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#3596580 - 06/24/12 02:19 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: RoFfan]  
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Avimimus Offline
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Il-2 has kinda raised the bar too high in WWII products. Oleg himself tried to exceed it, and while he may have made an 'altitude record', the result is pretty much a crash. The code is too complex to debug quickly enough for rapid development, the number of aircraft is much lower, the modeling is so detailed that most players will never bother to assign all of the keys...

Of course, some type of fictional 1920s or 1930s war might be feasible ...no one has done that before and it could be kept more limited in scale.

Originally Posted By: RoFfan
The number of ground AI units is pretty high, too, but you rarely see them. Maybe some could be replaced with aircraft.


I believe that they are spawned when the player gets into range - so I doubt there are very many at any one time. They are also several orders of magnitude simpler in damage model, AI etc. So, I doubt we'd get even one plane through removing all the ground objects...

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#3596598 - 06/24/12 02:48 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: redpiano]  
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Originally Posted By: redpiano
Yes I seek to destroy the game I've dumped hundreds of dollars into, what kind of idiotic idea is that?

Just stating popular opinion Jason, you and I both know that ROF can't handle very much in a mission without imploding. Mission makers have said it dozens of times and it's true.


The EAF have just been running a PWCG COOP Campaign with at least 40 A/C in the air at a time. On some occasions we were in 20 plus furballs.
We saw no slow downs and this is online.

There maybe some limitations, but we have had the same thing in IL2 when too many ground units were in missions and don't get me started on CloD!!

#3596604 - 06/24/12 03:05 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Avimimus]  
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RoFfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Avimimus
Il-2 has kinda raised the bar too high in WWII products. Oleg himself tried to exceed it, and while he may have made an 'altitude record', the result is pretty much a crash. The code is too complex to debug quickly enough for rapid development, the number of aircraft is much lower, the modeling is so detailed that most players will never bother to assign all of the keys...

Of course, some type of fictional 1920s or 1930s war might be feasible ...no one has done that before and it could be kept more limited in scale.

Originally Posted By: RoFfan
The number of ground AI units is pretty high, too, but you rarely see them. Maybe some could be replaced with aircraft.


I believe that they are spawned when the player gets into range - so I doubt there are very many at any one time. They are also several orders of magnitude simpler in damage model, AI etc. So, I doubt we'd get even one plane through removing all the ground objects...


Try cycling through the ground objects with shift-f5 and ctrl-f5 when you are over the front. You'll be surprised! People are always complaining about the lack of ground activity, but there's actually a lot of it. It's just fact of flying an airplane that it's hard to see what's happening on the ground.

#3596613 - 06/24/12 03:20 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: redpiano]  
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Wklink Offline
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Originally Posted By: redpiano
Yes I seek to destroy the game I've dumped hundreds of dollars into, what kind of idiotic idea is that?

Just stating popular opinion Jason, you and I both know that ROF can't handle very much in a mission without imploding. Mission makers have said it dozens of times and it's true.


How is that really different from just about any WW2 simulation in the last 14 years? To be honest, the only sim that came close to accurately portraying the air war was EAW and there were a LOT of compromises that allowed that. I suppose BOBII has come close as well but it took a lot of tweaking on that engine to do it.

A WW2 sim from the ROF team would be fine but I hope they continue with the game they have now. This is one of the most outstanding sims ever created and it keeps getting better.


The artist formerly known as SimHq Tom Cofield
#3596617 - 06/24/12 03:32 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Wklink]  
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RoFfan Offline
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Originally Posted By: SimHQ Tom Cofield
Originally Posted By: redpiano
Yes I seek to destroy the game I've dumped hundreds of dollars into, what kind of idiotic idea is that?

Just stating popular opinion Jason, you and I both know that ROF can't handle very much in a mission without imploding. Mission makers have said it dozens of times and it's true.


How is that really different from just about any WW2 simulation in the last 14 years? To be honest, the only sim that came close to accurately portraying the air war was EAW and there were a LOT of compromises that allowed that. I suppose BOBII has come close as well but it took a lot of tweaking on that engine to do it.

A WW2 sim from the ROF team would be fine but I hope they continue with the game they have now. This is one of the most outstanding sims ever created and it keeps getting better.


The big limitation is money, I guess. Looking at the official forum: http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30768&start=40

I really hope 777 finds a way to tackle the things people are talking about here.

