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#3646159 - 09/18/12 11:58 AM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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BillyRiley Offline
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I've been waiting waiting waiting patiently for CLoD to be something remotely near what it was always expected/touted to be...and I'm sad it's never going to be there.

I haven't played it in a while but I regularly view the forums to see updates, though seldom post - emotions are still too high from both sides of the fence.

However, I had always held some hope that I would have a Battle of Britain game. The news that they're dropping support for it and moving on...well, it's not surprising. There's no way they could support it and not move to add ons - not from a financial aspect.

Am I sad? Hell yep. Will I give them more money? No. I'm not interested in revisiting Russia with a flight sim. It was a Battle of Britain game I wanted. And whilst the addon is meant to fix things in CLoD, what it's not going to give me is the BoB game I was expecting/hoped for/led to believe I'd have.

If they EVER release an addon that is truly, genuinely and 100% a Battle of Britain game - that installs over the rubbish I bought on release and gives me an immersive, deep, strategic/tactical Battle of Britain experience - then I'd most likely buy it. But until then, I think I'll spend my money on other gaming companies that provide me with what they say they're giving me.

I wish em luck though. They have a shed load of work to do to get customers back on side and start making a profit.

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#3646193 - 09/18/12 01:13 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'm a flight sim fan but now and after reading most customer feedback posts (in several sites, not only here in SimHQ) and knowing/reading what are the CLoD features I must say that I'm glad that I made the right decision of NOT BUYING CLoD and I don't regret it even for a second!

I second Para_Bellum's words: I just don't care about this sim.

Why am I posting this if I never bought CLoD? Simple: Because like I said I'm a flight sim fan and since I first bought my first flight sim (F-15 Strike Eagle for ZX Spectrum in the 80's) until the first IL2 sim came out I bought and own pretty every sim that came out to the market! This IMO means something: the sims that comes out recently are actually worse than the sims that came out in the late 90's (not in terms of graphics and some physics dynamics of course but much better in terms of gameplay, which IMO is what it matters in the end!). CLoD is just an another modern/recent flight sim that completly sucks in terms of gameplay and probably the worse regarding all modern/recent sims!

#3646328 - 09/18/12 04:49 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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commorange Offline
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As One of our esteemed posters has often reminded us, the group that brought us IL2/FB had a record of improving their game over the years with patches, updates and additions. Oleg and his team did seem to listen to thier fan/customer base and
tried to support their product. I appreciate the way that Oleg gave players new aircraft to fly that were not in the original game. SOme of the aircraft were not exactly what was wanted for example P-47N was wanted and he gave us the "100 octaned P-47D with near P-47M or N model performance." and the Spitfire Mk XIV was wanted and he gave us the "Spitfire MkIX 25lbs boost" with near Spitfire Mk14 performance. IL2 did progressively improve through the years but it was a far far more complete and good game when it was released. To say that it was as buggy and broken as CoD when it was released is simply not factual.
I know it too because I still have my original game CD;s from IL2FB, the Aces expansion Pack, PAcific Fighters, PE2 addon,
1946, i got them all, in fact I think i even have 3 complete copies of the game, I am kind of a typical simmer, it shows if I like the game I will buy all those CD;s. This group that is doing CoD is not the same group and even if they were, you can only rest on your laurels for so long. Could it be that we never again see a new combat flight sim that delivers all the things Cod originally promised? I fear that there is no developer in the world that can provide it. Not because of lack of talent and resources but because the market just isnt there. nope Maybe if we were willing to pay 1000 bucks for a copy , even then it might not be all we would hope for. I'm not sure i want to pay that much for a game, On the other hand people pay more than that for NFL season tickets and Major League baseball season tickets , and Rock COncert tickets and on and on. It might not be a bad deal after all. But can it be done ?

Last edited by commorange; 09/18/12 04:59 PM.

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#3646329 - 09/18/12 04:51 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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"Word of mouth", is the best advertising method and the word of mouth is, you guys have lost it. I think everyone who bought a copy or D/L of COD should get a huge discount on the sequel, just to show good faith on 1C,s part. CoD sucks and you guys, and the rest of the world knows it. How do you guys sleep at night? You want to make money? Create a game that's good enough for the average system and gammer to play.

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#3646330 - 09/18/12 04:55 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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Jedi Master Offline
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Frankly, CloD isn't what I wanted. What I wanted was Storm of War: Battle of Britain, as shown in the video on the Il-2:46 DVD (for those of you have that on DVD). Where's THAT sim? It looks better than CloD ever has, before or after any official or beta patches.

It's like they started on this great next-gen sim engine, got it to an alpha state, then TRASHED it and pulled out the old Il-2 code and cobbled together a BoB sim with hastily thrown in graphics improvements that, Surprise!, didn't work so well either in appearance or performance. Where's all the features Il-2 had working for years? The dynamic campaigns? The robust MP? Coop MP dynamic campaigns?!?

