 1800 lb fuel). Even in the heavy case, I am able to make the final turn at the end of the runway no problem, with light to medium use of the brakes (not sure why I'm having directional problems once I use the brakes, something new with the controller). In the light case, I barely need to use the brakes at all, and that's on a 5900ft runway!

http://www.2gvsap.org/einstein/attach/landings_at_g.zip

There are two key things to watch during your approach (without going over an entire "official" procedure!). Glideslope and AoA.

Glideslope is the angle which your aircraft descends (not plummets!) to the runway. Aim for 3°. Most modern airfields have some sort of approach lighting system (PAPI, VASI, etc.) that gives the pilot an immediate visual cue as to where they are with respect to the glideslope, but in the A-10C, we have a HUD graduated in 5° increments. Put the touchdown section of the runway halfway between the horizon line and the 5° mark and you're at 2.5° - pretty darn close for guesswork and good enough for an approach. For airfields that have ILS, you can tune your radio to the runway's localizer/glideslope, switch your nav panel to INS mode and enable the guidebars, and you'll get a good indication of the 3° glideslope on the HSI.

Once the gear are down, angle of attack (AoA) indexer on the left side of the HUD indicates whether or not the aircraft's AoA is correct for landing. Too fast and the angle of attack will be too low and the "up" arrow will light up, indicating the pilot needs to raise their nose to reduce airspeed and increase angle of attack. Too slow and the angle of attack will be too high and the "down" arrow will light, telling the pilot to drop the nose and pick up airspeed. Just right and the circle will light up. The goal is to have a steady circle light throughout the approach up until the flare.

Applying full flaps during the approach will increase the aircraft's L/D ratio, decrease the stall speed (thus reducing the required approach and then touchdown speed), and decrease the required pitch angle to maintain the approach angle of attack (i.e., nose is further down so the pilot can see the runway better!). Keeping the speedbrakes about halfway open (da book says 40%, but there's no way to accurately judge that in the cockpit) means you'll have a higher throttle setting for the same approach airspeed, which means the engines won't have to spool up as far if you need to execute a go around - just close the airbrakes for an instant reduction in net drag!

Gear are also helpful to have put down some time before landing! wink Actually, the earlier you have them down (and the speedbrakes open) the better, as that gives you that much more time to set the throttle and pitch attitude to maintain your approach airspeed and glideslope.

You can learn more about approach procedures, traffic pattern altitudes, descent profiles, gear/flaps/speedbrake deployment profiles, etc., but keep just those two items above in mind, maintain smooth and controlled inputs to the aircraft and you'll do just fine.

Watch the tracks I provided, hit "take control" and try it yourself.


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#3693401 - 12/05/12 04:03 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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This morning Thunder was showing about 3 hours into the mission but when I refreshed the MP Lobby the time did not change, so I figured it was Paused.

I wonder how it could show 3 hours and be Paused?


I went into the editor and made sure the reload trigger was pointing at the right mission (this must be set when the missions are transferred over to Eno's Firehouse).

I did start it about an hour ago so it should be running - and when it is over it should reset on its own.

WC

#3693449 - 12/05/12 05:09 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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When performing a short field landing, purcedure is as follows: Gear down, full flaps, slowest controlable airspeed, upone touch down, smothly applie brakes, while reducing flaps to zero and continue to apply back pressure, which aids in aerodynamic braking and puts all weight to main wheel brakes. As tought by me too student pilots and taken from airplane flight manuals. Use this meathod with the A-10 and you'll never run off the runway. old_simmer

#3693534 - 12/05/12 07:29 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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If we're using antecdotal arguments, I was taught to leave the flaps down for short field landings in both tricycle gear and tailwheel aircraft. My checkride in the Cessna 140 included a short landing on a dusty dirt road, and the examiner made no comment about me leaving the flaps down during rollout.

