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#3667416 - 10/22/12 02:00 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: ]  
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Originally Posted By: Troll
Originally Posted By: Pooch
But no "what if" planes, or Tiger Moths.


How dare you, sir! ;-)
Seriously, I agree. No "what if"! While I agree that it would be cool to have every aircraft and variant that ever flew during the great war, I think other content like maps and new features would be more interesting. For instance, the channel map and seaplanes are much more interesting than another variant of the Albatros.


In your opinion. Some of us have wanted the Johannisthal Albatros D.III since day 1. The ones we have now are so poopy (the D.Va cannot stall???) that I have to think a new attempt would yield a more interesting result.

I would also buy a DH5 or an HD1. Just give me something exciting, not a flying bathtub. yep

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#3667430 - 10/22/12 02:20 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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Yeah, I think that we'll eventually get those, too. They are FAR from done with this. I can see developement of this sim going on for years, really. Unless the world blows up in November, of course. We are an impatient lot, though, aren't we.
And "poopy." Is that an aeronautical engineering term?


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#3667457 - 10/22/12 03:43 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Pooch]  
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Even this little outlook is already promissing, trimming will be a nice addition...

Regarding the little speculations, there are still plenty of "real" combatants left before we have to consider/expand the "what-ifs".
Many were already named, to me seriously missed is the Strutter, the HD.1 for the channel map (Belgians and french Navy used it), a german "medium" bomber in the AEG G.IV (faster than the Gotha and higher bombload than DFW), MoS AI for the Americans, ....

#3667935 - 10/23/12 08:49 AM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
]I would also buy a DH5 or an HD1. Just give me something exciting, not a flying bathtub. yep


TBH, I dont have anything against channel map or floatplanes, that is, that we have this part of warfare...BUT...I think ppl wanted and asked for something completely different, lets say, D7 with DIIIau engine, early 2 seaters, more french planes, Snipe, Siemens...say it...all of those would be much more popular. I mean, Brandenburg W12 is cool but I rarely see it online. So whats the point in spending (right now) time for planes which will rarely fly online or which wont be bestsellers....?? Then again, we didnt see a single FM fix for a long time....Somebody at ROF forum mentioned a cool idea for devs...They could make an engine variant of one existing plane (for which it should take less time and resources) and to use additional free time to make one FM fix...one by one...Said that, some of us are still open for donations to speed up the FM fixes....why not?

Last edited by Tvrdi; 10/23/12 08:53 AM.

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#3668054 - 10/23/12 01:56 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Originally Posted By: Tvrdi
TBH, I dont have anything against channel map or floatplanes, that is, that we have this part of warfare...BUT...I think ppl wanted and asked for something completely different,...


Well, not all people. Many that I know of are quite happy with this choice of 777 and are very excited to have it when it comes out, myself included.

Quote:
I mean, Brandenburg W12 is cool but I rarely see it online. So whats the point in spending (right now) time for planes which will rarely fly online or which wont be bestsellers....??


Please remember that online is not the only way to play this game. 777 didn't have to release the WB12 when they did but did so because people (there's that generalized term again) were getting psyched about the channel map and planes that are coming out and had seen pics of it, plus they needed some more investment capitol to pay the employees to make sure the map and planes do come out. Offline with the right match ups the WB12 is a hoot and a lot of fun. Online people don't always match planes as well as they could.

Quote:
Then again, we didnt see a single FM fix for a long time....Somebody at ROF forum mentioned a cool idea for devs...They could make an engine variant of one existing plane (for which it should take less time and resources) and to use additional free time to make one FM fix...one by one...Said that, some of us are still open for donations to speed up the FM fixes....why not?


