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#3685014 - 11/19/12 07:21 PM SA-6 Gainful  
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wasserfall Offline
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(No; i'm not going to create a topic for every SAM there is; but this one is the next logical step forward)

So here i want to talk about the 2K12 Kub; aka the SA-6 gainful. It was probably one of the most dangerous threats of the 70ies up to the 90ies, even if today it is obsolete, it is credited with around 50 kills; some of them friendly-fire incidents. It's a widespread system and has seen a lot of action


Famous 1973 picture from the Yom Kippur War


Kub in active Hungarian service. Could this be an obstacle to us seeing it here?

It uses the 1S91 Straight Flush radar, looks similar to the Krug's 1S32
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId776539

First and second operator console
Click to reveal..


Third operator console
Click to reveal..


1S91 teleconsole
Click to reveal..

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3685024 - 11/19/12 07:36 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Originally Posted By: wasserfall
(No; i'm not going to create a topic for every SAM there is; but this one is the next logical step forward)

So here i want to talk about the 2K12 Kub; aka the SA-6 gainful. It was probably one of the most dangerous threats of the 70ies up to the 90ies, even if today it is obsolete, it is credited with around 50 kills; some of them friendly-fire incidents. It's a widespread system and has seen a lot of action



A famous target...




Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Kub in active Hungarian service. Could this be an obstacle to us seeing it here?


Exactly.

Originally Posted By: wasserfall
It uses the 1S91 Straight Flush radar, looks similar to the Krug's 1S32


Could not been more different than that...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685031 - 11/19/12 07:46 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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i dont see any abstacle reading

because we want original sa-6 not upgraded......
hungarian air defense can use sa-6 upgraded for ever...because we want use original KUB not upgraded KUB.

(there is so far technology between original KUB and upgraded KUB) yep

Right Hpasp ? biggrin

Last edited by milang; 11/19/12 08:11 PM.
#3685046 - 11/19/12 08:17 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Quote:
Exactly.

Ouch!!

Then let's forget the Kub; what about the 2K12E Kvadrat? It is this version that was exported to the middle east. It would be like simulating only the SA-2F and not the SA-2E. What are you thoughts on this?

#3685052 - 11/19/12 08:27 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Quote:
Exactly.

Ouch!!

Then let's forget the Kub; what about the 2K12E Kvadrat? It is this version that was exported to the middle east. It would be like simulating only the SA-2F and not the SA-2E. What are you thoughts on this?


nope


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685068 - 11/19/12 08:52 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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ugh...
> http://www.zmne.hu/aarms/docs/Volume7/Issue4/pdf/05varg.pdf
> SA-6 is only SAM in Hungarian inventory
> They just had a comprehensive upgrade program
> No replacement on the horizon

I guess we can forget about it.

Last edited by wasserfall; 11/19/12 08:59 PM.
#3685270 - 11/20/12 05:33 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.

#3685303 - 11/20/12 08:05 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.


OSA was never fielded in Hungary...

...hungary had only: SA-2A/B/E/F, SA-3B, SA-4B, SA-5B, SA-6A, SA-7, SA-9, SA-13, SA-16, and recently Mistral.

#3685308 - 11/20/12 08:50 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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little part on upgraded kub in hungary from the

new capabilities of the
hungarian ground base air defense forces



SA6 weapon system modernization list


...........Scale of the upgrade of SA6 fire control radar (Surveillance and Missile Guiding
Station) and launcher is laid in detail on the WZU2 Co. homepage.
10 Main effects of
the modernization and overhaul of this weapon system carried out by WZU2 and
ARZENL Co. in general are as follows:

1. Increased resistance to passive and active interference.

2. Increased detection of low radar cross-section targets.

3. Passive day and night target acquisition with long range thermo visual and
television cameras.

4. Application of IFF (target identification) system (Mark XII Mode 4 standard).

5. Use of advanced spare parts allowing the supply of replacement spare parts
necessary for normal operations.

6. Introduction of advanced methods and algorithms for digital data processing.

7. Enhanced radio electronic camouflage ECCM
xix
8. by application of radar sector
blanking system.

9. Elimination of adjustments and tuning for upgraded systems.

10.Growth capability to launch state-of-the-art (fire and forget) missiles. rolleyes

Integration of dehumidification system.

Air conditioned crew cabin



gyuz ... with this list of modernization , thinking again about sa-6 on samsim is a really waste of time!

Last edited by milang; 11/20/12 09:47 AM.
#3685315 - 11/20/12 09:29 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Or maybe it's so modernised that you can consider it a new weapon system. So SAM simulator can simulate the old SA-6 without giving away any new secrets or capabilities of the new system?

#3685322 - 11/20/12 10:04 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
Or maybe it's so modernised that you can consider it a new weapon system. So SAM simulator can simulate the old SA-6 without giving away any new secrets or capabilities of the new system?


I ran these rounds long ago with the Hungarian authorities.
Not any KUB version is expected in the SAMSIM, while it is in Hungarian service, and until its classification is removed.


Last edited by Hpasp; 11/20/12 10:14 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685328 - 11/20/12 10:29 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.



Hope this put the end mark:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357

#3685332 - 11/20/12 10:35 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

Hope this put the end mark:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357



i could be very happy if you see this page and stay quite seehearspeak

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3606870/331.html

Last edited by milang; 11/20/12 10:36 AM.
#3685342 - 11/20/12 11:02 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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Originally Posted By: milang


i could be very happy if you see this page and stay quite seehearspeak

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3606870/331.html


I've expected to see Unclassified Operating Manuals, but instead I found...YOU?

#3685350 - 11/20/12 11:41 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.



Hope this put the end mark:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357


Aww.

I have SA-8 manuals, but the other two necessities I cannot provide frown

So, I guess after the ZSU-23-4 that's the end of new systems for this simulator? Though I hope Hpasp can give us new missions and bug fixes even if there are no new systems. Maybe one day a mission editor or generator too.

#3685532 - 11/20/12 04:51 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Quote:

I do not really understand your high expectations for a 2K12 KUB (SA-6A) simulator.

It is the most complex, and least user-friendly SAM system, I've ever known.

The NATO code name: "Straight Flush" is pretty much on the spot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flush#Straight_flush
... it points to the fact, that the SURN (fire control radar) officers has the complexity of using 5 different frequency radar systems during one engagement.
banghead

Just multiply the complexity of the S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B) with five...


:O skyisfalling

Last edited by wasserfall; 11/20/12 04:51 PM.
#3686274 - 11/21/12 08:43 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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hpasp ... if you one day in the future .. decide to create sa-6 for sam sim .. witch sa-6 is your choice ?

Orginal sa-6 Or Upgraded sa-6 ?

what is sa-6A ?

A Series is Kvardat ?

#3686975 - 11/23/12 12:00 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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I have no idea what SA-6A is; i assume it's the NATO code for the Kvadrat. I'd want that one; the real Kub hasn't seen as much action. Then again, i might want to grow a few extra arms.
Anyhow; i have one more reason to hate Jobbik now, lol

#3695684 - 12/09/12 01:24 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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From Wester sources...


The Yom Kippur War began on Saturday, October 6, 1973, with an attack by Syrian MiG-17s on Israeli positions on the Golan Heights, followed by an assault by 700 Syrian tanks. Simultaneously, Egyptian forces launched an assault across the Suez Canal. Total surprise was achieved, and Israel was suddenly faced with the greatest threat to its existence since the War of Independence of 1948.

In the opening Egyptian attack on October 6, 1973, a pair of Phantoms were able to scramble and shoot down seven enemy aircraft. On the same day, Phantoms intercepted Mil Mi-8 helicopters attempting to land commandos in Sinai, and destroyed five of them.

On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites, but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6 Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery. The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in mid-afternoon.

The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system. In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band.

The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while in flight.

One technique that was occasionally effective against SA-6 missile sites was to use dive-bombing attacks against them. When launched, the SA-6 took off at a relatively shallow angle which steepened as it climbed and accelerated. In order to take advantage of this weakness, the attacking plane would approach the site from a high altitude and then dive down on the battery as steeply as possible.

The fix for the SA-6 problem proved to be in figuring out a way to detect the launch. Hurried modifications of Israeli radar warning receivers were made in the field, assisted by a lot of people in the United States burning the midnight oil in trying to come up with a solution. By the third day of the war, equipment was in the field which could produce a reliable squeal in a pilot's earphone whenever a SA-6 launch occurred in his direction. If the SA-6 launch could be detected, violent evasive maneuvers were often effective in throwing it off the target. These maneuvers turned the side of the aircraft toward the incoming missile and sharpened the missile's turning angle. This would sometimes cause the SA-6 to lose its lock. Another tactic which sometimes worked was for two planes to carry out a "split-S" maneuver, with the lead plane diving sharply into and across the missile's approach while the following plane dove across the first plane's vapor trail. After the third day of the war, these techniques began to work and losses to SA-6s began to drop sharply.

