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#3658218 - 10/07/12 04:37 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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Raptor9 Offline
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If you guys go back and read some of the earlier threads by Flex and AD, you'll see that not only are they wanting to implement a force-on-force conventional war scenario with Iran invading Afghanistan, but you'll also see some clarification on what the COIN campaign involves. Flex has posted numerous times about the complexity he is trying to implement into that style of gameplay.

According to Flex's earlier posts, and I am paraphrasing (sorry Flex if I'm wrong or out of line), it's not going to be hop in the Apache, go to this waypoint, and blow up everything and everyone in sight. There will need to be recon and forethought conducted and engagements must be done within the ROE. Sometimes you may have to observe the individuals for a time period to determine if they are indeed hostiles. What's more, a faction-based system is involved, with various groups, both official and/or international as well as unofficial local or criminal groups. The actions you take, or don't take, may have multiple and opposing reactions among the various groups.

Still sound like a turkey shoot? And I agree with Redpiano's statement above. A simulation doesn't have to be excessively gory, but it should be honest and realistic.

All those pacifist tree-huggers that make videos showing Apaches or any other coalition troops shooting insurgents (ahem "peaceful citizens of their country") normally only show the few seconds of the killshot, they don't show the previous hour of raw footage in which the "honest shoemaker" is digging an IED into a road or placing an explosive in the trunk of his car. I think flight simulations are generally aimed at intelligent individuals, that if they're smart enough to read a manual and be able to start up a complex aircraft, they have the maturity and judgement to understand context (simulated combat or not)... Sorry, rant complete. soapbox


Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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#3658225 - 10/07/12 04:55 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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redpiano Offline
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Sounds good, I do hope it turns out so.

I'm a little curious how all this is going to come to fruition though. I mean now he's only one guy working on this project no? Is all this stuff going to make it into the final product?

Going back now and looking at older blogs which I hadn't done before I see there's apparently a lot more work done than he's really put out there in videos and such, but with the fact that he wants a new 3d engine for the game and this action based side game I have to wonder how much work he has ahead of him and if it's just going to end up throwing CH into development limbo where great games go to die.

#3658509 - 10/08/12 03:27 AM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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jazjar Offline
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Yes as Raptor said, if you don't like watching people die, then don't watch the Apache guncam vids. That is what it is supposed to do people. It is a weapon of absolute terror, designed to rain hell and death on anything not on its' side.

#3658795 - 10/08/12 04:04 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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AD Offline
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South East Asia
Combat-Helo is dead. Long live Combat-Helo.

Cheers


Judge, jury and executioner of Tricubic's art department.

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#3658820 - 10/08/12 04:25 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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Raptor9 Offline
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Central US
Oh no, AD...I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic. bs_sign


Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
#3658898 - 10/08/12 06:13 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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toonces Offline
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Awesome post.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#3658923 - 10/08/12 07:09 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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SmokeyTheLung Offline
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There's a new combat helo in town : P

#3659710 - 10/09/12 06:42 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: AD]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
Originally Posted By: AD
Combat-Helo is dead. Long live Combat-Helo.

Cheers


Uh...I have absolutely no idea what that's supposed to mean.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3659742 - 10/09/12 07:20 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: ricnunes]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
Please don't get me wrong but it really puzzles me when you say that EECH campaign while LB2 campaign is semi-dynamic! To me it seems clear that LB2 campaign is definitly dynamic (and not semi-dynamic), since for example:
-> The more enemy ground units (tanks for example) that you destroy the more attrition you will inflict in that particular or in those enemy formations even if you fail the mission's main objective (just like EECH for example) - A thing that doesn't happen in a semi-dynamic campaign!
-> When one friendly or enemy army formation (battalion for example) decides to launch an offensive that's not due to mission specification but this happens when that army formation is ready for it - The army formation is reinforced and with a high level of supplies.
-> Yes, it's true that sometimes you get scripted missions (the rescue POWs mission for example) but for the rest of missions aren't dependent of any branch tree (like happens in a semi-dynamic campaign) but instead they spawn randomly accordingly to factors such as your actions on previous missions, the past and present actions of other units (friendly and enemy) and of course a random factor (anyway, just like happens in EECH).

The only diferent in how the campaigns work in LB2 and EECH is the following:
-> In LB2 one mission equals one day. While the EECH campaign happens in real time. So the diference is that LB2 campaign is a "turn based" dynamic campaign while the EECH is "real time".


