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#3685014 - 11/19/12 07:21 PM SA-6 Gainful  
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wasserfall Offline
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(No; i'm not going to create a topic for every SAM there is; but this one is the next logical step forward)

So here i want to talk about the 2K12 Kub; aka the SA-6 gainful. It was probably one of the most dangerous threats of the 70ies up to the 90ies, even if today it is obsolete, it is credited with around 50 kills; some of them friendly-fire incidents. It's a widespread system and has seen a lot of action


Famous 1973 picture from the Yom Kippur War


Kub in active Hungarian service. Could this be an obstacle to us seeing it here?

It uses the 1S91 Straight Flush radar, looks similar to the Krug's 1S32
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Engagement-Fire-Control.html#mozTocId776539

First and second operator console
Click to reveal..


Third operator console
Click to reveal..


1S91 teleconsole
Click to reveal..

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3685024 - 11/19/12 07:36 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Originally Posted By: wasserfall
(No; i'm not going to create a topic for every SAM there is; but this one is the next logical step forward)

So here i want to talk about the 2K12 Kub; aka the SA-6 gainful. It was probably one of the most dangerous threats of the 70ies up to the 90ies, even if today it is obsolete, it is credited with around 50 kills; some of them friendly-fire incidents. It's a widespread system and has seen a lot of action



A famous target...




Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Kub in active Hungarian service. Could this be an obstacle to us seeing it here?


Exactly.

Originally Posted By: wasserfall
It uses the 1S91 Straight Flush radar, looks similar to the Krug's 1S32


Could not been more different than that...


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685031 - 11/19/12 07:46 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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i dont see any abstacle reading

because we want original sa-6 not upgraded......
hungarian air defense can use sa-6 upgraded for ever...because we want use original KUB not upgraded KUB.

(there is so far technology between original KUB and upgraded KUB) yep

Right Hpasp ? biggrin

Last edited by milang; 11/19/12 08:11 PM.
#3685046 - 11/19/12 08:17 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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wasserfall Offline
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Quote:
Exactly.

Ouch!!

Then let's forget the Kub; what about the 2K12E Kvadrat? It is this version that was exported to the middle east. It would be like simulating only the SA-2F and not the SA-2E. What are you thoughts on this?

#3685052 - 11/19/12 08:27 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Originally Posted By: wasserfall
Quote:
Exactly.

Ouch!!

Then let's forget the Kub; what about the 2K12E Kvadrat? It is this version that was exported to the middle east. It would be like simulating only the SA-2F and not the SA-2E. What are you thoughts on this?


nope


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685068 - 11/19/12 08:52 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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wasserfall Offline
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ugh...
> http://www.zmne.hu/aarms/docs/Volume7/Issue4/pdf/05varg.pdf
> SA-6 is only SAM in Hungarian inventory
> They just had a comprehensive upgrade program
> No replacement on the horizon

I guess we can forget about it.

Last edited by wasserfall; 11/19/12 08:59 PM.
#3685270 - 11/20/12 05:33 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Mdore Offline
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How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.

#3685303 - 11/20/12 08:05 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.


OSA was never fielded in Hungary...

...hungary had only: SA-2A/B/E/F, SA-3B, SA-4B, SA-5B, SA-6A, SA-7, SA-9, SA-13, SA-16, and recently Mistral.

#3685308 - 11/20/12 08:50 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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little part on upgraded kub in hungary from the

new capabilities of the
hungarian ground base air defense forces



SA6 weapon system modernization list


...........Scale of the upgrade of SA6 fire control radar (Surveillance and Missile Guiding
Station) and launcher is laid in detail on the WZU2 Co. homepage.
10 Main effects of
the modernization and overhaul of this weapon system carried out by WZU2 and
ARZENL Co. in general are as follows:

1. Increased resistance to passive and active interference.

2. Increased detection of low radar cross-section targets.

3. Passive day and night target acquisition with long range thermo visual and
television cameras.

4. Application of IFF (target identification) system (Mark XII Mode 4 standard).

5. Use of advanced spare parts allowing the supply of replacement spare parts
necessary for normal operations.

6. Introduction of advanced methods and algorithms for digital data processing.

7. Enhanced radio electronic camouflage ECCM
xix
8. by application of radar sector
blanking system.

9. Elimination of adjustments and tuning for upgraded systems.

10.Growth capability to launch state-of-the-art (fire and forget) missiles. rolleyes

Integration of dehumidification system.

Air conditioned crew cabin



gyuz ... with this list of modernization , thinking again about sa-6 on samsim is a really waste of time!

Last edited by milang; 11/20/12 09:47 AM.
#3685315 - 11/20/12 09:29 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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Mdore Offline
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Or maybe it's so modernised that you can consider it a new weapon system. So SAM simulator can simulate the old SA-6 without giving away any new secrets or capabilities of the new system?

#3685322 - 11/20/12 10:04 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
Or maybe it's so modernised that you can consider it a new weapon system. So SAM simulator can simulate the old SA-6 without giving away any new secrets or capabilities of the new system?


I ran these rounds long ago with the Hungarian authorities.
Not any KUB version is expected in the SAMSIM, while it is in Hungarian service, and until its classification is removed.