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/09/12 01:31 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3697161 - 12/11/12 09:25 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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so ... when hpasp want to create kub... he should add split-s an other maneuvers for rescue aircrafts in samsim thumbsup

TNQ to HpasP for last post in GAINFUL topic popcorn

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
From Wester sources...

. These maneuvers turned the side of the aircraft toward the incoming missile and sharpened the missile's turning angle. This would sometimes cause the SA-6 to lose its lock. Another tactic which sometimes worked was for two planes to carry out a "split-S" maneuver, with the lead plane diving sharply into and across the missile's approach while the following plane dove across the first plane's vapor trail. After the third day of the war, these techniques began to work and losses to SA-6s began to drop sharply.




Last edited by farokh; 12/11/12 09:43 PM.
#3697470 - 12/12/12 11:22 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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free download Ebook link
https://rapidshare.com/#!download|862p10|299082633|3574.zip|37792|0|0

#3698089 - 12/13/12 09:37 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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czech sa-6 gainful will be retire in 2016
http://articles.janes.com/articles/Janes...re-in-2016.html

#3698161 - 12/13/12 01:30 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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So after SAM era dating back to 50's we will be without any SAM :-(

#3713023 - 01/06/13 05:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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right now we are in 2013, and in this new year we are hope, to see sa-6 in samsim without any command guided again like nike series
.
.
.
.
.
.



Last edited by farokh; 01/06/13 05:09 PM.
#3716201 - 01/11/13 10:44 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Sorry, its Hungarian...
cool

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/11/13 10:45 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3733320 - 02/10/13 04:21 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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I just learnt that during ODS, the A-6E which was equipped with the internal ALQ-126A/B ECM system, was supplemented by the ALQ-167 jammer pod to cope with the SA-6.


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3733450 - 02/10/13 05:31 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
I just learnt that during ODS, the A-6E which was equipped with the internal ALQ-126A/B ECM system, was supplemented by the ALQ-167 jammer pod to cope with the SA-6.


There are several jamming techniques, that are effective against different types of radar systems.

Denial Jamming:
- Barrage Noise Jamming
- Spot Noise Jamming
- Swept Spot Noise Jamming
- Cover Pulse Noise Jamming
- Modulated Noise Jamming

Deceptive Jamming:
- False Target Jamming
- Range Deception Jamming (Range Gate Pull Off)
- Angle Deception Jamming (Inverse Amplitude Modulation, Inverse Gain Jamming, Swept Square Wave
- Velocity Deception Jamming (Velocity Gate Pull Off, Doppler Noise, Narrow-band Doppler Noise, Doppler False Targets)
- Mono-pulse Deception Jamming (Cross Polarization Jamming, Cross Eye Jamming)


The trick of the KUB is that it use several type of radar systems, to achieve target lock on.
(Doppler Pulse, Monopulse, Semi Active Giudance)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3733481 - 02/10/13 07:10 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hpasp, can you point me to some reading material about how different types of jamming works? Ive read most easy to find stuff but nothing i found went into the details. What the jammers do when they receive radar signal, what they send back and how the radar interprets it...

#3733708 - 02/11/13 11:17 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Vympel]  
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Originally Posted By: Vympel
Hpasp, can you point me to some reading material about how different types of jamming works? Ive read most easy to find stuff but nothing i found went into the details. What the jammers do when they receive radar signal, what they send back and how the radar interprets it...


"Essentials of Electronic Warfare Book" is quite good,


also

"The History of U.S. Electronic Warfare Vol III"

is nice.

You can also open a new topic if you want, where we could discuss the different methods.

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/11/13 11:19 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3733748 - 02/11/13 02:20 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Thanks, I will see if I can find those books. The first one has a small picture, could you tell me who the author is?

It would be nice to have a topic just for EW, I will see if I can think of something nice to write as intro to the subject.

#3734801 - 02/13/13 02:15 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
I just learnt that during ODS, the A-6E which was equipped with the internal ALQ-126A/B ECM system, was supplemented by the ALQ-167 jammer pod to cope with the SA-6.


There are several jamming techniques, that are effective against different types of radar systems.

Denial Jamming:
- Barrage Noise Jamming
- Spot Noise Jamming
- Swept Spot Noise Jamming
- Cover Pulse Noise Jamming
- Modulated Noise Jamming

Deceptive Jamming:
- False Target Jamming
- Range Deception Jamming (Range Gate Pull Off)
- Angle Deception Jamming (Inverse Amplitude Modulation, Inverse Gain Jamming, Swept Square Wave
- Velocity Deception Jamming (Velocity Gate Pull Off, Doppler Noise, Narrow-band Doppler Noise, Doppler False Targets)
- Mono-pulse Deception Jamming (Cross Polarization Jamming, Cross Eye Jamming)


The trick of the KUB is that it use several type of radar systems, to achieve target lock on.
(Doppler Pulse, Monopulse, Semi Active Giudance)

Thanks for the info Hpasp cheers

I agree with you about having a separate EW thread. It's a very interesting topic and would be great to discuss real world scenarios as well as theory. I know I have many questions, so perhaps I'll start a new topic. smile


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3740983 - 02/24/13 05:18 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
sexy sexy sexy

#3773816 - 04/26/13 08:51 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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apelles Offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6pziPYZtWI&feature=player_embedded#!


What about these video? Really that easy evade a Kub? Even in a game?

#3773978 - 04/27/13 03:44 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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That's Flaming Cliffs 2. I looked it up on Wikipedia, and it says it's based on DCS.

I know for a fact that the SAMs in DCS are a cartoon. They're not even remotely accurately simulated, and jamming isn't accurately simulated either.

That said, the SA-6 is pretty old. I have no doubt a modern jammer is very good at confusing the simple brain inside an SA-6.

#3774012 - 04/27/13 06:38 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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apelles Offline
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I think this is falcon 4. But what surprise me, a few semi hard turn and the missile brake lock?

Jamming is another thing, that's believable.

#3774015 - 04/27/13 07:01 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Mdore Offline
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Ah, the creator of the video said Flaming Cliffs 2 in the comments below. That's why I didn't think it was Falcon 4.

I found this http://download.high-g.net/files/Falcon_4_Manuals/f4_threat_quickguide.pdf

A lot of information in that manual for Falcon 4 is wrong, so I don't think it's very accurate simulation of the SAMs.

#3774017 - 04/27/13 07:26 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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apelles Offline
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Yes. Lots of confidence created in the flight sim community (and of course in me) by poorly represented SAMs and AAAs.


The AA-11/AA-12 represented like a death ray, while the sa-2/3/4/5 like a fireworks.

#3774019 - 04/27/13 07:38 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Sa-3 maneuverability : low?
Sa-4 terminal guide SARH ????
Sa-5 terminal guide ARH ??? the ARH guide is extremely vulnerable to jam, and chaff?

#3774061 - 04/27/13 12:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: apelles]  
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Originally Posted By: apelles
Sa-3 maneuverability : low?
Sa-4 terminal guide SARH ????
Sa-5 terminal guide ARH ??? the ARH guide is extremely vulnerable to jam, and chaff?


rolleyes


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3774091 - 04/27/13 02:10 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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guys ! please get deep thinking !

samsim is a another thing than one virtual flight game !!!
it created by real parameters and real algorithm ! "as i know"
graphical sams shape on DCS is good and very hot ! but when u see DCS sams mechanism !!! you will understand that its was just a game

PS: i have DCS A-10 , and i try tens time with all of sams systems... from sa-3 till c-300 ! and i understand what is real simulated on it !
"just launch time"
biggrin


Last edited by farokh; 04/27/13 02:24 PM.
#3823081 - 08/16/13 08:50 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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where is the great man?
who hide between code lines
Immersed between sea of love and launch
i wasting my dream to imagine
maybe one night.....
he come to my dream like zeus
and i hear something under his lips
like croon by weak matrix sound
some days we will meet the dead angel
some days you will see each other
some days ...
you will see
the KAVARDAT
for this moment...
i wasting my dream ....
like a butterfly that revolve
around the candle
till some days
he lost his wings
and keep silence
near the dreams










Last edited by farokh; 08/16/13 10:34 AM.
#3823124 - 08/16/13 01:50 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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Preparation for live firing event...



...in Ustka.





Meteor targets.



Hungarian KUB Regiment commander.



from here:
http://legiero.blog.hu/2013/07/16/kozeleg_az_igazsag_pillanata_magyar_lerak_magyar_celanyagra

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/16/13 01:52 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3823169 - 08/16/13 03:38 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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piston79 Offline
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Click to reveal..
Originally Posted By: farokh
where is the great man?
who hide between code lines
Immersed between sea of love and launch
i wasting my dream to imagine
maybe one night.....
he come to my dream like zeus
and i hear something under his lips
like croon by weak matrix sound
some days we will meet the dead angel
some days you will see each other
some days ...
you will see
the KAVARDAT
for this moment...
i wasting my dream ....
like a butterfly that revolve
around the candle
till some days
he lost his wings
and keep silence
near the dreams





You, re one of not many, that wrote poems for ADS! Must be proud!

