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#3620064 - 08/04/12 01:33 PM Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ  
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Our new FOE in action...



Last edited by Cat; 08/18/12 01:29 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3620089 - 08/04/12 02:23 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Our new FOE in action...


Wonder how it would looks like on the screen?
Click to reveal..


Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Could be a matter of mounting on a maneuverable aircraft.


I believe this decoy is deployable only when there is a threat on the airframe...

Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
Then why is all that fuss about the system? Towed Luneburg lens is known since 1960es...


Could you share some knowledge? wink

Last edited by piston79; 08/04/12 02:44 PM.
#3620134 - 08/04/12 03:43 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Our new FOE in action...


Wonder how it would looks like on the screen?
Click to reveal..



Like this*:



* Please note, that this is an in development screen-shot, where the AN/ALQ-131 ECM self defense system of the F-16CJ is switched off, for troubleshooting purposes.
With the completed version, you supposed to see jamming only...
biggrin

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/04/12 03:48 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3620171 - 08/04/12 04:42 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

* Please note, that this is an in development screen-shot, where the AN/ALQ-131 ECM self defense system of the F-16CJ is switched off, for troubleshooting purposes.
With the completed version, you supposed to see jamming only...
biggrin


It doesn't help against Dani&Anicic crew, though...
Also, if ALE-50 is not retranslating ECM noise jamming, in head-on attack doesn't help much to NATO witches... wink (RRU to have jamming in 3 rows, RS to the middle one....).

One mistery shot...:



What was in Serbia:



Last edited by piston79; 08/04/12 05:23 PM.
#3620184 - 08/04/12 05:04 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

One mistery shot...:



What they did to Serbia:


An RQ-1 Predator (serial 95-3019) was lost on May 13, when it was shot down by a Serbian Strela-1M (SA-9) surface-to-air missile over the village of Biba. A Serbian TV crew videotaped this incident.

The shot down RQ-1 Predator in the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, Serbia...


PS: these wars are interesting here only as weapon systems meet other weapon systems.
I'm not interested in any political issues behind those wars.


Last edited by Hpasp; 08/04/12 07:06 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3620201 - 08/04/12 05:45 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Video is from 31.05/01.06.1999....

#3620204 - 08/04/12 05:47 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79


Could you share some knowledge? wink


http://vpk-news.ru/articles/944

Starting with "Posle Indijskogo incidenta"

#3620221 - 08/04/12 06:30 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

An RQ-1 Predator (serial 95-3019) was lost on May 13, when it was shot down by a Serbian Strela-1M (SA-9) surface-to-air missile over the village of Biba. A Serbian TV crew videotaped this incident.


Here from 19:41...

#3620262 - 08/04/12 08:01 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79


It doesn't help against Dani&Anicic crew, though...
Also, if ALE-50 is not retranslating ECM noise jamming, in head-on attack doesn't help much to NATO witches... wink (RRU to have jamming in 3 rows, RS to the middle one....).



AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)
AN/ALQ-131 is used against impulse Doppler SAM systems (SA-2/3/4/8)

... so AN/ALE-50 has no big effect on the Neva.

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/04/12 08:06 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3620516 - 08/05/12 07:42 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)....


SA-5 recomendation are to track the target, using dopler frequency generated by the turbines (only the carrier has this,not the decoy), so again - no 100% efect... Also FKM mode could distinguish targets far better than MHI and also could provide some help...

#3620517 - 08/05/12 07:48 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)
AN/ALQ-131 is used against impulse Doppler SAM systems (SA-2/3/4/8)

... so AN/ALE-50 has no big effect on the Neva.


So the -50 simply lures away the incoming SARH missile to the decoy, which "shines" much brighter than aircraft iself?
But isn't there a chance that SA-2/SA-3 will also lock on decoy, from the very beginning, rather than aircraft itself?
Also, if the aircraft flies away from the SAM, there is a great chance that missile's proximity fuse will actuate itself off decoy, not aircraft. Considering long flight times of SA-2/SA-3 missiles, I, as a pilot, would consider such a turn as a very plausible maneuver.

#3620518 - 08/05/12 07:55 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Here,some short analyze of OAF:

Юго&#1...я.doc

(it's on russian)

Quote:
Also, if the aircraft flies away from the SAM, there is a great chance that missile's proximity fuse will actuate itself off decoy, not aircraft. Considering long flight times of SA-2/SA-3 missiles, I, as a pilot, would consider such a turn as a very plausible maneuver.

Yes... But if it doesn't use ECM (or we are in burnthrue range) - K3!

#3620525 - 08/05/12 08:10 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

Yes... But if it doesn't use ECM (or we are in burnthrue range) - K3!