Ya know, you can't please everyone with the choices that are made, obviously, and you know this. Those that don't get what they think is most important tend to complain about it, human nature I guess. 777 has their own road map that they want to follow based on their own ideas and what they gleam from the community. As you know, it's a small team that has very limited resources, i.e., money, and they do what they can. Knowing what little I do about Jason from reading his posts for many years (long before he assumed this position) I know he would love to do everything that everyone wants and then some! But being businessman he has to face the realities of the limitations on hand. Having my own small business I understand what it's like to have to prioritize things and stick to a guideline with limited money. In the beginning of this game, I had major complaints about certain choices that were made (before Jason even took the reins), mainly the online requirement, and voiced them and heard the words that they said in terms of what they planned and wanted to do. Having heard many other game companies do the same and fall way short or be forced by the publisher to cancel things I was highly skeptical of NeoQB/777 actually following through with what I had read of their plans. Over the months and now years I saw that they actually were doing what they said and I became I fan, not so much because I'm really into WWI (I'm not actually but have gotten way more into it because of this game/company) but because they are an honest bunch that do the best they can with what they have and I support them as best I can as I feel they deserve it. So even though they don't always do/give/offer what I want when I want I still think it's one hell of a team that deserves my support so I cut them slack when needed. Of course, not everyone sees it that way...
salute


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#3668064 - 10/23/12 02:20 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: -Avatar-]  
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Originally Posted By: -Avatar-
Well, not all people. Many that I know of are quite happy with this choice of 777 and are very excited to have it when it comes out, myself included.

Many? So you here saying that majority would like W12 before, lets say, early war planes, before snipe, Fe2 or even Simenes Sch DIV...or..or. strutter....pick your list. I doubt.

Originally Posted By: -Avatar-

Please remember that online is not the only way to play this game. 777 didn't have to release the WB12 when they did but did so because people (there's that generalized term again) were getting psyched about the channel map and planes that are coming out and had seen pics of it, plus they needed some more investment capitol to pay the employees to make sure the map and planes do come out. Offline with the right match ups the WB12 is a hoot and a lot of fun. Online people don't always match planes as well as they could.

I will buy that and I know that most ROF folks are offliners so MP (read FM fixes) is somehow less important. But I had a chat with some offliners and they said they would like FM fixes too. I described earlier how FM fixes could be "charged". The problem is one guy (cool dude named Petrovich) at 777 is doing all the FM work and probably not only because they dont have money for another employee. Then again, I repeat, Im (and Im not alone) still open for donations.

Originally Posted By: -Avatar-

Ya know, you can't please everyone with the choices that are made, obviously, and you know this. Those that don't get what they think is most important tend to complain about it, human nature I guess. 777 has their own road map that they want to follow based on their own ideas and what they gleam from the community. As you know, it's a small team that has very limited resources, i.e., money, and they do what they can. Knowing what little I do about Jason from reading his posts for many years (long before he assumed this position) I know he would love to do everything that everyone wants and then some! But being businessman he has to face the realities of the limitations on hand. Having my own small business I understand what it's like to have to prioritize things and stick to a guideline with limited money. In the beginning of this game, I had major complaints about certain choices that were made (before Jason even took the reins), mainly the online requirement, and voiced them and heard the words that they said in terms of what they planned and wanted to do. Having heard many other game companies do the same and fall way short or be forced by the publisher to cancel things I was highly skeptical of NeoQB/777 actually following through with what I had read of their plans. Over the months and now years I saw that they actually were doing what they said and I became I fan, not so much because I'm really into WWI (I'm not actually but have gotten way more into it because of this game/company) but because they are an honest bunch that do the best they can with what they have and I support them as best I can as I feel they deserve it. So even though they don't always do/give/offer what I want when I want I still think it's one hell of a team that deserves my support so I cut them slack when needed. Of course, not everyone sees it that way...
salute

You would be a decent lawyer. You know, at the end we are in the same boat (more or less that is) but some of us are more vocal. I can still be a supporter of this sim (talking to friends about it, buying stuff - which I do) but that doesnt mean Im ostrich with the head sticked into the sand and hands clapping on their every move. That said Im 100% sure that I said what MP folks wants when I mentioned FM fixes which we didnt have for almost a year. Some of us cant fully enjoy this great sim knowing that it has some of the biggest innacuracies in relative performances between planes (on ex. camel which could catch an albie, 2 rarest versions of D7, Pup climbing like F16 etc etc...). All my/our guilt is that we want great sim to be super great even when relative FM performances between planes is considering...Dont know if you rememeber but devs mentioned (on their blog) back in the february, that there will be more FM fixes in 2012....Youve said they are listening...thats true but its somehow odd picks...you have a topic on ROF forum with virtualy everyone asking for most common variant of D7....willl this be a pick from devs, "you asked for"? hmm
salute


Last edited by Tvrdi; 10/23/12 02:30 PM.

Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
#3668067 - 10/23/12 02:30 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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I guess the simple reason why we already have the W12 now is that they needed a plane to test the engine changes for the "new" water of the channel map.
Not to mention that the plane development is at least in parts a sequential process and they eventually have to start to have something available by the time the channel map is finished.

#3668069 - 10/23/12 02:33 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: WhoCares]  
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Originally Posted By: WhoCares
I guess the simple reason why we already have the W12 now is that they needed a plane to test the engine changes for the "new" water of the channel map.
Not to mention that the plane development is at least in parts a sequential process and they eventually have to start to have something available by the time the channel map is finished.


Ofcourse. There was some blokes who asked for cccchannel map so its natural they decided to make an "usable plane" for it. Never mind, the most important thing is that they prevail in this world of sims which is a very small market....

Last edited by Tvrdi; 10/23/12 02:34 PM.

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#3668084 - 10/23/12 02:56 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Tvrdi]  
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Originally Posted By: Tvrdi
Many? So you here saying that majority would like W12 before, lets say, early war planes, before snipe, Fe2 or even Simenes Sch DIV...or..or. strutter....pick your list. I doubt.


Wow, how do you go from "many" to the majority? No, I wasn't implying any such thing. I haven't done a poll (not that it would be fully representative by any means even if I did) so there's no way I would make such a claim. But surely, based on the reaction here and on their forum you can see that there are "many" people who are happy about the channel map and planes. Does it mean that was at the top of their list? No, not in all cases, but they're still happy about it nonetheless.

Quote:
I will buy that and I know that most ROf folks are offliners so MP (read FM fixes) is somehow less important. But I described earlier how FM fixes could be "charged". The problem is one gy at 777 is doing all the FM tihngs and probaly not only because they dont have money for another employee. Then again, I repeat me and folks I talked are still open for donations of any kind.


Hey, I'm not saying that FM changes are less important, just explaining the reality of the situation and how they are making their choices is all. I don't think everyone would be as easy going about charging for FM changes as you are. BTW, how do you know their financial status and that they can afford to hire another employee just to do it? Guessing here? smile

Quote:
You would be a decent lawyer.


Hey! No need to get insulting! wink

Quote:
You know, at the end we are in the same boat (more or less that is) but some of us are more vocal.


Yup, that's obvious. I am apparently not as passionate about this game as you are. There's nothing wrong with being vocal but there are many ways of expressing one's opinion that don't have to involve overly negative tones or personal attacks. Not saying that you are doing this in your first post that I quoted just to be clear.

Quote:
I can still be a supporter of this sim (talking to friends about it, buying stuff - which I do) but that doesnt mean Im ostrich with the head sticked into the sand and hands clapping on their every move.


LOL, so now you seem to imply I'm a fanboy of some sort "clapping my hands on their every move" just because I'm cutting them some slack? Wow, I've been labeled and categorized just because I'm appearing to stick up for them...

Quote:
That said Im 100% sure that I didnt say anything which many MP folks wants when I mentioned FM fixes which we didnt have for almost a year. Some of us cant fully enjoy this great sim knowing that it has some of the biggest innacuracies in relative performances between planes (on ex. camel which could catch an albie, 2 rarest versions of D7, Pup climbing like F16 etc etc...).


Hey, I'm right there with you. Even though I don't do much online play I still want to see FM changes like you do and I know that Jason and team do, too. But you almost come across in some of your previous posts over the past year that Jason and team somehow don't want this just because it's not happening on your desired time frame.

Quote:
All my/our guilt is that we want great sim to be super great even when relative FM performances between planes is considering...


I don't think anyone would have a different opinion whether they be 777 or the customer.

Quote:
Dont know if you rememeber but devs mentioned (on their blog) back in the february, that there will be more FM fixes in 2012....


I do, but personally, I would wait until at least 2013 before I started to criticize them for not doing it as we still have over 1/6 of the year left.