#3826093 - 08/23/13 07:56 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3826112 - 08/23/13 09:38 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


it seems hungarian defense men really need KUB in service and they dont want retire it ....... sadly frown
hpasp... where could you find another KUB? just in hungary ?

#3827514 - 08/26/13 04:41 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3850195 - 10/15/13 11:37 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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HAAA haaa HAAAAAAAA

bulgarian KUB make great sence !

piton79 ...! what dont you make any news in this froum about it ?
i guess this kind of happened is very routine and normal in bulgaria air defense right ? rofl


Last edited by farokh; 10/15/13 11:40 AM.
#3850214 - 10/15/13 01:03 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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hpasp... maybe in your country you can touch the sa-6 missiles
and maybe you know about them better than internet source
... i never see any KUB in my life... till now

so here is the questions on my mind ...
upper pic i guess its yours right ?

so what different is here between upper missile with dark color
and downer missile with white color ?

sam crews could arm this 2 types of missiles in one launcher ?
and witch one is better ?



#3850269 - 10/15/13 03:15 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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This book describes the difference of these two types of missiles (3M9M1, 3M9M3)...
SA-6_Gainful_in_Detail_-_Soviet_Anti-aircraft_Mobile_Rocket_System

Last edited by Hpasp; 10/15/13 03:17 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3850381 - 10/15/13 06:52 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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ePap Offline
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Athens
Originally Posted By: farokh
HAAA haaa HAAAAAAAA

bulgarian KUB make great sence !

piton79 ...! what dont you make any news in this froum about it ?
i guess this kind of happened is very routine and normal in bulgaria air defense right ? rofl



New jamming technic,if you are interest ...
They just fired smoke grenates as a counter measure for possible incoming anti radiation missile !

#3850384 - 10/15/13 06:58 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: ePap]  
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ePap Offline
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Athens
Originally Posted By: ePap
Originally Posted By: farokh
HAAA haaa HAAAAAAAA

bulgarian KUB make great sence !

piton79 ...! what dont you make any news in this froum about it ?
i guess this kind of happened is very routine and normal in bulgaria air defense right ? rofl



New jamming technic,if you are interest ...
They just fired smoke grenates as a counter measure for possible incoming anti radiation missile !

smile2

Last edited by ePap; 10/15/13 07:00 PM.
#3850395 - 10/15/13 07:10 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: farokh
HAAA haaa HAAAAAAAA
bulgarian KUB make great sence !
piton79 ...! what dont you make any news in this froum about it ?
i guess this kind of happened is very routine and normal in bulgaria air defense right ? rofl


No news here... it was in 2009, nobody get hurt.... Old ammo I guess...

Dedicated to Faroukh:



(It is not allowed to jerk off on it, Faroukh... biggrin )

#3854066 - 10/25/13 10:55 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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rolleyes

#3896320 - 01/16/14 06:30 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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apelles Offline
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"The SA-6 is a fantastically fun missile battery to duel with because it isn't very hard to defeat. Plus, the missiles are large, leave a big smoke cloud upon launch, and leave a smoke trail in flight - so they are easy to spot and evade. Putting the radar on the beam is very effective at breaking the lock and they are quite easy to stair-step your way toward as you alternately close the distance then beam as each launch occurs..."

... in DCS A-10C.

What's your opinion Hpasp?

#3896434 - 01/16/14 09:21 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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According official Israeli losses in 1973 (110 planes), 105 where because of ground fire (SAM, PZRK, guns)... From those at least 50 (!) where from SA-6 export version (Kvadrat)...

Check here: SA-6

Last edited by piston79; 01/16/14 09:36 PM.
#3896701 - 01/17/14 08:22 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Tough days for the Israeli Air Force...

A-4 Skyhawk
-1 06-Oct-73 A-4H Ehud Sadan Egyptian AAA, pilot killed
-1 06-Oct-73 Matti Carp Egyptian AAA, pilot recovered
-1 06-Oct-73 A-4H Ishay Catziri Egyptian SA-7, pilot PoW
-1 06-Oct-73 Yanki Yardeni Syrian SAM, pilot recovered
-1 06-Oct-73 Eytan Hanan Syrian SAM, pilot killed
-1 06-Oct-73 Gideon Sharon Syrian SAM, pilot recovered
-1 07-Oct-73 A-4H Libby Dollar Egyptian SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Ze'ev Nesher Syrian AAA/SAM, pilot PoW
-1 07-Oct-73 Zvi Horovitz Syrian SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 A-4E 211 Amnon Shamir Syrian AAA, pilot recovered
-1 07-Oct-73 Israel Rozenblum Syrian AAA/SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Rafael Lev Syrian SAM, pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Moshe Astraicher Egyptian AAA/SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Shimon Ash Syrian SAM, pilot missing
-1 07-Oct-73 Levi Bar-Ziv Egyptian SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Shai Avital Egyptian SAM, Pilot killed
-1 07-Oct-73 Yoram Lapidot Egyptian AA/SAM, pilot killed
-1 08-Oct-73 Zvi Rosen Egyptian SAM, pilot PoW
-1 08-Oct-73 Zvi Bashan Egyptian SAM, pilot killed
-1 08-Oct-73 A-4H Gideon Ben Eliezer Egyptian AAA, pilot killed
-1 08-Oct-73 ? Syrian SAM, pilot recovered
-1 09-Oct-73 Gideon Sharon Syrian SAM, pilot recovered
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4E 218 Lev "Zorik" Arlozor Pilot incapacitated and killed
-1 09-Oct-73 Mario Shaked Egyptian SAM, pilot killed
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4E 209 Ehud Shelach Syrian SA3, pilot killed
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4E 204 Yaniv Litany Egyptian AAA, pilot killed
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4E 821 Assaf Matos Egyptian AAA, pilot PoW
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4H Amon Gardi Egyptian AAA, pilot PoW
-1 09-Oct-73 A-4H Pedro Reinberg Egyptian AAA, pilot PoW
-1 10-Oct-73 A-4E 241 Noach Hertz Syrian SAM, pilot PoW
-1 10-Oct-73 Yehuda Ben-Ari Syrian SAM, pilot killed
-1 11-Oct-73 Itzhak Ofer Syrian SAM, pilot killed
-1 11-Oct-73 Michael Shneider Syrian SAM, pilot PoW
-1 11-Oct-73 A-4H Amiram Guy Syrian SAM, pilot PoW
-1 12-Oct-73 A-4H Israel Baster-Bar Syrian SAM or AAA, pilot killed
-1 13-Oct-73 Gavriel Garzon Syrian SAM or AAA, pilot PoW
-1 13-Oct-73 TA-4 Ran Ofri\Yehuda Shefer Egyptian SAM, Ofri killed at ejection, Shefer recovered
-1 15-Oct-73 ? Syrian AAA, pilot recovered
-1 15-Oct-73 Gavriel Sa'ar Syrian AAA, pilot killed
-1 16-Oct-73 Menachem Eyal Egyptian AAA, pilot killed
-1 16-Oct-73 Maoz Poraz Egyptian AAA, pilot killed
-1 18-Oct-73 A-4H Gershon Reshef Egyptian SAM, pilot killed
-1 18-Oct-73 A-4H Gideon Sharon Egyptian SAM, pilot PoW
-1 18-Oct-73 A-4H Haim Gofen Egyptian SAM, pilot recovered
-1 18-Oct-73 A-4H 03 Jacob Kubik Egyptian SAM, crew recovered
-1 21-Oct-73 Eitan Lahav Syrian AAA, pilot killed