On teh interwebs, I'm seeing a number of recommendations of this "raise the flaps to reduce stopping distance" method, but the only justification for doing so is to "add weight on wheels to improve braking", but there's no quantification of how much "weight" is gained, what the difference in stopping distance is, or how the runway surface affects this method. There's also no mention of how the loss in drag from raising the flaps affects the stopping distance, further adding to my skepticism.

I'm not buying it without real data or a description of the entire physics.


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#3693538 - 12/05/12 07:36 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Along with what has been said...


Short field landings are about finesse and balance. It all starts with proper approach.
- Setup final descent with obstacles and wind taken into consideration.
- It is a power on approach, balancing the pitch of your nose with your throttle.
- Shoot for airspeed to be in the realm of 5-10 KIAS above stall horn. For small aircraft the FAA says 1.3Vs0 (1.3* stall speed)
- You want to have a steep descent because it will require less forward momentum (ground speed) to bleed off.
- As you round out, the air frame will absorb some energy and transfer the remainder forward.
- During that transfer of energy, you will lose airspeed and have to increase throttle.
- Too much throttle will increase your ground speed and cause you to land long.
- Don't try to land soft, your goal is to get the plane on the ground as early as possible.
- Dedicate yourself to practice, and be patient

I have a custom mission available with the sole purpose of practicing different types of landings.

the following picture is taken from the AOAP website:


[list]
[*] [*]1

#3693629 - 12/05/12 10:03 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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@EinsteinEP

Then you were tought short field landings wrong and I'm surprised the examiner passed you. I have every POH from a Cessna 120 (no flaps) to a Caravan and ALL say to retract flaps to aid in transfering weight to the main gear brakes. But then again what would my 8900 hrs of instruction given know. Here's a link that has a great explanation of short and soft field landings..http://flighttraining.aopa.org/students/maneuvers/skills/shortsoftlanding.html

old_simmer

#3693635 - 12/05/12 10:14 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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i just wanna go out on a limb and say:

a cessna isnt a A-10 :p, ... just kidding.


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#3693639 - 12/05/12 10:21 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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We gotta try this one day:


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#3693716 - 12/06/12 12:54 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Pretty awesome skills-

On another note I need to bring it to everyone's attention that we need to cut down on some of the language while we are engaged- and that goes for me too. A lot of Guys are playing with normal speakers and some might have little kidlets looking over their shoulder. When it was more closed off to our little community of guys we'd kept a pretty good handle on it but it is getting a bit excessive. In addition I'm sure none of us are interested in jumping on someone every time they slip up on the mic- kind of ruins the mood.

So I'm going to ask politely that we all do our very best to be courteous to all and trim down the language as much as possible. You can swear (and burp) all you want... Just don't hit the ptt button. Let's keep it as clean as we can.

#3693729 - 12/06/12 01:05 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Originally Posted By: eno75
Pretty awesome skills-

On another note I need to bring it to everyone's attention that we need to cut down on some of the language while we are engaged- and that goes for me too. A lot of Guys are playing with normal speakers and some might have little kidlets looking over their shoulder. When it was more closed off to our little community of guys we'd kept a pretty good handle on it but it is getting a bit excessive. In addition I'm sure none of us are interested in jumping on someone every time they slip up on the mic- kind of ruins the mood.

So I'm going to ask politely that we all do our very best to be courteous to all and trim down the language as much as possible. You can swear (and burp) all you want... Just don't hit the ptt button. Let's keep it as clean as we can.



No problem- all my foul language is reserved for attempting to learn to fly the Ka-50, which I'm doing all offline.
wink


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#3693772 - 12/06/12 02:09 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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@Wheel,

That article also doesn't compare the stopping distance with and without raising flaps on touchdown. In your 8900 hours of instruction, surely you've come across those numbers before. Care to share?


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#3693774 - 12/06/12 02:13 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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The best comparison would be achieved on an aircraft equipped with antiskid braking. That way there is no variation for pilot technique or perceived worry of bald spotting a tire (a very expensive thing to do). With anti-skid you could press on the brakes as hard as you wanted and the anti-skid would moderate the braking to the maximum efficiency.