Again, we have more in common than not, we just have different ways of expressing ourselves I guess. It's probably human nature to just complain about the negatives in life, I know I do my share about things I consider important, but it's a rare thing to see people actually acknowledge when someone does something right or good. It's like people just expect it and don't have to acknowledge it (not talking about you here at all, just generalizing, okay?). A good example is the concept of a TIP here in the States. TIP actually stands for to improve performance and was a reward for service above the norm, but in our society people actually expect it regardless of how good or poor their performance actually is! Tipping has gone way overboard in this country where even gas station attendants will stick a friggin' tip jar on the counter just for taking your money and giving you change... So what you term "hands clapping on their every move" is just me going out of my way to acknowledge good behavior and business practice, nothing more, nothing less. All because I want to see it continue. If everyone of us complained about what we weren't getting when we wanted it I don't 777 would still be doing business, I know I wouldn't be.

salute


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#3668168 - 10/23/12 05:22 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: -Avatar-]  
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Originally Posted By: -Avatar-

Quote:
That said Im 100% sure that I didnt say anything which many MP folks wants when I mentioned FM fixes which we didnt have for almost a year. Some of us cant fully enjoy this great sim knowing that it has some of the biggest innacuracies in relative performances between planes (on ex. camel which could catch an albie, 2 rarest versions of D7, Pup climbing like F16 etc etc...).


Hey, I'm right there with you. Even though I don't do much online play I still want to see FM changes like you do and I know that Jason and team do, too. But you almost come across in some of your previous posts over the past year that Jason and team somehow don't want this just because it's not happening on your desired time frame.


There is a timeframe for FM improvements? Now I am confused. I thought 777 had stopped doing them.

If you don't play MP much, then you don't have a stake in it. In single player you can shoot down any plane with the E.III or DH2. duh

#3668217 - 10/23/12 06:24 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Originally Posted By: -Avatar-

Quote:
That said Im 100% sure that I didnt say anything which many MP folks wants when I mentioned FM fixes which we didnt have for almost a year. Some of us cant fully enjoy this great sim knowing that it has some of the biggest innacuracies in relative performances between planes (on ex. camel which could catch an albie, 2 rarest versions of D7, Pup climbing like F16 etc etc...).


Hey, I'm right there with you. Even though I don't do much online play I still want to see FM changes like you do and I know that Jason and team do, too. But you almost come across in some of your previous posts over the past year that Jason and team somehow don't want this just because it's not happening on your desired time frame.


There is a timeframe for FM improvements? Now I am confused. I thought 777 had stopped doing them.

If you don't play MP much, then you don't have a stake in it. In single player you can shoot down any plane with the E.III or DH2. duh


They've never explicitly stated that FM improvements were no longer happening. My guess is that the FM people at 777 have been tied up with getting the seaplanes working and that they'll move on to FM revisions once that work is complete.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

#3668239 - 10/23/12 06:48 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
[quote=-Avatar-]There is a timeframe for FM improvements? Now I am confused. I thought 777 had stopped doing them.


I'm not saying that there is a definitive time frame for this, only that it has been acknowledged as an issue and there is a desire to fix what can be fix it time resources/permit. Of course this is all based on what I've read of blogs and forum posts so it's not like an official statement. smile I don't work for 777 and am definitely not their spokesperson.

Quote:
If you don't play MP much, then you don't have a stake in it. In single player you can shoot down any plane with the E.III or DH2. duh


Uh... okay, if you say so... but I totally disagree with that statement. screwy Meaning, I can definitely have a stake in it regardless of how much MP I do. Who would want to be able to "shoot down any plane with the E.III or DH2" I obviously don't have your uber skilz nor would I want them as that would make the game no fun at all IMHO.


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#3668245 - 10/23/12 07:00 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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I am calling BS on that. Make a video of you shooting down a camel on veteran with an EIII.

It would be more likely to happen online as I have run into a few people who didnt know what they were doing and I took advantage of them. But the AI... in a 1-1 fight with no HO... I just dont see that happening to be honest.