F-4E Phantom-II
-1 06-Oct-73 F-4E Issaschar Naveh/David Silberman Egyptian SAM, crew killed in crash landing in Hatzerim
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E Ehud Hankin/Shaul Levi Syrian SAM, crew killed
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 615 Gad Smoch/Avikam Lif Syrian SAM, Samok managed to land, Lif PoW
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 177 Ami Elkelei/Shuki (Yehoshua) Wolfson Syrian SAM, crew PoW (69-7242?)
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 661 Chaim Ram/Itzik Yahav Syrian SAM, crew PoW (October 8?)
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 92 Avi Barber/ Zvi Afik Syrian SAM, crew PoW
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 645 Meir Shani/Avraham Asa'el Syrian SAM, crew PoW (October 8?)
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 621 Uri Shackak/Gil'ad Gerber Syrian SAM, crew PoW (October 8?)
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 3 Eitan Levi/David Syrian SAM, crew recovered
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E 682 Kobi Hayun/Uzi Syrian SAM, crew ejected over Safed and recovered (October 8?)
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E Dvir/Refaeli Crew rescued
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E One crewmember rescued
-1 07-Oct-73 F-4E Crew rescued
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E 245 Zebulun Amitzi/Ze'ev Yogev Egyptian SAM crew killed (71-1781)
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E 247 Michael Dvir/Shabtai Ben-Shu'a Egyptian AAA, crew recovered
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E Uri Shani/Dror Jaffe Egyptian SAM, crew killed
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E 215 or 179 Yoram Peled/Boaz Lerner Crew recovered
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E Yahalom/Mor Crew recovered
-1 08-Oct-73 F-4E Yoram Shachar/Gur Israeli Syrian SAM, crew PoW
-1 09-Oct-73 F-4E Dov Shafir/Yaaov Yaacobi Syrian SAM, Shafir killed, Yaacobi PoW
-1 09-Oct-73 F-4E Aharon Sagi/Hazan Crew recovered
-1 09-Oct-73 F-4E 181 Harel Gilutz/Yosef Ye'ari Syrian SAM crew rescued
-1 11-Oct-73 F-4E 640 Kobi Hayun/ Uri Arad Egyptian MiG-21, crew PoW (68-0456?)
-1 11-Oct-73 F-4E 673 Yonatan Ofir/Eran Cohen Egyptian MiG-21, Ofir killed on capture, Cohen killed (68-0525)
-1 11-Oct-73 F-4E Arad/Israel Primor AAA or SAM, crew PoW in Lebanon
-1 11-Oct-73 F-4E Asher Snir/? AAA or SAM, crew recovered
-1 12-Oct-73 F-4E 90 Moshe Koren/Nimrod Lebanese AAA, crew ejected over base and recovered
-1 12-Oct-73 F-4E 151 Ran Goren/Micha Oren Egyptian MiG-21, crew recovered (71-0225)
-1 13-Oct-73 F-4E 618 Ady Bnaya/David Ya'ir Syrian AAA, crew recovered
-1 13-Oct-73 F-4E 697 Iftach Zemer/Itzhak Amitai Technical malfunction, crew recovered
-1 14-Oct-73 F-4E David Zeit/Eli Tovel Egypt MiG (Qadri al-Hamid) or Hawk SAM, crew recovered
-1 15-Oct-73 F-4E 176 Uri Bakal/Daniel Rosenblat Israeli Nesher (Yair Sela), crew recovered
-1 15-Oct-73 F-4E Binyamin Livne/Rahamim Sofer Egyptian AAA or MiG, Livne PoW, Sofer dies as PoW
-1 17-Oct-73 F-4E 620 Gad Smoch/Baruch Golan Egyptian SAM, crew killed (68-0416?)
-1 18-Oct-73 F-4E 616 Guri Palter/Itzhak Bar'am Egyptian SAM, crew PoW (69-0294?)
-1 18-Oct-73 F-4E 635 Doron Shalev/Yosef Lev-Ari Egyptian SAM, crew PoW (68-0437)
-1 20-Oct-73 F-4E 231 David Zeit/Yoram Rubinstein Egyptian SAM, crew PoW (71-1789)
-1 20-Oct-73 F-4E 142 Aharon Sagi/Moshe Barton Egyptian SAM, crew recovered


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3896983 - 01/17/14 05:37 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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apelles Offline
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Cool, and what about Serbia? I remember only the Scott O'Grady shoot down, and a Mirage 2000, but later revealed it's an Igla kill.

#3897030 - 01/17/14 06:55 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: apelles]  
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Scott OGrady was a KUB kill (149.srp).


During Allied Force, the KUB regiments (60.srp, 230.srp, 240.srp, 310.srp, 311.srp) suffered heavily (25% destroyed - 50% hit), without any result due to the extensive use of the ALE-50.

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/18/14 05:31 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3898741 - 01/20/14 08:37 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Does SA-6 has anything to overcome ALE-50 like SA-3 or this system can't do anything against it?

#3898772 - 01/20/14 09:39 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: PN79]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: PN79
Does SA-6 has anything to overcome ALE-50 like SA-3 or this system can't do anything against it?


And what SA-3 have against ALE-50?...

#3898967 - 01/21/14 08:26 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: PN79
Does SA-6 has anything to overcome ALE-50 like SA-3 or this system can't do anything against it?


And what SA-3 have against ALE-50?...


Manual target tracking.
smile

A well trained human operator knows that the ALE-50 is always behind the target.

Basicly ALE-50 was designed against the SA-6/10.

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/21/14 08:28 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3899080 - 01/21/14 02:50 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Or instead of using a SA-6 you could use a SA-2 with nuclear-tipped missiles biggrin

LoL, just kidding. biggrin

#3899822 - 01/22/14 06:19 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Thanks Hpasp for answer. And do you know if SA-10 with semi-active guided missiles (5V55R etc.) has any solution for it? I suppose that older command guided 5V55K could overcome it like SA-2 and SA-3.

#3899861 - 01/22/14 07:17 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: PN79]  
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Originally Posted By: PN79
Thanks Hpasp for answer. And do you know if SA-10 with semi-active guided missiles (5V55R etc.) has any solution for it? I suppose that older command guided 5V55K could overcome it like SA-2 and SA-3.


More missiles than ALE-50 biggrin


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3900445 - 01/23/14 06:41 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: PN79]  
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Originally Posted By: PN79
Thanks Hpasp for answer. And do you know if SA-10 with semi-active guided missiles (5V55R etc.) has any solution for it? I suppose that older command guided 5V55K could overcome it like SA-2 and SA-3.


The S-300PS/PMU (SA-10B) has manual target tracking capability...
(3 similar indicator at the bottom right)



... but it can track only 1 target at one time.

Generally its a better idea to similarly track both incoming Weasel and launch 2x2 missiles parallelly against them.
With the 5V55R missile 75km range and Mach6 speed, can easily outpace any HARM.
(still have 4 empty channel for incoming HARM or other targets)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3900503 - 01/23/14 08:22 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Really interesting. Thanks.

#3900515 - 01/23/14 08:47 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hpasp, the SA-10B would require an own topic. It's a really interesting system.

#3900704 - 01/24/14 07:22 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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I whish we have it simulated one day thumbsup

#3900894 - 01/24/14 02:52 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: apelles]  
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Originally Posted By: apelles
Hpasp, the SA-10B would require an own topic. It's a really interesting system.


Done


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3904908 - 01/31/14 03:20 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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The 310.srp PVO was formed during 1982 in Kraguljevac, Yugoslavia.
Just before the OAF 1999 break out, the 4 KUB battery were redistributed.

1st battery was sent to defend the Sjenica AFB, some 100km SW of Kraguljevac.
4 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

3rd battery was sent to defend the Ponikve AFB, some 100km W of Kraguljevac.
2 MiG-29 and 2 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

At Kraguljevac, only the 2nd, and the 4th KUB battery were left.

At the 9th day of the war, the regiment was ordered leave Kraguljevac and take new position at 60~70km west of Belgrade.

14th of April, the 310/4.srp PVO KUB was discovered by NATO air forces, and were attacked by two AGM-130 missiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-130

The first AGM missile hit the Diesel Electric Transformer cabin.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416b.mpg
The operator is standing beside the cabin (probable smoking), he survived the explosion.


The second AGM hit the SURN.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416c.mpg


Zoran Viriyevich reserve soldier died instantly...
... he was buried on the 16th of April at Kragujevac. He was 31 years old...



Last edited by Hpasp; 01/31/14 03:55 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3924411 - 03/13/14 10:24 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hello to all...

Does anyone knows approximate (or exact :)) average thrust of 3M9 missile?

#3924798 - 03/14/14 06:15 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Quote:
Author Piotr Dubowik. Gouache on paper 41x32. "Su-22M4 catapulted the accidental shooting down the training ground Ustka - Poland"


http://www.sztukaitechnika.pl/blog/35,katapultowanie-z-su-22m4.html

The story:

GOOGLE translation

#3924922 - 03/14/14 09:02 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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WOW great article!!!

After the Cold War, when the British received the ex-East German KUBs for system exploitation, they had a big problem during test firings...
... even if they disarmed the KUB missile warhead, the damn missile usually scored a direct hit on the RC target plane.
hahaha

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/14/14 09:22 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3926040 - 03/17/14 05:28 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


After the Cold War, when the British received the ex-East German KUBs for system exploitation, they had a big problem during test firings...
... even if they disarmed the KUB missile warhead, the damn missile usually scored a direct hit on the RC target plane.
hahaha


Where we could read more about those testings?

#4104406 - 04/10/15 07:03 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Translated from the:
http://legiero.blog.hu/2015/04/01/a_tabornok_nyughelye

During a war there could be strange circumstances, when the fate of a MiG-29 pilot is arrives in a face of a HARM missile.


Fate has strange ways for warriors.

General Velickovic during his fighter pilot career, flown F-84 Thunderjet, F-86 Sabre, MiG-21 Fishbed, and MiG-29 Fulcrum serving the Yugoslav Air Force.
According to the Western News of those days of 1999...

NATO struck hard at Serb forces deployed in Kosovo, destroying a significant amount of artillery during Day 70 of Operation Allied Force.


NATO aircraft struck at least 32 pieces of artillery, nine armoured personnel carriers, eight mortar positions, six armoured vehicles, four other military vehicles, a SA-6 SAM site and assorted revetted positions. The heaviest strikes against Serb forces in Kosovo took place in the vicinity of Planeja and Mount Pastrik, where severe fighting continues between VJ/MUP forces and the UCK.