I do agree that just because a campaign is dynamic it doesn't mean that it will be good, but an "average" dynamic campaign is IMO much better than a "very good" static campaign (and even semi-dynamic) even if it's only due to the fact that a dynamic campaign which is always random gives the player a much higher replayability value to the player (everytime you play a dynamic campaign it's not always the same due to it random mission generating nature).
Also a semi-dynamic campaign is not random in nature since you always know that if you win a mission you get the "X mission" as the following mission while if you fail that same mission you get the "Y mission" instead so this will definitly limit a semi-dynamic campaign replayability value!


Well it's obvious we have totally different definitions of what semi-dynamic is. Your definition is what I call "static branching". F4 was fully dynamic because you never had a predefined mission, and LB2 was a perfect example of semi-dynamic. The scripted missions will likely happen, you just don't know when exactly. The nonscripted missions are indeed dynamic, but the scripted ones form "chapter breaks" in the overall experience. They also have a semi-dynamic nature themselves, as certain aspects of those missions will always be the same while others will change each time you hit it.

FYI I have the LB2 strategy guide still from 1997, and it states there are 15 scripted missions for the campaign. Conditions are generally "75% chance if armor in sectors 1 and 2 advances to PL Pear" or along those lines. Some are 90%, some are 75%, but 2 of the first 3 are only 20%, so you may not ever see them.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3659765 - 10/09/12 07:43 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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toonces Offline
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This sim is as dead as Fighter Ops.


"A week or even a month for someone basically saying "shucks, this is pants" maybe. But their banhammer only has the forever setting. Gotta set phasers to stun for the localization of female undergarments, not kill yo." - Frederf
#3659769 - 10/09/12 07:46 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: toonces]  
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komemiute Offline
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Originally Posted By: toonces
This sim is as dead as Fighter Ops.


It is mostly not dead at all.
Patience young(?) Padawan.


Click to reveal..
"Himmiherrgottksakramentzefixhallelujah!"
Para_Bellum

"It takes forever +/- 2 weeks for the A-10 to get anywhere significant..."
Ice

"Ha! If it gets him on the deck its a start!"
MigBuster

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#3659811 - 10/09/12 08:19 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: AD]  
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Offline
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 Offline
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Originally Posted By: AD
Combat-Helo is dead.

Cheers

+1
one year too late written.

#3660589 - 10/10/12 10:07 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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jazjar Offline
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Wow, no offence but if you want to be negative, go elsewhere and be a downer.

#3660804 - 10/11/12 08:09 AM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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AndyB Offline
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AndyB  Offline
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Ayrshire, Scotland
I'm with Jazjar on this one.

These guys took on a project with minimum pay and a lot of stress. They've come a long way since the initial concept was discussed. They have invited sim members input and on some occasions included our suggestions.

They don't want to dump "just another game" on the market, they want it as close to perfect as they can.

The easy way would have been to release something not completed and then released updates (Microsoft ?), but they didn't. I for one respect them for doing that.

Finally, I have never been in that situation so am not willing to criticise something I have no experience of.

I for one, will buy this when release. Even if it's just as a vote for independant developers.

Rant over .....

Cheers,

Andy


Andy's simpit: http://www.simpit.me.uk
#3661082 - 10/11/12 05:09 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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redpiano Offline
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Flex just tweeted about the Kickstarter for UK, I bet this means he'll put Combat helo up. I REALLY hope he puts it up at a reasonable goal or it just won't go anywhere like all sims that have been put on kickstarter, but finally a way to put money into CH.

#3661156 - 10/11/12 06:12 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
The problem really is when you're a 1-man developer, and you've got another paying job...what can you do? If he dumps the job in favor of CH development, he needs enough to live on as well as pay for the game. If he keeps the job, he'll need far less but it will naturally take a lot longer. I do hope this works out for him, though. With the apparent vanishing act of the Apache from the DCS roadmap (it was announced before Black Shark IIRC but by the time FC2 came out it was announced A-10C would be next and the Apache permanently vanished from their vocabulary) CH is going to be literally the only game in town, and will likely sell even better.

It's good that KS is finally over the pond, though. There are a lot of good UK devs that didn't want to try and "work around" the US-only issue.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3661172 - 10/11/12 06:25 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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redpiano Offline
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I just imagine that getting kickstarter money would let him pay other programmers and such to help him work on the game. Isn't he the only one working on it now because funding fell through?