I don't know how it happens in real life, but in LockOn combat flight sim (as SamSim, it only has noise jamming simulated) I always switch ECM off as I detect the missile launch against me: the jamming will reduce the launch range down to burnthrough range, but as the launch has occurred, jamming will only make it easier for the missile to find me.
Besides, even if jamming will still operate, like I said, there is a great chance that missile's prox. fuse will react on that decoy, not aircraft istself.
Regarding K3, this will work if we lock on aircraft, not the ALE-50. Considering much higher RCS of the decoy, I'd say that chances of actually locking on decoy instead of aircraft are pretty high.

#3620528 - 08/05/12 08:19 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357
Regarding K3, this will work if we lock on aircraft, not the ALE-50. Considering much higher RCS of the decoy, I'd say that chances of actually locking on decoy instead of aircraft are pretty high.

You are right! But it also depends of the skills of the operators (Akord-125 simulates variouse jamings) Also, if you see my Neva picture it distinguished pretty well two target at just 35 meters, and as I knew, towed decoys are at about 100-150 meters away. Still, better have your ECM suite on - apparently Lock-On developers doesn't have such a strong background as our beloved Hpasp has... wink thumbsup

Last edited by piston79; 08/05/12 09:11 AM.
#3620544 - 08/05/12 09:35 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)....


SA-5 recomendation are to track the target, using dopler frequency generated by the turbines (only the carrier has this,not the decoy), so again - no 100% efect... Also FKM mode could distinguish targets far better than MHI and also could provide some help...


I should note here that turbine blades are only visible from certain angles, and for modern fighter aircraft, these angles are pretty narrow, some 10-20 degrees from longitudal axis from both front and rear. Some aircraft, like B-1B, Rafale and Super Hornet feature either radar blockers or S-shaped intake ducts, so their engine compressor blades simply cannot be seen from the front. The same applies to all Stealth aircraft, of course.

#3620589 - 08/05/12 12:13 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

I should note here that turbine blades are only visible from certain angles, and for modern fighter aircraft, these angles are pretty narrow, some 10-20 degrees from longitudal axis from both front and rear. Some aircraft, like B-1B, Rafale and Super Hornet feature either radar blockers or S-shaped intake ducts, so their engine compressor blades simply cannot be seen from the front. The same applies to all Stealth aircraft, of course.


Agreed...

#3620596 - 08/05/12 12:30 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

So the -50 simply lures away the incoming SARH missile to the decoy, which "shines" much brighter than aircraft iself?


Yes

Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

But isn't there a chance that SA-2/SA-3 will also lock on decoy, from the very beginning, rather than aircraft itself?


In theory, there would be a chance for the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2F), that has no screen magnification feature...
The S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) and the S-125M Neva (SA-3B) could separate these targets easily...

... but the jamming of the AN/ALQ-131 should solve this issue.

Originally Posted By: Lonewolf357

Also, if the aircraft flies away from the SAM, there is a great chance that missile's proximity fuse will actuate itself off decoy, not aircraft. Considering long flight times of SA-2/SA-3 missiles, I, as a pilot, would consider such a turn as a very plausible maneuver.


Again, you are not supposed to see returns of either the F-16CJ, or the AN/ALE-50 through active jamming.


Inside of the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pod

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/05/12 12:33 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3621954 - 08/07/12 05:55 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79


It doesn't help against Dani&Anicic crew, though...
Also, if ALE-50 is not retranslating ECM noise jamming, in head-on attack doesn't help much to NATO witches... wink (RRU to have jamming in 3 rows, RS to the middle one....).



AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)
AN/ALQ-131 is used against impulse Doppler SAM systems (SA-2/3/4/8)

... so AN/ALE-50 has no big effect on the Neva.


I believe the AN/ALQ-131 does have techniques and capabilities available to it to counter CW threats. I think these jamming techniques are possibly selected via the 'SPL' (special) button on the C-9492 cockpit control panel.


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3621959 - 08/07/12 06:01 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: piston79


It doesn't help against Dani&Anicic crew, though...
Also, if ALE-50 is not retranslating ECM noise jamming, in head-on attack doesn't help much to NATO witches... wink (RRU to have jamming in 3 rows, RS to the middle one....).



AN/ALE-50 is used against CW SAM systems (SA-5/6/10)
AN/ALQ-131 is used against impulse Doppler SAM systems (SA-2/3/4/8)

... so AN/ALE-50 has no big effect on the Neva.


I believe the AN/ALQ-131 does have techniques and capabilities available to it to counter CW threats. I think these jamming techniques are possibly selected via the 'SPL' (special) button on the C-9492 cockpit control panel.



Correct, the AN/ALQ-131 has the capability of VGPO deception jamming technique against CW threats...
... but the Israelis were never "brave" enough, to try this technique during their wars, they rather elected to fly low and be penalized by low level Shilka and Strela units.
(If the VGPO deception jamming technique fails, than its use increase the chance of direct hit by the SARH SAM missile, by acting as a SAM magnet)

After the shot down of Scott O'Grady F-16 it seems, that US also decided not to use ALQ-131 VGPO deception technique any more against the KUB missile, but change tactics with the utilization of AN/ALE-50...