Intel did something similar with the Core processors, scrapping the idea of "continuing" on from the Pentium IV and instead taking the latest-gen Pentium IIIM and working forward.

The big difference here is Intel's idea worked because the P IV design was a dead-end and they realized it soon enough. I don't know WHAT went on behind the scenes for CloD, but it would probably make a pretty good book if anyone was allowed to write and release it. Sucks for the customers of the game, but you'd have some entertained readers.



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#3646337 - 09/18/12 05:02 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'll wait for one more official patch and if CLOD still isn't what I expected it to be I'll be uninstalling it. Good thing I never uninstalled IL-2 1946!


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#3646349 - 09/18/12 05:13 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'm running the latest beta, and I would say the game now works as is. It's just still missing a lot of features I expected. I don't know for certain if they were actually promised or not, so I can't cry "false advertizing" with any sort of confidence. I just know I expected CloD to be "Il-2:46 with better DMs, FMs, and graphics, but limited to BoB in location and plane types" and what we got was ""Il-2:46 with better DMs, FMs, and graphics and most everything else stripped out"!!



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#3646386 - 09/18/12 05:53 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Well i remember you saying you were sure that the graphics rewrite would allow such improvements as better weather, clouds, working Sli, AA, and other added features, and so far we have a worse looking game for no gain.
Were not getting any new features at least until the sequel, which means in the whole life of this sim, 3 years almost nothing has been added, and to get any we have to pay for the next sim.



You understood part of it right. I did say the stability/performance will "allow" improvements to those features. Allowed doesn't mean added now, but added when they are done. Some could be done now and added to the RC patch, others that the lead programmer has to address had to wait because he was busy with the rewrite of the stability/performance graphic engine, some of these features may have to wait until the Sequel to be done.


The beta patch appears to have to have fixed most the stability/performance issues like CTD's and improve fps. I believe are bet was whether or not the CTD's will be fixed in the patch. It appears they have, but we will have to wait for the Steam patch to see if thats true. That said I'm sure you can find someone who will still have CTD's, but its hard to ascertain whether its the sim or a current fault in their computer, if there are only a few people with the CTD issue. Either way I won't quibble over the bet.


edit...I also doubt I said "I was sure" it would happen. The point of the patch was improve performance, and allow them to add the resource headroom to keep adding features. These type of optimization will probably continue for the life of the series, but with a less critical priority.


Yes you would win the bet if they fix the CTD's without having to chop the features out that were causing them.

#3646405 - 09/18/12 06:30 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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FIScott Offline
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It is looking more and more the case that everyone stands to lose out here.

I am of the view that it is players more than developers that make the game, they sell it by attracting more players to it, they influence its direction and by fan made content keep it going beyond where the developers choose to leave it so that they can move on to other things.

CLoD has a small online following and by the sounds of it offline numbers are dropping too. That will be its demise. Beyond that everyone seems to treat those who bankroll this game as detatched from how it is being recieved and percieved by the buying public. I doubt that is the case, and as things are I cannot see how anyone viewing this project through commercial eyes will tolerate the situation for much longer. There are always other, potentially more lucrative projects to back.

#3646528 - 09/18/12 10:17 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Well i remember you saying you were sure that the graphics rewrite would allow such improvements as better weather, clouds, working Sli, AA, and other added features, and so far we have a worse looking game for no gain.
Were not getting any new features at least until the sequel, which means in the whole life of this sim, 3 years almost nothing has been added, and to get any we have to pay for the next sim.



You understood part of it right. I did say the stability/performance will "allow" improvements to those features. Allowed doesn't mean added now, but added when they are done. Some could be done now and added to the RC patch, others that the lead programmer has to address had to wait because he was busy with the rewrite of the stability/performance graphic engine, some of these features may have to wait until the Sequel to be done.


The beta patch appears to have to have fixed most the stability/performance issues like CTD's and improve fps. I believe are bet was whether or not the CTD's will be fixed in the patch. It appears they have, but we will have to wait for the Steam patch to see if thats true. That said I'm sure you can find someone who will still have CTD's, but its hard to ascertain whether its the sim or a current fault in their computer, if there are only a few people with the CTD issue. Either way I won't quibble over the bet.


edit...I also doubt I said "I was sure" it would happen. The point of the patch was improve performance, and allow them to add the resource headroom to keep adding features. These type of optimization will probably continue for the life of the series, but with a less critical priority.


Yes you would win the bet if they fix the CTD's without having to chop the features out that were causing them.