#3661189 - 10/11/12 06:47 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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ricnunes Offline
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Portugal
Originally Posted By: Jedi Master


Well it's obvious we have totally different definitions of what semi-dynamic is. Your definition is what I call "static branching". F4 was fully dynamic because you never had a predefined mission, and LB2 was a perfect example of semi-dynamic. The scripted missions will likely happen, you just don't know when exactly. The nonscripted missions are indeed dynamic, but the scripted ones form "chapter breaks" in the overall experience. They also have a semi-dynamic nature themselves, as certain aspects of those missions will always be the same while others will change each time you hit it.

FYI I have the LB2 strategy guide still from 1997, and it states there are 15 scripted missions for the campaign. Conditions are generally "75% chance if armor in sectors 1 and 2 advances to PL Pear" or along those lines. Some are 90%, some are 75%, but 2 of the first 3 are only 20%, so you may not ever see them.



The Jedi Master



Don't get me wrong but it seems to me your definition of or what you call dynamic is in fact "real time" instead. It's possible to have a dynamic campaign that's not "real time", like for example a "turn base" dynamic campaign which is basically what LB2 campaign is -> You play a mission, the mission ends, the results are computed and the next mission is generated accordingly with what were the results of the previous mission (if a certain ground unit was sucessfull on it's advance, how many unit were destroyed and impact that it will have on the reserves, etc...)
Regading the "15 scripted missions for the campaign" in LB2 is a situation that I'm certain it also happens with Falcon4 which is what I call a "mission pool" from where missions can be picked up randomly -> the diference is that I'm sure Falcon4 "mission pool" is much more wider than LB2's. A similar thing also happens with Strike Fighters 2. Do you also consider Strike Fighters 2 campaigns to be semi-dynamic instead of dynamic?

Anyway and resuming with LB2 campaign you get:
-> If a ground unit (friendly or enemy) sucessfully advances that same territory will be occupied by that ground unit on the next mission.
-> If you kill a big number of ground units of a certain enemy army formation (battalion?) that army formation will lose a considerable number of units on the field (which refects on the next mission) and deplete that same formation's reserves faster.
-> The same thing happens regarding air units (helicopters)
-> The missions are completly random (except for a few special ones such as the POW rescue mission) and everytime you start a campaign the missions that spawn are diferent even if all missions end sucessfully (not a feature of a semi-dynamic campaign).
-> If the insert recon special forces missions ends sucessfully you'll get a much better intel on enemy forces.

Well, if this isn't being dynamic I sincerely don't know what more it (the LB2 campaign) needs to be "trully dynamic" (in your eyes of course)??

#3661555 - 10/12/12 08:44 AM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: ricnunes]  
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arneh Offline
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes
if this isn't being dynamic I sincerely don't know what more it (the LB2 campaign) needs to be "trully dynamic" (in your eyes of course)??


The campaign in Longbow 2 certainly worked well and was convincing, but it was actually fairly simple compared to other dynamic campaigns. Here is a quote from an article with an interview with the developer of the campaign for the canceled Jane's A-10, which was supposed to use the same campaign:

While the team was working on the missions, the issue of the campaign structure came up. Because they were supposed to be based on the Longbow 2 code, the campaigns would be structured in the same way. This meant that they would have the "apparently dynamic" structure that Andy Hollis referred to repeatedly in the newsgroups as "smoke and mirrors." Pavloff explains: "The campaigns in Longbow 2, while seeming dynamic to the user, in fact, really weren't. The Longbow 2 campaign editor basically involved the designers creating multiple locations for the enemy troops on each phase line, and creating multiple paths and targets, and letting a random number generator create the missions.

#3661836 - 10/12/12 06:39 PM Re: Combat-Helo development starts again at the end of September! [Re: CTR69]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

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Space Coast, USA
SF2 campaigns are fully dynamic in that they're not scripted at all, but there are a limited number of mission types and each are fairly scripted in how they are done (ie for airfield attack, you take off, you fly a few waypoints to target area, at target area you have standard airfield ADA which consists of AAA and SAMs depending on era/theater, and fight enemy CAP at that location...all airfield attacks are like that...you never get "bounced" only halfway there by a roving patrol, you never find the target uncovered by bandits).

So yes, SF's are fully dynamic they're just very limited. Il-2's stock dynamic campaigns were the same way.

The 15 scripted missions in LB2 are VERY scripted however, such as the POW mission. There are elements far more complex than anything the dynamic campaigns alone ever do.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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