Last edited by Hpasp; 11/20/12 10:14 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685328 - 11/20/12 10:29 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Mdore]  
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.



Hope this put the end mark:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357

#3685332 - 11/20/12 10:35 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

Hope this put the end mark:
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357



i could be very happy if you see this page and stay quite seehearspeak

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3606870/331.html

Last edited by milang; 11/20/12 10:36 AM.
#3685342 - 11/20/12 11:02 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: farokh]  
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Originally Posted By: milang


i could be very happy if you see this page and stay quite seehearspeak

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3606870/331.html


I've expected to see Unclassified Operating Manuals, but instead I found...YOU?

#3685350 - 11/20/12 11:41 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: piston79]  
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Mdore Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Mdore
How about the SA-8 / 9K33 Osa ? I think that might be a pretty good system to have in SAM Simulator. And it's not in Hungarian service so Hpasp could do it.



Hope this put the end mark:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3561357/Re_SAM_Simulator.html#Post3561357


Aww.

I have SA-8 manuals, but the other two necessities I cannot provide frown

So, I guess after the ZSU-23-4 that's the end of new systems for this simulator? Though I hope Hpasp can give us new missions and bug fixes even if there are no new systems. Maybe one day a mission editor or generator too.

#3685532 - 11/20/12 04:51 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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wasserfall Offline
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Quote:

I do not really understand your high expectations for a 2K12 KUB (SA-6A) simulator.

It is the most complex, and least user-friendly SAM system, I've ever known.

The NATO code name: "Straight Flush" is pretty much on the spot...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_flush#Straight_flush
... it points to the fact, that the SURN (fire control radar) officers has the complexity of using 5 different frequency radar systems during one engagement.
banghead

Just multiply the complexity of the S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B) with five...


:O skyisfalling

Last edited by wasserfall; 11/20/12 04:51 PM.
#3686274 - 11/21/12 08:43 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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farokh Offline
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hpasp ... if you one day in the future .. decide to create sa-6 for sam sim .. witch sa-6 is your choice ?

Orginal sa-6 Or Upgraded sa-6 ?

what is sa-6A ?

A Series is Kvardat ?

#3686975 - 11/23/12 12:00 AM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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wasserfall Offline
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I have no idea what SA-6A is; i assume it's the NATO code for the Kvadrat. I'd want that one; the real Kub hasn't seen as much action. Then again, i might want to grow a few extra arms.
Anyhow; i have one more reason to hate Jobbik now, lol

#3695684 - 12/09/12 01:24 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: wasserfall]  
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From Wester sources...


The Yom Kippur War began on Saturday, October 6, 1973, with an attack by Syrian MiG-17s on Israeli positions on the Golan Heights, followed by an assault by 700 Syrian tanks. Simultaneously, Egyptian forces launched an assault across the Suez Canal. Total surprise was achieved, and Israel was suddenly faced with the greatest threat to its existence since the War of Independence of 1948.

In the opening Egyptian attack on October 6, 1973, a pair of Phantoms were able to scramble and shoot down seven enemy aircraft. On the same day, Phantoms intercepted Mil Mi-8 helicopters attempting to land commandos in Sinai, and destroyed five of them.

On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites, but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6 Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery. The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in mid-afternoon.

The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system. In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band.

The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while in flight.

One technique that was occasionally effective against SA-6 missile sites was to use dive-bombing attacks against them. When launched, the SA-6 took off at a relatively shallow angle which steepened as it climbed and accelerated. In order to take advantage of this weakness, the attacking plane would approach the site from a high altitude and then dive down on the battery as steeply as possible.

The fix for the SA-6 problem proved to be in figuring out a way to detect the launch. Hurried modifications of Israeli radar warning receivers were made in the field, assisted by a lot of people in the United States burning the midnight oil in trying to come up with a solution. By the third day of the war, equipment was in the field which could produce a reliable squeal in a pilot's earphone whenever a SA-6 launch occurred in his direction. If the SA-6 launch could be detected, violent evasive maneuvers were often effective in throwing it off the target. These maneuvers turned the side of the aircraft toward the incoming missile and sharpened the missile's turning angle. This would sometimes cause the SA-6 to lose its lock. Another tactic which sometimes worked was for two planes to carry out a "split-S" maneuver, with the lead plane diving sharply into and across the missile's approach while the following plane dove across the first plane's vapor trail. After the third day of the war, these techniques began to work and losses to SA-6s began to drop sharply.

Last edited by Hpasp; 12/09/12 01:31 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3697161 - 12/11/12 09:25 PM Re: SA-6 Gainful [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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so ... when hpasp want to create kub... he should add split-s an other maneuvers for rescue aircrafts in samsim thumbsup

TNQ to HpasP for last post in GAINFUL topic popcorn

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
From Wester sources...

. These maneuvers turned the side of the aircraft toward the incoming missile and sharpened the missile's turning angle. This would sometimes cause the SA-6 to lose its lock. Another tactic which sometimes worked was for two planes to carry out a "split-S" maneuver, with the lead plane diving sharply into and across the missile's approach while the following plane dove across the first plane's vapor trail. After the third day of the war, these techniques began to work and losses to SA-6s began to drop sharply.




Last edited by farokh; 12/11/12 09:43 PM.
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