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/07/12 06:22 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3621972 - 08/07/12 06:25 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Correct, the AN/ALQ-131 has the capability of VGPO deception against incoming CW threats...
... but the Israelis were never brave enough, to try this technique, they rather elected to fly low and be penalized by Shilka and Strela.
(If the VGPO technique fails, than its use increase the chance of direct hit by the SARH SAM missile, by acting as a SAM magnet)

After the shot down of Scott O'Grady F-16, US also decided not to use ALQ-131 against the KUB M3 missile, but change tactics with the utilization of AN/ALE-50...

When you mention 'If the VGPO technique fails,', I assume you mean if the pull-off effect fails? I do wonder what would cause the jammer to continuously amplify its own position in such circumstances rather than switching off?

BTW the ALE-50 was apparently first used on the A-6 in the early 90's.

Last edited by Wolfhound; 08/07/12 06:29 PM.

*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3621983 - 08/07/12 06:37 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Originally Posted By: Wolfhound
Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Correct, the AN/ALQ-131 has the capability of VGPO deception against incoming CW threats...
... but the Israelis were never brave enough, to try this technique, they rather elected to fly low and be penalized by Shilka and Strela.
(If the VGPO technique fails, than its use increase the chance of direct hit by the SARH SAM missile, by acting as a SAM magnet)

After the shot down of Scott O'Grady F-16, US also decided not to use ALQ-131 against the KUB M3 missile, but change tactics with the utilization of AN/ALE-50...

When you mention 'If the VGPO technique fails,', I assume you mean if the pull-off effect fails? I do wonder what would cause the jammer to continuously amplify its own position in such circumstances rather than switching off?

BTW the ALE-50 was apparently first used on the A-6 in the early 90's.


This technique is only pulling the velocity gate off from the target, by amplifying the azimuth and elevation signal on target.
The question is if the SARH missile can reacquire the target, after its Doppler velocity gate was pulled off from it...
... if it can reacquire, than this technique is only acting as a SAM magnet.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3621989 - 08/07/12 06:45 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

This technique is only pulling the velocity gate off from the target, by amplifying the azimuth and elevation signal on target.
The question is if the SARH missile can reacquire the target, after its Doppler velocity gate was pulled off from it...
... if it can reacquire, than this technique is only acting as a SAM magnet.

I understand.
Thanks Hpasp thumbsup


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3799582 - 06/20/13 07:40 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


An RQ-1 Predator (serial 95-3019) was lost on May 13, when it was shot down by a Serbian Strela-1M (SA-9) surface-to-air missile over the village of Biba. A Serbian TV crew videotaped this incident.

The shot down RQ-1 Predator in the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, Serbia...





Gaskin has 3 000 meters height kill zone, how could be such a kill achieved?

#3799809 - 06/21/13 06:12 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79

Gaskin has 3 000 meters height kill zone, how could be such a kill achieved?

Launching from top of the mountain?

Prokletije(2694 m) + 3000+m(less air density) = 5694+m
biggrin


#3976459 - 07/03/14 06:55 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp


An RQ-1 Predator (serial 95-3019) was lost on May 13, when it was shot down by a Serbian Strela-1M (SA-9) surface-to-air missile over the village of Biba. A Serbian TV crew videotaped this incident.

The shot down RQ-1 Predator in the Museum of Aviation in Belgrade, Serbia...




- May 13, 1999 an unmanned reconnaissance (tail number 95-3019) shot down by air defense system "Strela-1" near the village of Biba;
- May 20, 1999 another RQ-1 (95-3021) came under SAM fire near the village Talinovtse (or Talinovtsi)(most probably from AA fire).

Source: http://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/...yugoslavii.html

Here (at the end) some video from Serbia:


Last edited by piston79; 07/04/14 06:21 PM.
#3977132 - 07/06/14 03:45 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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The radar/missile can re-acquire, but it's costing it seconds.

Also 'SAM Magnet' techniques are used by an aircraft with ECM flying further away than the bomber.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp
This technique is only pulling the velocity gate off from the target, by amplifying the azimuth and elevation signal on target.
The question is if the SARH missile can reacquire the target, after its Doppler velocity gate was pulled off from it...
... if it can reacquire, than this technique is only acting as a SAM magnet.


--
44th VFW
#4254962 - 05/02/16 05:17 AM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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The president Obama proposal for new Chief of Staff of US Air Force....:

http://www.af.mil/AboutUs/Biographies/Display/tabid/225/Article/108013/general-david-l-goldfein.aspx

...and his aircraft 17 years ago:


#4363486 - 06/12/17 07:12 PM Re: Our new FOE in action...F-16CJ [Re: Hpasp]  
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One of SAM crew, that shot down the F-16CG over Serbia...



[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/1HWxFEFDicM?t=1634[/video]


Last edited by piston79; 04/09/20 06:43 PM.
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by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
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