Other targets hit included:
Electric power transmission tower near Belgrade
Military barracks at Obrenovac
Air defense command center at Novi Sad
AM radio broadcast stations at: Ruma, and Srbobran
TV/FM relay site at Banjska
Radio relay site at Novi Pazar
Highway bridge at Pirot
Railway bridge at Pirot
Petroleum refueling station at Marash
Petroleum storage site at Sombor
Ammunition storage site at Kursumlija

NATO aircraft flew a total of 575 sorties, including 197 strike sorties and 70 suppression of enemy air defense (SEAD) missions. The weather in the operating region was mixed yesterday, leading to the cancellation of some sorties. All NATO aircraft returned safely. Allied Force operations are underway on Day 71. Further details will be available at the NATO morning update at 1030.


During that night actually two Serbian SA-6 battery was taken out of action by NATO, the bloodiest night of the 1999 war from the Serbian Air Defense point of view.

They lost 5 warriors that night...


As an inspector officer from the Serbian high command, General Velickovic stayed at the SURN (Straight Flush) fire control radar during the unfolding night battle, and died with its crew.

His mother died just 4 years after, at 78...


... still calling his son at the back of her tomb.

(my son...)

warriors, rest in peace

Last edited by Hpasp; 04/11/15 02:56 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4104670 - 04/11/15 10:45 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
The fifth photo:

Click to reveal..


Source: Forum Pouke.org


Updated the post, thanks!


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4104884 - 04/11/15 07:17 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Updated the post, thanks!


A sad story, indeed.... sigh

#4141849 - 07/01/15 07:33 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Did you know that the Czech Republic is modifying its SA-6 Gainful/KUB systems to use the Aspide 2000 missile?

A couple of news articles that mention the modification.

Czech SAM Cube with equipment Aspide 2000 missile.

CZECH REPUBLIC UPGRADES SA-6 WITH ASPIDE 2000 MISSILES

Plus the Retia company's official page about the modernization program.

Modernization of Surface-to-Air Missile system SA-6 "Gainful" (2K12 KUB/KVADRAT)

A pdf file about the integration program.

ASPIDE 2000: Integration onto SA-6 KUB

#4141873 - 07/01/15 08:09 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: KJakker]  
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Spada-2000 use the obsolete AIM-7 Sparrow missile with limited ceiling (well below the existing capabilities of the KUB missile)...
... I would rather prefer the NASAMS-II system, at least it use the more deadlier AIM-120 AMRAAM missile.

thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 07/01/15 08:28 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4142062 - 07/02/15 11:20 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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According my last information, this is a former effort (driven by ending life of 3M9 missiles). I never heard about any progress in this and our Kub should end in 2016 :-(

#4158749 - 08/18/15 10:55 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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dadys love biggrin
accually i check this froum only for one news of it

#4161496 - 08/26/15 08:07 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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SA-6 shot down a target based on V-755 missile...


info

#4161644 - 08/27/15 07:08 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4161668 - 08/27/15 10:55 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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SA-3 boost stage fins fold out?! I never knew.

They're awesome photos.

#4161670 - 08/27/15 11:12 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Some photos are from 2013 (with the missiles of 250 ZRB of Serbia)....


Anyway, the comments where, that M-755 (V-755) is pretty tough target for SA-6... Don't understand why....
The M-755 is just a SA-2E missile, without fuel (only booster motor is used)....

Last edited by piston79; 08/27/15 11:17 AM.
#4161886 - 08/27/15 07:16 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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piston79: Maybe small RCS of the target?

#4161887 - 08/27/15 07:19 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
piston79: Maybe small RCS of the target?


Or fast moving target....

#4162091 - 08/28/15 08:24 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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The S-300 is a Bulgarian one with Slovak rockets and officers. It is their first live firing and they successfully shot down target RUM-1.



Unfortunately the Slovak S-300PMU is a former Czech one so we can only envy the Slovaks that they have it....



The Kub which shot down the MAB-755 should be Slovak also.

#4162101 - 08/28/15 09:46 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd


The Kub which shot down the MAB-755 should be Slovak also.


Why thing so?

#4162138 - 08/28/15 12:33 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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I read it in a Czechoslovak forum.

Here: http://forum.fortifikace.net/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=624&start=15

Message 27.08.2015 05:55.

But when I read it again, it is not explictily stated it is Slovak, he writes it just after the Slovak S-300 so I supposed the Kub was also Slovak.

#4162997 - 08/30/15 11:09 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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hpasp... few weeks ago... iran news channel said..
hungary got dessicion to deploy modern system in this country..
so.. how u analize it? is that true ?
can we hoppless to see sa6 in samsim future ?

#4163003 - 08/30/15 11:28 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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... few weeks ago... iran news channel said..
hungary got dessicion to deploy modern system in this country..


I would not trust that news agency in your place.
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/30/15 11:28 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4232594 - 02/23/16 02:18 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hi.
I just don't understand this secrecy thing. If in another country, the Kub was demobilized - that means it is not a secret anymore. By this rule, the Osa or the Volhov should also be classified because both are in service in some countries... Romania for example which is also a NATO member.
What if someone else .. for example in Russia makes a SA-6 simulator? It has nothing to do with the hungarian government or armed forces, am I right?

#4232675 - 02/23/16 07:18 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Demobilizing a system, and removing its classification is two separate thing, and could be several years apart, depending on the original supplier agreement between the two state.

I do not take lightly international bilateral state agreements.

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/24/16 04:05 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4283871 - 08/01/16 08:24 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Last edited by piston79; 08/02/16 06:31 PM.
#4284225 - 08/03/16 07:03 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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WhoCares Online tunes
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Google-fu:
Source of the picture
Google Translate....
Quote:
Beautiful pictures of hydraulics, fragmentation warhead, the inside of the combustion chamber, the solid gas generators (Mg), nozzles and inserts solid fuel Buster.

Don't want to cross-link the other pictures from that forum, so I leave it at that wink

#4284813 - 08/04/16 07:45 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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#4284815 - 08/04/16 07:48 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: WhoCares]  
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Originally Posted By: WhoCares

Don't want to cross-link the other pictures from that forum, so I leave it at that wink


Cross-linking didn't work, that's where question mark from Hpasp goes...

#4303600 - 10/16/16 08:56 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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KUB fieldings in East-Europe...

East Germany 1977-4, 1978-5, 1979-4, 1980-4, 1981-4, 1984-1
Czechoslovakia 1975-6, 1977-4, 1978-3, 1979-5, 1980-5, 1982-2, 1983-5, 1985-4
Poland 1974-8, 1977-9, 1980-10, 1986-5
Hungary 1975-5, 1977-3, 1979-3
Yugoslavia 1975-8, 1976-4, 1978-4, 1982-8
Romania 1978-5, 1982-5, 1984-5
Bulgaria 1976-4, 1982-4

Alltogether 146!!! systems.

Last edited by Hpasp; 10/16/16 09:08 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4305970 - 10/24/16 03:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4306733 - 10/27/16 09:56 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Alien_MasterMynd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

I have never seen this date as confirmed (some years ago that date was 2016 yep) . It is known that life time of missiles is going to end, so they could be replaced with Aspide missiles (and most probably modified CW illuminator). There is no political will to order a new capable system, it is sufficient to look at what remained from our army itself, namely air force and PVO.

By the way, the whole article is a ton of #%&*$#, do not bother with reading :-)

#4336850 - 02/13/17 12:16 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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piston79 Offline
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1982 AGM-78 Stadart ARM

#4337229 - 02/14/17 11:24 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#4341388 - 03/01/17 10:12 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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piston79 Offline
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A tank-transporter hauls a radar Straight Flush seized from the Libyans at Wadi Doum. Pierre-Alain Antoine collection

[Linked Image]

#4342751 - 03/08/17 11:46 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted by Hpasp

.........The second AGM hit the SURN.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416c.mpg
[Linked Image]

Zoran Viriyevich reserve soldier died instantly...
... he was buried on the 16th of April at Kragujevac. He was 31 years old...




IT is strange that he didn't escape, after the diesel van was destroyed....

#4453049 - 12/12/18 08:07 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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[Linked Image]

Attached Files са-6.jpg
#4454372 - 12/22/18 04:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted by piston79
[Linked Image]

Nice thumbsup

#4471317 - 04/20/19 01:58 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted by Hpasp
The 310.srp PVO was formed during 1982 in Kraguljevac, Yugoslavia.
Just before the OAF 1999 break out, the 4 KUB battery were redistributed.

1st battery was sent to defend the Sjenica AFB, some 100km SW of Kraguljevac.
4 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

3rd battery was sent to defend the Ponikve AFB, some 100km W of Kraguljevac.
2 MiG-29 and 2 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

At Kraguljevac, only the 2nd, and the 4th KUB battery were left.

At the 9th day of the war, the regiment was ordered leave Kraguljevac and take new position at 60~70km west of Belgrade.

