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#3655567 - 10/03/12 04:07 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Alien_MasterMynd]  
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Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
I think it could be done - try in SAMSIM (except IFF) - point 5N62 at target and you will see the same picture, upper display will indicate received signal from 5N62.


Yes, initially I tought that this could be a check after target is found (before any kind of AS), but see what I found later (written of the bottom of this post!!!):
http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3638330/Re_Tu_154M_of_Syberia_what_rea.html#Post3638330

Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Either they could see both targets in speed scope (GLADKIJ and AS-3 not yet active) or VR-3 just slipped away of the beam and they selected wrong target for AS-3 (Tu instead of VR), then switch do POLOVIN, measured range (they could be under stress so they did not watch the range indicator - ust eyes locked on scope when turning the wheel).
Pressed launch buttons and ....


I think they aquired Tu-154M from the very begining and didn't check the distance at all... If they saw two targets, they should be worried a bit... By the way, there was info about power cut in K vans, but it was before shooting, will check it again!

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3655600 - 10/03/12 04:59 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Alien_MasterMynd
Originally Posted By: piston79

So it seems that they acquired Tu-154M at the very begining, thus make senseless that real target was destroyed with S-300PS at 12.42.20 (2 min. 40 sec. before crash), as at 12.42.20 S-200 was tracking another target (i.e Tu-154M). Nevertheless:


Yes, it is in perfect match with previous Hpasp's finding - in the moment of IFF check, photo take and so (quite a time) 5N62 was not locked on the target. So after it they had to reacquire it and they locked the Tu-154. It is also a must in case it was shot down - the missile HAD TO START with long distance flight program else it would not get so far.


I think the picture is a total fake, done after the exercise...
Still don't know how it happens with a launch, without using distance determination. Also there is some technical stuff about radiofuse and trajectry...


Just keep in mind, that the 5E50 radio proxy fuse is Semi Active.
Without the illumination of the RPC it simply not detonate...

Last edited by Hpasp; 10/03/12 04:59 PM.

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#3655632 - 10/03/12 05:35 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep in mind, that the 5E50 radio proxy fuse is Semi Active.
Without the illumination of the RPC it simply not detonate...


Pity, but the technical analize of trajectory and radiofuse is a scanned document on ukrainian... frown

Shortly:

GSN lock will break at ~1300 meters from the Tu-154m due to moving of the center of the energy of the returned signal, which results in problems in homing of the missile

Quote:
carrying out further calculations stated: "When the angular size of the field wandering ECV exceeds the value of 0.7 beamwidth antenna GSN (ie 4.2 deg, corresponding to 0.073 rad.) Guided missiles and will stop signals" SriV AS GSN "and" BLYZHNEE VZVEDENYE " to radiofuse .." From the above magnitude 4.2 degrees appears that the beamwidth antenna GSN experts determined rate of 6 . At the same time, based on the case file beamwidth antenna GSN defined in 5 -10 .


After that the radiofuse will detonate at ~780 meters from the Tu-154M, which results at max 3 warhead pieces, which could hit the aircraft (kill possibility 0.007).

They stated also that if 5V28 doesn't detonated, it will pass near Tu-154M not closer than ~340 meters... screwy

#3655659 - 10/03/12 06:15 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Just keep in mind, that the 5E50 radio proxy fuse is Semi Active.
Without the illumination of the RPC it simply not detonate...


Pity, but the technical analize of trajectory and radiofuse is a scanned document on ukrainian... frown

Shortly:

GSN lock will break at ~1300 meters from the Tu-154m due to moving of the center of the energy of the returned signal, which results in problems in homing of the missile

Quote:
carrying out further calculations stated: "When the angular size of the field wandering ECV exceeds the value of 0.7 beamwidth antenna GSN (ie 4.2 deg, corresponding to 0.073 rad.) Guided missiles and will stop signals" SriV AS GSN "and" BLYZHNEE VZVEDENYE " to radiofuse .." From the above magnitude 4.2 degrees appears that the beamwidth antenna GSN experts determined rate of 6 . At the same time, based on the case file beamwidth antenna GSN defined in 5 -10 .