That said - I too learned short field landing techniques in the Cessna by raising the flaps immediately upon touchdown. The cost vs. benefit of the distraction and the possibility of raising the gear in a complex aircraft probably skews toward not doing it out of practicality. Unless you were flying into strips where the margins were so thin that the small stopping performance gain was worth it, it is a technique best taught, recognized, then filed away never to be used again..

wink

BeachAV8R



#3693780 - 12/06/12 02:37 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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Another reason for the 40% SB is if you see a graph of roll authority vs SB %. It has a peak at 40% open. This gives the most roll authority which is good for slow speed handling. The demonstration pilots also use it to get a better roll rate in demos.

#3693792 - 12/06/12 03:16 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted By: Frederf
Another reason for the 40% SB is if you see a graph of roll authority vs SB %. It has a peak at 40% open. This gives the most roll authority which is good for slow speed handling. The demonstration pilots also use it to get a better roll rate in demos.
Interesting! Where can one find a graph like that? I'd love to see them!


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#3693893 - 12/06/12 08:52 AM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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I don't remember where I saw the graph but here's the paragraph from the T.O. 1A-10A-1 (p. 6-1)
Quote:

Roll Control
The ailerons provide satisfactory roll control throughout the flight envelope. Roll response increases with increasing speed brake setting up to approximately 20%, is relatively flat between 20% and 40%, then begins to fall off again until roll response at 80% again equals response at 0% deflection. Roll rates up to 130° per second can be expected with 0% speed brakes at 300 KIAS, and up to 200° per second with 40% speed brakes at 300 KIAS.


Interesting enough the speedbrakes have an effect on the airspeed and altimeter installation error. It must be the air pillow in front of the air data probe on the wingtip forward of the SB on that side. SB closed ASI reads 2-4 knots fast depending on speed. SB 40% reads almost 6 knots fast at 110 knots decreasing to 0 knots fast by about 175 knots. Altitude correction is 50-150' too high depending on SB, speed, and altitude. This is found in the supplement -1-1.

The OCR'd A-10A -1 and -1-1 pdf is darn interdasting.
Found a link courtesy of the kind folks of 476th vFG http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=42

Last edited by Frederf; 12/06/12 08:58 AM.
#3694005 - 12/06/12 03:57 PM Re: Eno's Firehouse and Crew's Hollo Pointe server lounge [Re: eno75]  
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I put up a new version of Thunder Of Kojori last evening, and spent an hour or so in it with Wheel and Molasses.

Everything worked well from a stability aspect - no Client disconnects or server crashes - and it seems like the reload trigger is working right now, so that a reloaded mission is not in Pause (but I have not checked in with the server this morning and won't be able to).

But there is a big frame rate hit problem - soo bad that Mo retired early. I think it is due to the mobile rocket artillery units that come in to Vani and set up across the river from Kutaisi Airbase. These units fire bunches of rockets in volleys every few minutes - and seem to correlate with the frame rate slowdowns.

So tonight I will replace those rocket units with mobile shell artillery - I need to get a new thread in at DCS Forums about this. I hate ripping out stuff in my missions to accommodate DCS issues - these rocket units were not a problem in earlier versions - but we can't have such bad performance that folks leave in disappointment.

Thunder does have Red tankers flying around and they are not causing a problem.

The latest version does un-check the boxes for Scenes and Civ Traffic.

---

On another note re Thunder - there are about 40 enemy a/c who are spossed to land at Williams Field (Tbilisi Airbase) - but not a single one will actually go to Tbilisi - instead they all want to land at Soganlug or Vazaini. I tried a bunch of things but no joy. So when the mission gets to the point where we are spossed to attack the a/c at Williams Field there are none to attack! Yikes! I think I've got a way to overcome that, too...


Geez I spend a lot of frickin time addressing old missions, and not going on to new things. Very frustrating from a mission designer's standpoint.

Wrecking Crew



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