Last edited by Master; 10/23/12 07:01 PM.
#3668250 - 10/23/12 07:11 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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Challenge accepted. thumbsup

After all, Peter Zvan already shot down 9 ace SE5s with the Dr1. 1 veteran Camel with the E.III is doable. Afterward I will shoot down a veteran Dr1 with the DH2 for good measure. neaner

#3668260 - 10/23/12 07:30 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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Also tell us how many tries it takes smile and no HO kills! smile

I have no doubt you could get a lucky shot in on the pilot but generally I dont think this is feasible. Even with the poor AI you are out gunned, out performed and out maneuvered.

Also, try a dh2 vs dviiF smile

Last edited by Master; 10/23/12 07:31 PM.
#3668264 - 10/23/12 07:36 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master
you are out gunned, out performed and out maneuvered.

But there is the Mutara Nebula at one five three mark four. The odds will be even.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 10/23/12 07:37 PM.

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#3668284 - 10/23/12 08:20 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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I must admit that they made few nice surprises, on ex. - fixing bullet dispersion....that somehow reduced camels and DRis uberness in ROF because, even though they are still too fast (and too good at alt) they cant snipe hangin on prop, as tehy could before....If I see FM fixes before 2013 I will buy another ROF copy for a friend. It comes to this. Support for the effort. You care - I care.

Last edited by Tvrdi; 10/23/12 08:21 PM.

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#3668351 - 10/23/12 10:08 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: Mogster]  
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I would love to see some additional two seaters myself, since the scout fleet is already well stocked for the 1916-18 period.

Regarding FM fixes, I would like to see some tweaked, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as some posters on the ROF board would have you believe, most planes are already within 5-10% of their performance envelope.

For example:

1. The 130 hp Clerget engined Camel did reach 113mph (181 kmh)@ 10,000 feet in published flight tests, same speed it has in ROF;

2. The mercedes D.III/D.IIIa engined Albatros D.II/III/V did only reach a top speed of 165-175 kmh (102-108 mph) in published flight tests, same speed they have in ROF;

3. The Sopwith PuP does climb faster in RoF than in RL, 13 min. 20 sec. to 10,000 feet in Rof vs. 14 min. 25 sec. in a published flight test which is still only a 8% improvement. The top speed however is the same in ROF as in RL.


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#3668371 - 10/23/12 10:41 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: 2Lt_Joch]  
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Originally Posted By: 2Lt_Joch
I would love to see some additional two seaters myself, since the scout fleet is already well stocked for the 1916-18 period.

Regarding FM fixes, I would like to see some tweaked, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as some posters on the ROF board would have you believe, most planes are already within 5-10% of their performance envelope.

For example:

1. The 130 hp Clerget engined Camel did reach 113mph (181 kmh)@ 10,000 feet in published flight tests, same speed it has in ROF;

2. The mercedes D.III/D.IIIa engined Albatros D.II/III/V did only reach a top speed of 165-175 kmh (102-108 mph) in published flight tests, same speed they have in ROF;

3. The Sopwith PuP does climb faster in RoF than in RL, 13 min. 20 sec. to 10,000 feet in Rof vs. 14 min. 25 sec. in a published flight test which is still only a 8% improvement. The top speed however is the same in ROF as in RL.


Published flight tests? Which one? Of Camles prototype or of captured battle worn Albatros? Which tests?

And...in ROF, Camel and Triplane have the same engine (Clerget 9B)..make a test...what is the max RPM of teh same engine in both planes?

hehe

Last edited by Tvrdi; 10/23/12 10:43 PM.

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#3668372 - 10/23/12 10:45 PM Re: Dev Update 18/10/12 [Re: 2Lt_Joch]  
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 615
Originally Posted By: 2Lt_Joch
Regarding FM fixes, I would like to see some tweaked, but the situation is nowhere near as bad as some posters on the ROF board would have you believe, most planes are already within 5-10% of their performance envelope.


Your faith is charming, but I am yet to see a good argument for believing in the reliability of data from the pioneer days of aviation. The quality of construction varied from aircraft to aircraft, and performance could change dramatically after just a few hours of wear. Pinning a single performance figure to any of these aircraft and saying "that is how it was" ignores what makes the era so interesting. I'll take the pilot's word on relative airspeed between scouts over any data table from 1917. Read Winged Victory or No Parachute if you want a real education about what combat was like between the RFC and Albatros scouts.

Now I am off to shoot down my Camel and Dr1. grrr

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