After that the radiofuse will detonate at ~780 meters from the Tu-154M, which results at max 3 warhead pieces, which could hit the aircraft (kill possibility 0.007).

They stated also that if 5V28 doesn't detonated, it will pass near Tu-154M not closer than ~340 meters... screwy


Hmmm...
... I could hardly correlate the real way of working of the 5E50 radio proxy fuse to this translation.

The 5B73A safety mechanism has 5 safety levels:
1st is released during launch by the g forces
2nd is released when the 5D67 ZRD (liquid fuel sustainer) started, by a pressure sensor in the chamber
3rd is released when the missile speed is accumulated, by a Pitot pressure sensor
4th is released when the GSN is locked on the target
5th is released when the GSN looses the target by exceeding its 3,5degree/sec target tracking capability

So the 5th is only released when the target is so close by, that the GSN is unable to track it.

After this happened, the GSN switches off, and the 5E50 activated waiting to receive the reflected signal of the RPC, from the target.

The V-880E has 850m/s speed at 220km...
... now you can calculate that what is the arming range of the missile.
cowboy

Last edited by Hpasp; 10/03/12 06:22 PM.

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#3655666 - 10/03/12 06:24 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
[Hmmm...
... I could hardly correlate the real way of working of the 5E50 radio proxy fuse to this translation.


Sorry, that's all I can do about it.... If someone wishes to help, I'll send him the file...(had it on ukrainian and russian) sigh

Last edited by piston79; 10/03/12 06:59 PM.
#3659236 - 10/09/12 06:15 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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As the Piston79 asked me to translate a fragment of court documents and publish it here, I'm fulfilling his request. Since this forum have problems with displaying some symbols, I had to upload it to MediaFire in .doc format. Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7elflwj4n63iuba

#3659249 - 10/09/12 07:18 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
As the Piston79 asked me to translate a fragment of court documents and publish it here, I'm fulfilling his request. Since this forum have problems with displaying some symbols, I had to upload it to MediaFire in .doc format. Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7elflwj4n63iuba


Im not an expert of this topic, so this is only an amateur opinion, but...

Answer of Question3 is seems to me a complete #%&*$#.
The GSN BV mode of operation (close target mode) is not initiated by wondering energy center, but the target is coming to the side of the missile (from the front) and the GSN looses its track.

1300m seems to me too long.

Answer of Question4 is...
0.65 and 3.5deg/sec
...why they calculate with different numbers?

Question 6...
... rotating homing head???
biggrin


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3659287 - 10/09/12 09:22 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
As the Piston79 asked me to translate a fragment of court documents and publish it here, I'm fulfilling his request. Since this forum have problems with displaying some symbols, I had to upload it to MediaFire in .doc format. Here it is:

http://www.mediafire.com/view/?7elflwj4n63iuba



Thanks for your support and priceless help dear Lonewolf!


#3659292 - 10/09/12 09:42 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


Im not an expert of this topic, so this is only an amateur opinion, but...

Answer of Question3 is seems to me a complete #%&*$#.
The GSN BV mode of operation (close target mode) is not initiated by wondering energy center, but the target is coming to the side of the missile (from the front) and the GSN looses its track.

1300m seems to me too long.

Yeah, the whole "energy center of reflection" stuff looks rather lame to me too...

Quote:

Question 6...
... rotating homing head???
biggrin

My mistake, homing head antenna, of course...

Last edited by Lonewolf357; 10/09/12 09:42 AM.
#3659293 - 10/09/12 09:44 AM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Im not an expert of this topic, so this is only an amateur opinion, but...


Which topic - S-200V?

Quote:
Answer of Question3 is seems to me a complete #%&*$#.
The GSN BV mode of operation (close target mode) is not initiated by wondering energy center, but the target is coming to the side of the missile (from the front) and the GSN looses its track.
1300m seems to me too long.


I think the idea is to established the size of the reflection area, and by that establishing when the GSN will lost AS (when 0.7 of its diagram is full of target's return signal) thus when fifth lock of radiofuse is unlocked... As per this "energetic center" movement... this issue is noted from russians when using MHI against low level targets when mirror reflection caused moving of the tARGET return energetic center and this caused response in missile driving mechanizm (trajectory deviations) and missile missed the target...