I'm fairly sure your bet didn't include any caveats. smile That said we will have to see how the RC patch, looks, feels, and plays. I don't really care how they made the sim more stable with better frame rates, but it was critical that they accomplished it. If the code optimizations alone weren't able to give the headroom they needed then I have no problem with them downgrading a few visual aspects. Like I've said many times. "Sometimes you have to take a step backward to move forward again." The visual effects can be brought back later, and it could have saved the development to live another day. It appears they may have been successful enough that they have secured enough investor confidence to support the sim for another year or two until the Sequels release.

Regarding other posters comments. Luthier did apologies for the paid beta release. As far as COD never simulating a more realistic Battle of Britain. That's very possible, but its still also possible the game engine could be fixed, the FMB fine tuned, to allow a more realistic Battle of Britain campaign built by a community that may be more knowledgeable on the events of the Battle. That said there is no way the development teams campaign builders could have built a decent BOB campaign given the state of the sim at the time, even with a strong knowledge of the battle.

Last edited by Chivas; 09/18/12 10:19 PM.

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#3646550 - 09/18/12 10:54 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: FIScott]  
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Chivas Offline
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Originally Posted By: FIScott
It is looking more and more the case that everyone stands to lose out here.

I am of the view that it is players more than developers that make the game, they sell it by attracting more players to it, they influence its direction and by fan made content keep it going beyond where the developers choose to leave it so that they can move on to other things.

CLoD has a small online following and by the sounds of it offline numbers are dropping too. That will be its demise. Beyond that everyone seems to treat those who bankroll this game as detatched from how it is being recieved and percieved by the buying public. I doubt that is the case, and as things are I cannot see how anyone viewing this project through commercial eyes will tolerate the situation for much longer. There are always other, potentially more lucrative projects to back.


I agree, and surprised the investors are still on board. That said Luthier must have convinced the investors that he has now made the sim stable enough for the greater majority of the customer base to now play the sim without crashing, and the work on the game engine has made it possible for them to much improve the gameplay issues.

I'm certain "like you say" there are far more lucrative project to invest in, but the only way the investors can possibly see a return is a successful Sequel, and it may even require more than one Sequel to atleast see a profit. The Stability milestone may have been reached, the Gameplay milestone has to be the developments next priority, and is critical to the Sequels success. There is no way they'll survive if that fails. A relatively successful RC patch coupled with improvements provided by a successful Sequel should see the online and offline community start to build.


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#3646559 - 09/18/12 11:12 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs


This forum is for talking about COD, so the people here talk about it, what did you expect to see here?



Gee i dont know mate, in light of the fact that the vast majority of the patrons of the il2 forums arent pimply faced Call of Duty Fanboiz...perhaps some maturity?...too much?

or perhaps some conversations about the sim, or aviation, that arent doomed to 'us versus them' right from the start...a bridge too far?

The original il2 was patched, developed, and modded over many years into a great product...i suspect this will be the same...unless everyone boycotts the sequel out of "principles", the company make zip, and fold up like so many wwii sim makers in the past.....the il2 series seems to have attracted so very many argumentative patrons with lofty standards over the years...they dont like this, this Fm is porked, that skin isnt correct...like they consider themselves to be the 'keepers of the realm' of all things WWII aviation....to an outside naked eye...they just paint themselves as petulant, snotty children...

anyway iwill shut up now to let all the people who will want to flame me for my flagrant herecy towards their educated opinion on this 'heinous crime' that was the perceived theft of their 60 or 70 bux...and go back to flying it......here we go...do your worst, the very future of human existance may depend on ths topic...lol ( no i did not mean you personally)


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#3646708 - 09/19/12 06:39 AM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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FIScott Offline
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I know that this game has created countless amateur Inspector Clouseau's who do a lot of 'suspecting' mainly because they are on boards like this and 1C instead of playing the game (and I have done my fair share of it !)

No point going into the often repeated reasons why that is the case.

#3646721 - 09/19/12 07:56 AM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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Sluggish Controls Offline
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Haven't touched CloD in months and although I purchased it for the BoB plane set, I will also purchase the sequel & cross fingers.
Get some epic flying in a Rata to forget about the BoB flop.

There should be a Rata, right?

Cheers,
Slug


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#3646908 - 09/19/12 04:25 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: Tonester]  
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Force10 Offline
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Originally Posted By: TheTonester



Gee i dont know mate, in light of the fact that the vast majority of the patrons of the il2 forums arent pimply faced Call of Duty Fanboiz...perhaps some maturity?...too much?

or perhaps some conversations about the sim, or aviation, that arent doomed to 'us versus them' right from the start...a bridge too far?


O.K. I see the problem now. You are just simply lost. This is the COD "Extended" forum that is kind of hidden and is set aside for critical opinions of the sim and it's development. You are looking for the "main" forum that is at the top level when you entered, plenty of normal sim -speak going on there. This is something that is obvious to 99% of the SimHQ crowd, but some fall through the cracks apparently.

Originally Posted By: TheTonester

'heinous crime' that was the perceived theft of their 60 or 70 bux...