14th of April, the 310/4.srp PVO KUB was discovered by NATO air forces, and were attacked by two AGM-130 missiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-130

The first AGM missile hit the Diesel Electric Transformer cabin.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416b.mpg
The operator is standing beside the cabin (probable smoking), he survived the explosion.
[Linked Image]

The second AGM hit the SURN.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416c.mpg
[Linked Image]

Zoran Viriyevich reserve soldier died instantly...
... he was buried on the 16th of April at Kragujevac. He was 31 years old...

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

Attached Files sa6 zoran.jpg
#4471333 - 04/20/19 07:18 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted by piston79
Originally Posted by Hpasp
The 310.srp PVO was formed during 1982 in Kraguljevac, Yugoslavia.
Just before the OAF 1999 break out, the 4 KUB battery were redistributed.

1st battery was sent to defend the Sjenica AFB, some 100km SW of Kraguljevac.
4 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

3rd battery was sent to defend the Ponikve AFB, some 100km W of Kraguljevac.
2 MiG-29 and 2 MiG-21 fighter were hidden at this reserve base.

At Kraguljevac, only the 2nd, and the 4th KUB battery were left.

At the 9th day of the war, the regiment was ordered leave Kraguljevac and take new position at 60~70km west of Belgrade.

14th of April, the 310/4.srp PVO KUB was discovered by NATO air forces, and were attacked by two AGM-130 missiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-130

The first AGM missile hit the Diesel Electric Transformer cabin.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416b.mpg
The operator is standing beside the cabin (probable smoking), he survived the explosion.
[Linked Image]

The second AGM hit the SURN.
http://www.nato.int/video/990416c.mpg
[Linked Image]

Zoran Viriyevich reserve soldier died instantly...
... he was buried on the 16th of April at Kragujevac. He was 31 years old...

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]

:-(

#4500325 - 12/14/19 04:39 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Kub operator Offline
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Hello to everyone!
I was invited to this forum by @piston79, with whom I have been writing on MyCityMilitary forum.
I was a Kub operator in the former Yugoslav Army (VJ), and served as a Commander of SPL 2P25M1 (Self propelled launcher) in the Missile Battery and later as a Commander of radar station P-15M Flat Face in the Fire Command Battery of the Kub regiment. Also been active in the 1999. war, mostly as a Commander of P-15M and also as a Commander of SPL (to substitute for one of my colleagues)....
I am open for discussion on the Kub matter, and on the war experiences to the limit of my knowledge, and with respect to some informations that cannot be told at this time....

Last edited by Kub operator; 12/14/19 04:40 PM.
#4500334 - 12/14/19 05:45 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Originally Posted by Kub operator
Hello to everyone!
I was invited to this forum by @piston79, with whom I have been writing on MyCityMilitary forum.
I was a Kub operator in the former Yugoslav Army (VJ), and served as a Commander of SPL 2P25M1 (Self propelled launcher) in the Missile Battery and later as a Commander of radar station P-15M Flat Face in the Fire Command Battery of the Kub regiment. Also been active in the 1999. war, mostly as a Commander of P-15M and also as a Commander of SPL (to substitute for one of my colleagues)....
I am open for discussion on the Kub matter, and on the war experiences to the limit of my knowledge, and with respect to some informations that cannot be told at this time....



Welcome!

Is it OK to put the KUB panels explanation?

#4500337 - 12/14/19 06:14 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Kub operator Offline
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@piston79

How do I post images from my computer? This is the best way to do it, together with the text....

#4500340 - 12/14/19 06:20 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Originally Posted by Kub operator
@piston79

How do I post images from my computer? This is the best way to do it, together with the text....


True the Attach manager, I believe... In full editor mode

#4500342 - 12/14/19 06:37 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Ok, let me try now. Please understand that I haven`t been active for about 19 years and some memories faded.
Also, maybe some explanations could have been more precise in english language, but I tried my best.

RStON (SURN) 1S91M2 - The heart of the 2K12 Kub missile system

*Radar Station Commander Workplace
From left to right we can see velocity and height indicators of the chosen target.
Below those two indicators, we can see green lamps which marks SPL-s (Self Propelled Launchers) and they are marked above with roman numbers (I – IV).
Below these green lamps, there are switches “TARGET”, which are switched on by Commander when he allocates the target to one, or more, SPL-s.
Below the “TARGET” allocation switches, there are green lamps (Ready Lights) “READINESS”, that are turned on when SPL send the information to SURN that one, or more missiles are ready to be launched. When the missiles are ready to be launched, apart from green lamp “READINESS” for SPL no. II (on our picture), one/two/three red missile lamps will be turned on.
On the bottom of the Commander Workplace, there are red round launch buttons (Pusk) “LAUNCH”. On our picture, when the green lamp “READINESS” for SPL no. II is turned on, followed by turning on of one/two/three read missile lamps, Commander will press the “LAUNCH” button below SPL no. II, and launch the first missile. Before that, the guidance radar operator will establish automatic target tracking and illumination.
Which missile will be launched first is determined within SPL through AKR – Analogue Command Calculator and in the principle the missiles are launched from right to left, when observed standing in front of the SPL and the missiles

*Target Acquisition Radar Operator Workplace (TAR Operator)
We can see round panoramic IKO indicator with marked range zones of 20, 40 and 60 km. The azimuth marks are located on azimuth counter aroun IKO indicator.
The thicker yellow line is a marker and it is used by the TAR Operator, following the order from station Commander, to acquire the target by using the range and azimuth wheels, and thus switching the target onto the smaller and more precise ITC indicator.
The thinner yellow line is the mark of the circular marker which rotates around the IKO indicator and outlines the target marks, ground reflections and so on…..
On the smaller ITC indicator, target mark appears and more precise target azimuth and range parameters are determined, and target mark also appears in the smallest IPP indicator on the top, in the lower or upper beam diagram of the TAR, thus indicating the elevation angle of the target.
In that moment, guidance radar antenna as well as missile launchers on SPL-s are turned and guided towards the target position. SPL-s are receiving commands “TARGET” and “T.K” (Precise coordinates).
TAR Operator by using the control stick, is directing the guidance radar antenna towards target in azimuth, range and indication of elevation angle, on his ITC indicator, and when target appears in the guidance gates, he delivers the target to guidance radar for capture and automatic tracking.
Then, TAR Operator can, after receiving station Commanders orders, acquire another target on the IKO indicator as described earlier and switch it to his ITC indicator and direct the SPL-s towards a different target. In this way, the station crew are reducing the time for transfer of the fire to another target.

*Guidance radar Operator Workplace
When the TAR Operator delivers the target to guidance radar for automatic tracking, he has already directed the guidance radar antenna towards the target in azimuth and range and indication of target elevation.
On the left we can see “Antenna Guidance Indicator” (orange colored) which is used for Guidance radar Operator to capture the target in azimuth and especially in elevation, by using azimuth and elevation wheels, and establish automatic target tracking with guidance antenna.
When the target is captured and automatic tracking is established, Guidance radar Operator is switching the Illumination transmitter on and reports to station Commander who will launch the missile upon the turning on of the missile read lamps.
On the right we can see “Range Indicator” (green colored) which is used for target tracking in two modes: up to 60 km, when amplitude of target, negative amplitude of strobe and precise amplitude of target illumination is showed, and in 2 km mode when only the precise amplitude of target illumination is showed as well as the target position in the middle.
Amplitude of the missile is shown in the last phase of the missile guidance. When the missile amplitude reaches the target illumination amplitude and passes through it, the target should be hit. Further evaluation and observation of results of shooting can be achieved by checking the target height (should be decreasing) and speed (should be decreasing)….

PS. Sorry for the small pictures. But if You save them on your computer, they can be enlarged so you can see the switches, lamps, indicators, launch buttons and other.....






Attached Files IKO i ITC krupnije - Copy - Copy.jpgKonzole nišanskog radara.jpg
Last edited by Kub operator; 12/14/19 06:42 PM.
#4500344 - 12/14/19 07:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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We would appreciate some marks on the photo

#4500406 - 12/15/19 12:14 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Originally Posted by Kub operator
Hello to everyone!
I was invited to this forum by @piston79, with whom I have been writing on MyCityMilitary forum.
I was a Kub operator in the former Yugoslav Army (VJ), and served as a Commander of SPL 2P25M1 (Self propelled launcher) in the Missile Battery and later as a Commander of radar station P-15M Flat Face in the Fire Command Battery of the Kub regiment. Also been active in the 1999. war, mostly as a Commander of P-15M and also as a Commander of SPL (to substitute for one of my colleagues)....
I am open for discussion on the Kub matter, and on the war experiences to the limit of my knowledge, and with respect to some informations that cannot be told at this time....


Welcome Kub operator!
Please share your experiences! with regard to opsec of course..