Quote:
Answer of Question4 is...
0.65 and 3.5deg/sec
...why they calculate with different numbers?


???

Quote:
Question 6...
... rotating homing head???
biggrin


I think they wrote: rotation of homing head axis..

#3659438 - 10/09/12 01:29 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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I think that the missile will probably pass closer than their predicted range before losing GSN lock, as there will be a lead angle being maintained for a collision course. The only significant factor for a non-manoeuvring target is the velocity decay of the missile, requiring gradually increasing lead to maintain a collision intercept. (Plus of course errors arising from sloppy guidance &/or aero performance in following the track).

This is highly unlikely to exceed 3.5 dps for most cases. IMO.

When the missile loses guidance it should be leading the target (not pointed directly at it), and there should be a near-miss or hit from a clean track. (e.g. like an unguided AAA shell fired at the correct intercept point).

#3662658 - 10/14/12 12:48 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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According to my calculation, the missile passed at a maximum of 52m miss distance at that range, otherwise the radio proxy fuse simply would not arm.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
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https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3662672 - 10/14/12 01:35 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
According to my calculation, the missile passed at a maximum of 52m miss distance at that range, otherwise the radio proxy fuse simply would not arm.


Probably not going to see your method of calculatiion, right?

#3662685 - 10/14/12 02:05 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
According to my calculation, the missile passed at a maximum of 52m miss distance at that range, otherwise the radio proxy fuse simply would not arm.


Probably not going to see your method of calculatiion, right?


The missile is flying approx 850m/s at that distance, and we know that the GSN tracking of 3.5degree is when the radio proxy fuse is armed...
850m/s * tan 3.5 degree/sec = ~52m
... this is quite reasonable.


If we check the possible maximum, the missile reaches 1850m/s maximum speed, there the arming distance would be...
1850m/s * tan 3.5 degree/sec = ~113m
... also reasonable.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
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#3663206 - 10/15/12 02:26 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Hi,

this is the best .gpx I managed to create so far...:
Click to reveal..
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" standalone="no" ?>
<gpx xmlns="http://www.topografix.com/GPX/1/1">

<trk><name>Tu-154M</name><trkseg>
<trkpt lat="42.454040" lon="36.965588">
<ele>11100</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:36:11Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="42.89319493472761" lon="37.5068031754402">
<ele>11110</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:41:10Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="43.272086" lon="37.847236">
<ele>11110</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:45:00Z</time>
</trkpt>
</trkseg></trk>

<trk><name>AN-24</name><trkseg>
<trkpt lat="43.481343" lon="35.977621">
<ele>6300</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:32:11Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="43.333640" lon="36.235928">
<ele>6300</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:35:10Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="43.176484" lon="37.045326">
<ele>6300</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:44:05Z</time>
</trkpt>
</trkseg></trk>

<trk><name>A-310</name><trkseg>
<trkpt lat="43.751590" lon=" 36.353298">
<ele>10000</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:32:10Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat=" 43.984748" lon="35.136473">
<ele>10000</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:39:40Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.099610" lon="34.284966">
<ele>10000</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:44:50Z</time>
</trkpt>
</trkseg></trk>

<trk><name>BP-3"Reis"</name><trkseg>
<trkpt lat="45.062481" lon="35.988308">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:29:59Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.388637" lon="36.447689">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:35:22Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.354104" lon="36.447140">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:35:37Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.329657" lon="36.420504">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:35:52Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.312979" lon="36.327296">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:36:24Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.320176" lon="36.291348">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:36:36Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.358830" lon="36.262724">
<ele>1500</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:36:55Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.524775" lon="36.239446">
<ele>1800</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:38:07Z</time>
</trkpt>
<trkpt lat="44.988076" lon="36.174101">
<ele>1800</ele>
<time>2012-01-01T12:41:28Z</time>
</trkpt>
</trkseg></trk>

</gpx>


I choosed a 930 km/h speed for the Tu-143 Reis (BR-3) and tried to recreated it during most of it's track... Time of launching is unknown, time of destruction ~12:42.00... So I tried to find this time approximately:

Click to reveal..
S (km) V (km/h) V (km/min) T(min) TIME(min,sec) Time of destruction Time of launch
175,91 950 15,83 11,11 00:11:07 12:42:00 12:30:53
175,91 940 15,67 11,23 00:11:14 12:42:00 12:30:46
175,91 930 15,50 11,35 00:11:21 12:42:00 12:30:39
175,91 920 15,33 11,47 00:11:28 12:42:00 12:30:32
175,91 910 15,17 11,60 00:11:36 12:42:00 12:30:24
175,91 1000 16,67 10,55 00:10:33 12:42:00 12:31:27


It is between 12:30 - 12:31 local time for the speed interval of 910 to 1000 km/h average speed. The problem is that speed change durinng turning is not known (that's why the BR-3 is in it's point of destruction at 12:41:28 (according my .gpx), not at ~12.42 as it was according the investigation. Also at 12.36 when the target was iluminated from RPN, according my .gpx the target is at ~0 tangental speed (in the middle of it's back turn curve), but according investigation at 12.36 the target was ot it's way back to the firing range at 72 km from the S-200 site...

p.s. Looking at this picture makes me to think I did A HUGE MISTAKE of determination of coordinates of all track, according the PloatingBoard... It seems that target goes for S-200V site with zero parameter and it's launch site is closer to east shore of Feodosia bay. I wish I had a map of Chauda firing range... frown


Last edited by piston79; 10/16/12 07:51 AM. Reason: add info
#3663786 - 10/16/12 01:46 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Looking at that picture:


If target was at 12:36 at 72 km from VEGA site, 12:41:20(that is the time in court documents) at 38 km range and at >12:42 at 11 km, the speed is far less than it's maximum of ~950 km/h..

(72-38)/5.3*60= 385 km/h
(72-11)/6*60= 609 km/h
(38-11)/40*3600 = 2430 km/h...
If took time of lauch at 12:41:50:
(72-38)/5.83*60= 349 km/h
screwy

Probably the BR-3 has it's descelerate program (as it finaly land on it's launch site under canopy), but such strange speed changes are just senseless, also different at this picture, the time of launch is before BR-3 reaches 38 km range, which if it is right, could give the missile + 30 km (pobably manipulated data again).

Last edited by piston79; 10/16/12 01:52 PM.
#3701666 - 12/18/12 09:34 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Here some info for the Tu-143... :

http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10610.html

RCS stated is 0.25 -0.35 m2...(!)


Last edited by piston79; 01/12/13 04:01 PM.
#3704710 - 12/22/12 10:09 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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About Tu-154M RCS:

Here some estimation about a similar aircraft - Boeing-727-100:




Note that both frames (Tu-154 and Boeing-727 had 3 engines and one of those is in the body, as the engine gets air from an inlet ahead of the vertical fin through an S-shaped duct (which should "cover" the radar return from the engine rotor....

#3717118 - 01/13/13 05:06 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Here some info for the Tu-143... :
http://www.valka.cz/clanek_10610.html
RCS stated is 0.25 -0.35 m2...(!)


Here some info on english:

Tu-143 "Reis"

Quote:
Landing of the Tu-143 is a multi-step procedure. After aircraft enters landing zone, the engine is cut off. Steep climb and brake parachute slow it down, and after about 11sec brake parachute is jettissoned and replaced with landing one. When descent is vertical, landing parachute is automatically re-attached from the extreme tail to the center of the fuselage, and Tu-143 turns into horizontal position. At the same time, sensor poles and landing gear are erected. When sensor poles touch the hard surface, solid landing rockets slow the descent speed from 6m/sec to 2m/sec. Landing parachute is jettissoned once the landing gear is loaded to avoid dragging the aircraft by the wind.


Last edited by piston79; 02/13/13 09:01 PM.
#3733370 - 02/10/13 12:12 PM Re: Tu-154M of "Syberia" - what really happens? [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

....
Also the Armenian AN-26 crew stated that near nav. point Rabbit, on 30-40 degrees left, they saw flash and white smoke cloud.



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by carrick58. 05/05/21 12:26 AM
Hope everyone is having a good day
by oldgrognard. 05/04/21 02:09 PM
A long strange trip it's been
by rwatson. 05/03/21 04:31 PM
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