It's hard to take the high ground when someone makes the daft "60 or 70 bucks" statement, so here we go:

A little lesson in the hardcore IL2 crowd:

When Storm of War(COD) is announced, the IL-2 crowd is excited and follows Oleg's every word closely and give input daily on the forums to be part of what certainly should be the best WW2 sim ever. Some members in the UK volunteer their own time and take pictures of WW2 style houses and locales to help the modelers get it right.

A release date is set for Nov. 2006 and gamers are warned the game is going to be a monster and require top notch hardware. IL-2 hardcore folks spend anywhere from $600-$800 upgrading their computers for this masterpiece!

Release date is missed and another date is 2 years later. Now the hardware they purchased 2 years ago is obsolete, time to upgrade again! Another $600.

Release date is missed and 2011 is the new target. Guess what? The hardware they purchased 3 years ago is now obsolete, time to upgrade again!

Over the 6 years...members contribute countless time on the forums, are shown awesome things like bail-out animations, dynamic clouds and weather, SU-26 stunt plane, and many other things that don't make it into the sim.

For most, all the upgrades done would be put to use for other games/genres. There are some that only live and breathe WW2 flight sims. I play many other type games so I'm not as affected as others. I don't however, downplay the anger that must be felt by those loyal fans that contributed there time and money in anticipation for this sim for the last 7 years.

Maybe you can just "Tone it down a notch" Tonester, and not assume everyone just happened upon this game on the shelf at Wal-mart and $60 is the only thing lost.


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#3646931 - 09/19/12 05:00 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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Chivas Offline
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I'm not so sure that this forum is exclusively for negative comments, although someone new here couldn't help but think so. Its just a forum where opposing views go to die. I certainly bought a number of systems for COD and IL-2 over the last ten years, but I certainly don't blame the developer for my actions. I've very much enjoyed the use of these systems with IL-2 while waiting for COD, Even COD played very well performance wise, before any patches, so maybe thats why I feel the code isn't that bad, and it just required optimization and gameplay feature fixes. I was surprised they had to do a complete Graphic Engine code rewrite to make the sim stable on average and unoptimized systems. That said they would also need the performance headroom to add or fix features that are resource hungry.


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#3646933 - 09/19/12 05:09 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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I'd like to get real stats on people who actually upgraded for a game that wasn't yet released.

It's your fault upgrading for a game that actually never had a release date, just estimate - and upgrading before it's released.

#3646937 - 09/19/12 05:26 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: NattyIced]  
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Originally Posted By: NattyIced

It's your fault upgrading for a game that actually never had a release date, just estimate - and upgrading before it's released.


No official release date huh?

Quote:
"Ubisoft today announced that Storm of War: Battle of Britain will be released in November 2006 for the PC. The game is developed by Maddox, known for the IL-2 Sturmovik and Pacific Fighters games, and features new 3D engine and damage model technology. You can check the first screens now in our gallery."


There was also another Official release date announced by Ubi for 2008 or 2009 as well. Usually your safe when there is an official release date for buying hardware because games may be delayed 1 to 4 months so your hardware upgrade is still valid. 5 years delayed is extreme and doesn't happen often. A simple google search would have showed you this Natty.

Last edited by Force10; 09/19/12 05:26 PM.

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#3646944 - 09/19/12 05:39 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: HeinKill]  
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A release date - a date that can be set.

A month and date that they are shooting for is not a release date.

This is not a release date either: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=9836


And still, why would you ever buy hardware without testing it out on current hardware? Even if they said it's going to require something extraordinary, you don't know what that is.

I have never purchased a system without the game first being out and tested on my system.

Last edited by NattyIced; 09/19/12 05:40 PM.
#3646949 - 09/19/12 05:50 PM Re: Sad news from Luthier 14 Sept 2012 [Re: NattyIced]  
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Originally Posted By: NattyIced
A release date - a date that can be set.

A month and date that they are shooting for is not a release date.

This is not a release date either: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=9836


And still, why would you ever buy hardware without testing it out on current hardware? Even if they said it's going to require something extraordinary, you don't know what that is.

I have never purchased a system without the game first being out and tested on my system.


Whatever...you stated "It's your fault upgrading for a game that actually never had a release date". I showed you there was an official release date, and you still want to debate that fact. They also release minimum and recommended requirements....we all know that flight sims are demanding and the recommended is really the minimum. Some people want to be ready on release and actually take the devs at their word for dates. People upgraded for this game....period.


Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
Windows 7 64 bit Home edition
Intel I5 4670K @ 4.4 ghz
16 gig 1866mhz Corsair Vengence Pro memory
EVGA GTX 970 Superclocked 4gb Video Card
Intel 510 series 120gb SSD (boot drive)
Samsung 840 1TB SSD
Onboard Realtek sound
______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



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