#3596621 - 06/24/12 03:39 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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Yes it does. I have DCS A-10 and CLOD and yet, hardly ever fly them. Don't know why. Something is keeping them from holding my interest, for some reason. When I want to fly some air combat, I jump into ROF. Hd a great time in my little Nieuport 17 last night. I don't want anyone to think I posted this becuase I'm ready to move on to somthing else.
It's probably, for that very reason, that I think they would be the one that I'd like to see tackle something like that.
I'm starting to get paranoid about posting anything. Someone always jumps in and starts a battle! I wind up feeling guilty that I said anything.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#3596634 - 06/24/12 04:20 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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NattyIced Offline
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Seems to me the limitation is resources and time. Money factors in there as well, but I'm getting from Jason that one FM guy and limited time means that the resources there have to be dedicated to creating new planes for us to buy.

#3596747 - 06/24/12 09:06 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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Uriah Offline
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Tom wrote "the only sim that came close to accurately portraying the air war was EAW " I always wondered why things looked in that game as I see in the movies. It always looked like a real air battle. I finally gave up EAW because of so few online players. The cockpit graphics are poor by today's standards. I like the feel of ROF. I feel it gives the best sense of flying of any game. I just can't see thru that upper wing. And I can find the enemy in IL-2 while in ROF I can fly for 30 min and never find the enemy on line player. Those are the reasons I fly IL2 over ROF. But I really do like RoF. I might change sometime.


Race you to the Mucky Duck!
#3596886 - 06/25/12 03:45 AM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Avimimus]  
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LukeFF Offline
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Originally Posted By: Avimimus
Of course, some type of fictional 1920s or 1930s war might be feasible ...no one has done that before and it could be kept more limited in scale.


That type of setting would go nowhere with potential buyers. It's like this infatuation some have with the Spanish Civil War.

#3597021 - 06/25/12 02:53 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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FlatSpinMan Offline
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Land of the Rising Sun
Or even Korea. I think it's a really interesting conflict and have some interest n playing a sim about it, but look at the planeset and the combatants. Late World War 2 Allied planes, early jets (which are really cool, I agree). If you could do close support against hordes of Chinese attacking hilltop bases with retreating marines etc, then it'd be great. But if it's just flying around shooting down one or two migs from a small flight,then, while still really appealing to me, it wouldn't really have mass market legs.
But developers, if you're reading, I said nothing! Go ahead and make it.

#3597027 - 06/25/12 03:19 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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There is quite a bit left in WWI yet so obviously I hope that 777 stays with it. I know that it becomes a tough sell when you get to the point of an Albatros C.V vs. a C.VII early vs. C.VII late, but we're not there yet. There are a bunch of viable planes left that hopefully would sell well.

#3597063 - 06/25/12 04:36 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
There is quite a bit left in WWI yet so obviously I hope that 777 stays with it. I know that it becomes a tough sell when you get to the point of an Albatros C.V vs. a C.VII early vs. C.VII late, but we're not there yet. There are a bunch of viable planes left that hopefully would sell well.


Amen! I still want to fly on the WWI Eastern and Italian fronts, too.


Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like bananas.
#3597102 - 06/25/12 05:51 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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HogDriver Offline
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I would buy a WW2 sim from 777 as a day one purchase on two conditions...
1. It can't be as broken and laughable as Cliffs of Dover was on release. (and to a lesser extent, still is)
2. I'd get to actually fight against more than 2 enemy aircraft on a career mission.

I only play ROF singleplayer and career mode is what interests me the most. Lately I've found myself just playing quick missions though. In the career, I doodle along for 5 minutes in accelerated time, and if I'm lucky, I'll get to fight 1-2 enemy planes before toddling off for another 5 minutes of speedy-time back to base. If I was only going to fight 2-3 enemies tops in career, I may as well do 3v3 or 4v4 quick missions and save the 10 minutes of accelerated boredom. I just miss out on the fun extras like medals and kill tallies.

They could even keep the "get 2 planes with the purchase of the game, and buy all the rest separately" thing. I really don't like it, but it hasn't stopped me from buying all but 2 planes so far.

I'm desperate for another GOOD WW2 flight sim with a proper career mode.


I refuse to buy a flight sim that I have no interest in playing, on the off chance that MAYBE someday they'll make the one I really want to play.

#3597104 - 06/25/12 05:56 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: HogDriver]  
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777 Studios - Jason Offline
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Originally Posted By: HogDriver


They could even keep the "get 2 planes with the purchase of the game, and buy all the rest separately" thing. I really don't like it, but it hasn't stopped me from buying all but 2 planes so far.

I'm desperate for another GOOD WW2 flight sim with a proper career mode.


When you download the Free2Play version you get 2 flyable. When you buy ROF you get the two free ones, plus 7 more flyables + 23 more A.I.

Jason

#3597120 - 06/25/12 06:22 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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Jedi Master Offline
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As stated, there's more to making a Channel Map into a new BoB sim than just putting in a few 1939-era Brit and German planes. A whole new set of ground objects, changes to the map itself, tons of new features...