#4500427 - 12/15/19 06:13 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Kub operator Offline
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Thank you Muggs! smile

Well, from the very first night of Operation Allied Force 24/03/99, it was clear to us, that our problem would be acquiring and capturing the target without being hit by anti-radiation missiles. So, the very first step, acquire and capture of the target was the most dangerous one. So, we needed to find the way to acquire and capture the target without the use of target aquisition radar 1S11M2 (TAR).
Some missile batteries where hit in the first few nights in the process of finding targets by TAR, without being able to capture target and launch missiles.
The first thing was obviously to work through semi-automatic fire control system K-1M Krab, but the problem was in jamming of the telecode connections. Then we tried by connecting by wire, but then there was a problem of not being able to connect more than 1-2 missile batteries at the time, and the data flow was slow by wire, and we needed to have Fire Control Batterie and Missile batteries closer together.
Even so, we managed to "pull" 17 shootings via K-1M fire control system. But it just was not enough.
By the middle of April 1999. NATO planes started more often to attack by daytime in all of Serbia and Montenegro (former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia) especcialy over Serbian province of Kosovo.
That tactical move of NATO, enabled Kub missile batteries to start acquiring the target via TOV (televison optical kamera). Then, the total number of shootings and launches started to increase.
From the middle of April to the end of the war, first week of June, Kub missile bateries performed 16 shootings in TV mode and 10 shootings in combined mode.
TV mode means that the target was passively acquired by TOV and the missiles were launched with only illumination radar-transmitter turned on during the missile flight, and the target was tracked manually by the TOV control stick. No monopulse guidance radar transmitter emittion at all....while TAR was not even pulled up entirely.
Combined mode means that the target was passively acquired by TOV, but the guidance monopulse radar transmitter was turned on for a very short time to determine the distance to the target. Then it was turned of, and missile was launched with only illumination radar transmitter turned on during the missile flight, and the target was tracked manually as in TV mode...

In that way, Kub missile batteries managed to shoot 46 times with 70 missiles.
17 times in K-1M mode, 16 times in TV mode, 10 times in combined mode and 3 times autonomously (through full target acquisition, capture and guidance procedure as "by the book")...

This is to start.....If this is interesting to you all. we can continue with your questions, which I will answer to the very limit of my knowledge and with respect of some delicate information still not for public.....

Last edited by Kub operator; 12/15/19 07:35 PM.
#4500718 - 12/17/19 06:22 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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I can't see any difference between TV mode and Combined mode....

#4500734 - 12/17/19 08:08 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted by piston79
I can't see any difference between TV mode and Combined mode....


TV mode means that the target was passively acquired by TOV and the missiles were launched with only illumination radar-transmitter turned on during the missile flight, and the target was tracked manually by the TOV control stick. No monopulse guidance radar transmitter emittion at all....while TAR was not even pulled up entirely.
Combined mode means that the target was passively acquired by TOV, but the guidance monopulse radar transmitter was turned on for a very short time to determine the distance to the target. Then it was turned of, and missile was launched with only illumination radar transmitter turned on during the missile flight, and the target was tracked manually as in TV mode...


So, in TV mode, acquiring the target is done passively by using the TOV and the Control stick in the SURN cabine. When the target is acquired with the TOV, command "Mode II" (РЕЖИМ II) is turned on and the command "ЗАХВАТ У ВАЗДУХУ" (missile will acquire the target AFTER the launch) is formed in SPL-s (self propelled launcher) AKR (analogue command calculator) and transfered to the missile.
In the missile`s seeker a command "ЗАБРАНА ЗАХВАТА" (lock on ban - no lock on, on the launcher). In the SPL- launching block, the command for "blocking the launch" (which would normally be active) is disabled. That enables the launching of the missile, but only after the missile seeker signal, and not from the signal form launching block of the SPL, because the missile is reporting to the launching block that it acquired the target and that it is automaticaly tracking it.
From SPL, a command is sent to guidance and tracking radar SURN "ГОТОВОСТ" (Readiness for launch), no matter that the missile seeker did not acquire the target.
Then the missile is launched, illumination transmitter is on and it is illuminating the target and tail antena of the missile. Target is tracked with TOV by using the Control stick. The signals from CW illumination transmitter is reflected of the target and received in the GSN of the missile thus forming the commands for semi active radar self-guidance. The missile seeker will begin acquiring the target 4,5 seconds after it is launched by removing the command "ЗАБРАНА ЗАХВАТА" (lock on ban - no lock on, on the launcher). The difference in the reference signal received by the missile tail antenna, and then reflected of the target and received by the GSN, also measures the target speed and the speed of convergence.

This metod is usually used against low flying aircraft and the tactics include launching of several missiles.
But, we used it against aircraft flying at all altitudes and the illumination radar was usually turned on 2-3 seconds AFTER the missile launch to make the radiation time as short as possible.

In Combined mode, since the monopulse target tracking radar transmitter was turned on and determined the range of the target, the missile has acquired the target on the SPL (launcher). Then it is launched after the launching block of the SPL sent to SURN the command "READINESS", after receiving the information from the missile seeker that is is tracking the target.
Then, when the missile is launched, SURN operators turn monopulse target tracking radar of by using the switch "EKV" (equivalent) and continue to track the target by TOV. Illumination radar is turned on all of this time.....

So in Combined mode we have monopulse target tracking radar transmitter turned on for a few seconds and longer time of CW illuminator transmitter being turned on then in TV mode....

I hope I have explained this well in English language.....

#4500751 - 12/17/19 10:27 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Well, I see.... I thought the missile is command guided in the beginning...
Also I was a bit confused about the fact that SURN is transmitting not only in monopulse mode, but also in CW mode.... How the monopulse angle tracking is achieved with such antena (1S31M SN)?

#4500830 - 12/18/19 04:13 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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No, there is no radio-command guidance.
Target tracking and illumination radar 1S31M has 2 transmitters using the same parabolic antenna as a reflector. First one is for monopulse tracking of the target and guidance of the antenna towards the target, and the second one is for CW illumination of the target. They are based on the same rotation system, and as monopulse target tracking radar automatically tracks the target, it is forming the commands for moving the antenna for further tracking and for illumination. The same as in TV mode, the illumination transmitter is moving as the TOV is tracking the target manually from SURN cabine.
Target tracking monopulse transmitter and CW illumination transmitter work in different frequencies.
As for the missile, normally, it has a lock on target while on the SPL. When the missile is launched it flies in straight line, while the booster is working, to the projected position of the point of impact calculated by the missile while on SPL. When missile seeker starts semi-active guidance, it corrects the flight path of the missile to the impact point, while scanning in the direction of the target.

#4501041 - 12/20/19 12:33 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Is the missile radiofuse independant or it needs the CW transmition

#4501136 - 12/21/19 04:24 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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It needs CW illumination!

#4501158 - 12/21/19 07:55 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Well, would you share some wartime experience?

#4501408 - 12/24/19 02:49 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Kub operator: GREAT!!!! I will read thoroughly and will have some questions for sure :-)

#4503571 - 01/13/20 06:30 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Originally Posted by Kub operator
No, there is no radio-command guidance.
Target tracking and illumination radar 1S31M has 2 transmitters using the same parabolic antenna as a reflector. First one is for monopulse tracking of the target and guidance of the antenna towards the target, and the second one is for CW illumination of the target. They are based on the same rotation system, and as monopulse target tracking radar automatically tracks the target, it is forming the commands for moving the antenna for further tracking and for illumination. The same as in TV mode, the illumination transmitter is moving as the TOV is tracking the target manually from SURN cabine.
Target tracking monopulse transmitter and CW illumination transmitter work in different frequencies.
As for the missile, normally, it has a lock on target while on the SPL. When the missile is launched it flies in straight line, while the booster is working, to the projected position of the point of impact calculated by the missile while on SPL. When missile seeker starts semi-active guidance, it corrects the flight path of the missile to the impact point, while scanning in the direction of the target.


You come so late man , he's #%&*$# gone

#4504385 - 01/21/20 01:08 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Originally Posted by Kub operator
No, there is no radio-command guidance.
Target tracking and illumination radar 1S31M has 2 transmitters using the same parabolic antenna as a reflector. First one is for monopulse tracking of the target and guidance of the antenna towards the target, and the second one is for CW illumination of the target. They are based on the same rotation system, and as monopulse target tracking radar automatically tracks the target, it is forming the commands for moving the antenna for further tracking and for illumination. The same as in TV mode, the illumination transmitter is moving as the TOV is tracking the target manually from SURN cabine.
Target tracking monopulse transmitter and CW illumination transmitter work in different frequencies.


May I ask what is the purpose of having such a complicated dual frequency system? ECCM? If you are able to jam the tracker, you will throw away the antenna from the target, so the illumination will be also lost at some point. If you are able to jam the CW illumination channel, well, the antenna is still on target, but you lose the missile.

Seems kind of overcomplicated with no real benefit for ECCM. Just increases the number of ways you are vulnarable to the jammer.

