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#3674527 - 11/03/12 11:10 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) ***** [Re: Hpasp]  
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Mdore Offline
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Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?

Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.

Am I doing something wrong?

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#3674604 - 11/03/12 02:52 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Mdore]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mdore
Is it supposed to be impossible to hit the A-4 during training with the SA-4?

Always shortly after launch my missiles disappear. I guess hitting the ground? The manual says minimum target altitude is 300m, and I always launch when the target altitude is 600-1000m, but still they disappear.

Am I doing something wrong?


Use T/T guidance mode...Also low level killing envelope is quite small (wait 'till point of impact reaches ~12 km). It is nice when has some questions about SIM to post at least both AAR-s....

#3685423 - 11/20/12 02:41 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
i have some question about it:

1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it biggrin
2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country
3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G?
4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?

br

#3685587 - 11/20/12 06:12 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: farokh]  
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Originally Posted By: milang
i have some question about it:

1. why sa-4 ganef retire from sevis ? of course u talk about that but i forget it biggrin
2. why this system do not sent to other country ? no iran no iraq ... just serveral country
3. sa-4 missile can how many keep G force on air ? 10G ? 12G ? 14G?
4. why when i launched sa-4 and check 3daar ... missile like a crazy rocket going down and going up ?

br


1,2 I think that these were discussed earlier.

The main purpose of fielding the KRUG Brigade (SA-4B) was to defend the WarPact Army of Front SCUD (SS-1C) Brigade armed with nuclear weapons.


As no nuclear tipped SCUD (SS-1C) was exported outside the WarPact, there was no point to export its air defense.

When Hungary exited the WarPact, all nuclear warheads of our SCUD missiles were shipped back to Russia.



As Hungary never had any conventional warhead for the SCUD system, the SCUDs were scrapped, with its air defense few years after.

3, please read the manual.

Last edited by Hpasp; 11/20/12 07:03 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3685804 - 11/21/12 12:30 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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Rocket 3M8M3 the minimum allowable height of 150 meters.

The documentation is written!

#3685805 - 11/21/12 12:32 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Mdore]  
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Where did the user "Mdore" has found 300 meters

#3685894 - 11/21/12 05:15 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: max2012]  
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Mdore Offline
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Originally Posted By: max2012

Where did the user "Mdore" has found 300 meters


From the manual

"Selecting missile guidance method
Preparations for Shooting using 3m (Three Point) guidance method
(Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels)
If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-16km, V<=330m/s) the three-
point guidance method is selected.

...

Preparations for Shooting using 1&#8260;2 (Half-Lead) guidance method
(Push the X button to call up the Commanders and Angle Officers panels)
If the target parameters are in the green zone, (H 300m-24.5km, V<=800m/s) the half-
lead guidance method can be selected."

#3686004 - 11/21/12 11:25 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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It then tell me here?


#3686005 - 11/21/12 11:27 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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It is not clear there's 300 meters, 150 meters here!

#3686006 - 11/21/12 11:30 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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A4 objective without problems should, every missile can.

#3686010 - 11/21/12 11:40 AM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Here you just discussed this.

I didn't know then how come here 150 meters 300 meters ...


#3711776 - 01/04/13 12:52 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

When the target is above the the SNR, than several functions could return 0, so this issue should be investigated more.


I believe that when target goes out of P-40's detection, "Pat Hand" just must stop trackin it (when no range or angle track was established0, and when it appears again, should be reaquired with the joystick on p-40 and then send to "Pat hand'....

It is a quite an interesting issue how "Long track" is autotracking targets... confused


The 1S12 SOC (Long Track) tracks the target similarly as the modern digital radars (ST-68U [Tin Shield]) do, just they do it for several targets parallel.



It first measures the (X/Y/H)"0" coordinate of a target, than during the next sweep, finds the closest target to that coordinate.
This will be the (X/Y/H)"1" coordinate. With a quick math, delta(X/Y/H) is determined.
During the third sweep, it looks for the closest target at (X/Y/H)"1" + delta(X/Y/H).
That will be (X/Y/H)"2", and the difference from (X/Y/H)"1" is again delta(X/Y/H).
etc...

Last edited by Hpasp; 01/04/13 12:54 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3753061 - 03/18/13 07:46 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...

Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all? screwy

#3753065 - 03/18/13 07:54 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
According to the manual, the target and the missile where tracked by different antennas (1/2), and with ABC-I only - in (T/T)...

Let's imagine a situation of switching from 1/2 to T/T, if the missile is beyond the ABC-I diagram, could we loss a missile, and is such changing in methods of guidance is possible at all? screwy


Not exactly.

The target is always tracked by the AVS-I antenna.
Right after the launch, the missile is tracked by the AVS-II antenna system, in both (1/2, 3T) guidance methods.

During 1/2 guidance method, the missile is kept tracked by the AVS-II till hit.
With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/18/13 07:57 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3753072 - 03/18/13 08:19 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)


So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite? wink

#3753075 - 03/18/13 08:28 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

With 3T, if the missile is reached the AVS-I beam, than its guidance is switched from AVS-II to AVS-I, and this is indicated by the NAVED light. (manual page 43/5)


So, if we switch from 1/2 to t/t, it will change the antennas only when missiles goes in AVS-I beam... But what about the opposite? wink


The AVS-II is always tracking the missile, just the AVS-I is used for better resolution in case of 3T.
In real life, switching between method 3T to 1/2 would probably mean the loosing of the missile...

In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.

* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/18/13 08:38 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3753680 - 03/19/13 07:29 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

In the KRUG manual it is stated, that the Commander choose between the 3T* or 1/2 guidance method before launch, and it is forbidden to change it during missile flight.


OK, that's fine...

Originally Posted By: Hpasp
* please use 3T and 1/2 guidance methods when discussing the KRUG. (not T/T and UPR)
thumbsup


OK, I do, but 3T and T/T is the same ("trehtochka" - "three points" or "3 points")

#3753685 - 03/19/13 07:43 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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excuse me guys.. what different between 3T and T/T ? confused

#3753735 - 03/19/13 09:03 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79

OK, I do, but 3T and T/T is the same ("trehtochka" - "three points" or "3 points")


Correct.

Just use the correct name for the system.
KRUG use 1/2 or 3T guidance methods.
Osa will use the T/T or the Fi method.
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/19/13 09:14 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3754035 - 03/20/13 12:33 PM Re: 2K11-M1 KRUG-M1 (SA-4B Ganef) [Re: Hpasp]  
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farokh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Osa will use the T/T or the Fi method.
thumbsup


what is the FI mode ? this method usually use for IR tracking?

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