If a "ROF2" is made someday, I agree WWII might be a good way to go instead of redoing ROF1 (like Black Shark 2 is just Black Shark 1 with improvements, it's not a "different" game) because I don't think ROF1 is maxed out on where it can go. Granted it has limitations imposed by the original abandoned business model, but they've done a good job working around those limits for the most part and I'd rather see an expansion to what ROF simulates in WWI rather than lots of behind-the-scenes work that just allow for perhaps more objects at once (which coincidentally would have to be free and wouldn't be something they could easily charge for).

Numero uno: a decent coverage of the entire air war from start to finish. We all know the early years are underrepresented, and playing a career in 1914 is a serious exercise of your suspension of disbelief because of how few planes from that era are there. While I admit it was a different era when they were made, Red Baron 1/2/3D managed to cover the whole war with a good number of planes no matter when you flew. That's what I'd like to see of ROF, and they'd get paid for each of those new planes people wanted to fly.


The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3597148 - 06/25/12 07:14 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Pooch]  
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It might not cover the whole war right now, but we're lucky it's covering some of the early war.

Right on the back of RoF's CD packaging: "All is not quiet on the Western Front in 1917..."

Last edited by NattyIced; 06/25/12 07:14 PM.
#3597159 - 06/25/12 07:53 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: HogDriver]  
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Force10 Offline
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Originally Posted By: HogDriver

2. I'd get to actually fight against more than 2 enemy aircraft on a career mission.

I only play ROF singleplayer and career mode is what interests me the most. Lately I've found myself just playing quick missions though. In the career, I doodle along for 5 minutes in accelerated time, and if I'm lucky, I'll get to fight 1-2 enemy planes before toddling off for another 5 minutes of speedy-time back to base. If I was only going to fight 2-3 enemies tops in career, I may as well do 3v3 or 4v4 quick missions and save the 10 minutes of accelerated boredom. I just miss out on the fun extras like medals and kill tallies.


This +1000 I was hoping to see more action in the career mode being an offline flyer but after reading what seems to be limitations on ROF engine I guess it's not going to happen. That's a shame because it's a beautiful running sim and had the potential to have me parting with a lot of my cash. But as Hogdriver said, taking off, fighting like 2 planes, and then coming home pretty much sums up the career mode right now. I suppose if that's never going to change, I should just gift the game with my 26 planes to someone. I will hang on to them a little longer in case some sort of "breakthrough" in the career mode happens.


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#3597174 - 06/25/12 08:35 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Jedi Master]  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master

<snip>
While I admit it was a different era when they were made, Red Baron 1/2/3D managed to cover the whole war with a good number of planes no matter when you flew. That's what I'd like to see of ROF, and they'd get paid for each of those new planes people wanted to fly.

The Jedi Master


We have to be a bit realistic about what RB3d provided out of the box.

1. German careers could not be started before Sept 1916, well after the Fokker scourge.
2. There were no early/mid war French 2 seaters. They used British 2 seaters in drag.
3. Missions parameters were very inaccurate - generally way too low.
4. Allied scouts never ever came over the lines. No offensive patrols.
5. Albatros C.III served from 1918 until the armistice.
6. etc. etc. etc. smile

With a FE2b, BE2c, and Albatros C.III we could pretty much recreate the RB3d early war plane set, with the same limitations (French get British planes in drag). I would buy them all, but the Fee would sell really well.

#3597194 - 06/25/12 09:17 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: Force10]  
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arjisme Offline
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Originally Posted By: Force10
But as Hogdriver said, taking off, fighting like 2 planes, and then coming home pretty much sums up the career mode right now.

The beta Career is a bit better than that, especially if you volunteer to fly a solo mission.

But if you really want to see the # of planes and a greater variety of encounters during a mission, PWCG is an excellent choice.

#3597258 - 06/25/12 11:13 PM Re: Spitfires And Messerschmidts.....Oh My! [Re: arjisme]  
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Originally Posted By: arjisme
Originally Posted By: Force10
But as Hogdriver said, taking off, fighting like 2 planes, and then coming home pretty much sums up the career mode right now.

The beta Career is a bit better than that, especially if you volunteer to fly a solo mission.

But if you really want to see the # of planes and a greater variety of encounters during a mission, PWCG is an excellent choice.


+1

Heck, even Jason himself said to do this as it is a conscious decision to limit the plane numbers so as not to negatively impact those with weaker computers. The limitation of the RoF software, according to Jason, is in that the software doesn't allow for an easy option in the UI to configure the amount of planes. That's the software limitation, not that they can't have more planes in the air but they choose to not do so at this time due to their base customer's computers. So if you want more planes, use Pat's excellent campaign generator. It really is a work of love that he keeps adding to (thanks again Pat for all your hard work mate!! salute ) all the time and is well worth a look.


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