#4505057 - 01/26/20 08:28 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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@jonas85

Well Jonas, I see You do realize that it is the receiving channel that is being jammed and not the transmitting one.
So. monopulse target tracking radar can be jammed, but in daytime you can use TOV (television optical system) as an "equivalent" to monopulse target tracking radar and continue illuminating the target with the CW illuminator.
Also, there is a possibility to manualy track the target with monopulse target tracking radar, if possible, and if jamming is not constant...
If you would have the CW illuminator as a transmitter and a receiver on radar antenna on the ground, you would be blocked from further tracking the target (example: HAWK).
Kub sistem has the opportunity to use TOV or other additional passive tracking devices (IR, for example).
When it comes to CW illuminator, it is a sort of "bistatic radar" in a way that receiver and transmitter are separated. Transmitter is on the SURN, and the receiver is missile SARH system. Of course, we can now discuss about the jamming of the SARH of the missile.
When it comes to missile 3M9 it is proven that it can be jammed more easily in a way that in needs 2,5 - 3 seconds to obtain "new" lock on the target during the flight, while flying the "projected trajectory" to the point of impact. If the missile does not acquire the target "by velocity" in that given time, it is lost.
However, it is proven also that the newer missile 3M9M3 has got much better anti-jamming capabilities, as it can obtain "new" lock on the target during the flight every 0,30 seconds while flying the projected trajectory. Also, it is proven, that it is not enough just to jamm the missile SARH system for a second or a part of a second (as the missile is moving), it is neccessary for jamming signal to "stay a while on the SARH" for the missile to lose the lock. But as I said, it can get "back on track" in 0,30 seconds!
So, it is not easy to jam the SARH system (1SB4M semi-active homing seeker) in the missile.
The other theme is using of the AN/ALE-50 and other active jammers, which do not jamm the missile or target tracking radar so it can not engage the target, but instead it misleads them by receiving and then re-emitting the signal in the same frequency and higher intensity thus "tricking" the missile SARH and leading it to AN/ALE-50 instead to the target.....

Last edited by Kub operator; 01/26/20 08:28 PM.
#4505146 - 01/27/20 02:52 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Yep. I think the AN/ALE-50 is the main reason that SA-6 haven't got a manned plane on this war...
Did you know about some close calls with SA-6, also any other destroyed targets (cruise missiles, projectiles, drones, etc.)

#4505165 - 01/27/20 06:58 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Kub operator Offline
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Well Piston, as you had the chance to read in my topic "Controversies of Air War 24/03/99 - 24/06/99" on MCM forum, I have invested some of my time to find some western sources that could support a certain claim. It is easy to clame a shootdown of a plane, but it is harder to back it up with some evidence of at least some sources that could be "controversial".
Since I have read and learned a lot from Your SAM simulator Tutorials (I do not play simulator) about SAM systems such as 2K11 Krug, 9K33 Osa and other, I feel that it would be only fair to share some info with all of You, that might be interesting.

"B-1B Lancer Units in Combat", Autor: Thomas Withington, Publisher: Osprey Combat Airfcraft, Botley-Oxford.

Quote:
“DESERT FOX AND NOBLE ANVIL

The first B-1B mission occurred on 2 April against the Novi Sud petroleum production facility at Pancevo, northeast of Belgrade. Although ONA was originally limited to only ‘tactical’ targets at the start of the campaign, it became clear that hitting such sites alone would not persuade President Milosevic to fold. Instead, the target set was expanded to cover ‘strategic’ installations such as the Novi Sud facility, which was literally helping to oil the Serbian war machine. The combined load of 168 Mk 82 ‘slicks’ dropped from the two bombers that were sortied had no trouble knocking out the key sections of the plant.
These Mk 82 bombs are lined up on an ammunition-handling truck, waiting to be loaded into the weapons bay of the 77th BS Lancer parked in the background. The access ladder in the crew compartment is down and the aircraft awaits the arrival of the four-man team who will fly the bomber over western Europe and the Adriatic Sea and then onto its targets in Serbia and Kosovo (B-1B Systems Program Office)

However, after the bomb run, the weapons bay doors on one of the B-1Bs failed to close. The Lancer was subsequently targeted by a Serbian SAM, although a combination of defensive manoeuvres, chaff and electronic countermeasures defeated the missile. The weapon succeeded in forcing the bomber into the engagement zone of a second SAM, however, which the crew was also able to defeat. According to the pilot of the aircraft, Capt Gerald Goodfellow, at the first indication of a SAM launch ‘your training kicks in. It feels very natural. You don’t really think about it until later on, when the mission is completed. You take on an almost business-like attitude. You have to beat that missile. When I’m up there, my biggest worry isn’t about getting shot down, but about missing the target. As a whole, the crew is concentrating as one putting those bombs on target’. The open weapons bay doors and the manoeuvring of the aircraft caused Goodfellow’s Lancer to use more fuel than anticipated, leaving the bomber with insufficient fuel to return to Fairford. During the mission, the B-1B was also struck by lightning, which blew off a section of the aircraft’s horizontal stabiliser, but the crew was still able to get the aircraft home. Goodfellow remembered that ‘we felt a huge relief at the completion of the mission. The SAMs came closer than we’d anticipated, and after thinking about it for a couple of days, we were glad to have survived’.
Retired Air Force Chief of Staff Gen John Jumper was Commander USAFE and Commander Allied Air Forces Central Europe during OAF, and he remembers clearly how well the AN/ALE-50 towed decoy worked on this first mission: "The pair of B-1Bs came down south over the Adriatic Sea information with their ALE-50 towed decoys deployed, and we watched the radars in Montenegro track the bombers as they turned the corner around Macedonia and headed up into Kosovo. We watched the radars, in real time, hand off the targets to the SA-6s, which came upon full-target track and fired their missiles. Those missiles took the ALE-50s off the back end of the B-1s just like they were designed to..."
“Lancer 85-0075 of the 77th BS sits under a partially cloudy Gloucestershire sky whilst being readied for another mission to Serbia. This aircraft left Fairford a mere 11 days after its arrival. The jet’s early departure, in contrast with some of the other aircraft deployed, may have been due to mechanical problems (B-1B Program Office)...END QUOTE

So as You can see, this B1B was engaged by a Kub missile batery that launched 2 missiles. The rest You can read in this quotation from the book. They claim that the aircraft "manouvered and beat the missiles" (bomber manouvered Kub missile?) . But because of that manouvering and because weapons bay door did not close, they used more fuel than expected and needed to be refueled. During this mission they were also "struck by a lightning" (Kub missile?) which blew of a part of the aicraft horizontal stabiliser, but the crew was able to return to Fairford. It happened on the 02/04/99, and the aircraft left the Fairford on 11/04/99 because of the "mechanical problems". The aircraft that replaced him, arrived in Fairford on 08/04/99...

So, this is the first controversy, but certainly a proof that Kub missiles were very close to hitting th B1B, with some chance that perhaps some fragments perhaps hit the aircrafts horizontal stabilizer, even if they flew towards AN/ALE-50...

Maybe some comments and then we can continue? smile

#4505166 - 01/27/20 07:10 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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piston79 Offline
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I think it is more interesting to share stories from SAM crews... We all could read those US stories, but your part of story is unknown...

Did you ever succeed in matching this raid with certain SA-6 activity in the area? (You posted a shootout between SA-6 battery and a HARM carrier recorded by a news cameraman in a live news report during war... wink

Last edited by piston79; 01/27/20 08:02 PM.
#4505816 - 02/01/20 06:02 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Kub operator]  
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Jonas85 Online content
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@Kub operator,

thanks for explaining this! Now I understand the ECCM logic in KUB a bit more. That's some really deep technical knowledge I must say!

I was also thinking a bit what you said on the SARH jamming in CW channel. I agree it would be EXTREMELY difficult to spoof a missile. Monopulse itself is notoriously resistant against angles jamming. Crosseye demands a very great precision in controling the jammer beam directivity and phase wavefront with respect of a target to cause disturbances. This means you need an extremely precise and stable jammer platform and a cooperative target, which I don't believe to be possible against a fast moving missile (but I don't really know for sure the todays advancements in the field, so I might be easily be wrong on this). Also, you cannot use cross-polarization jamming either, if you don't know the exact polarization of a missile SARH receiver or if it has polarizer filter to eliminate the effects. So probably the only really usefull technique is velocity-gate pull of or trying to wreak havoc with the fuse. Group targets could also use sinchronized blinking against missile in CW channel.

But in any attempt to actively jam the SARH missile you would of course self-illuminate for the missile Home-On-Jam.

Last edited by Jonas85; 02/01/20 11:17 PM.
#4515355 - 04/08/20 06:28 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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piston79 Offline
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@Kub operator, what kind of ECM you observed during 1999?

#4515774 - 04/11/20 09:26 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Vaderini Online content
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nvm...

Last edited by Vaderini; 04/11/20 09:38 AM.
#4516002 - 04/12/20 03:51 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Vaderini]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
nvm...



What's that?

#4516051 - 04/12/20 08:05 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Vaderini Online content
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I asked a question which was literally answered a few pages back, so I deleted the question since it didn't matter anymore and was quite stupid to ask. smile

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