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#3594288 - 06/19/12 06:46 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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About Far East.... Really far East...
http://veteranpvo.narod.ru/s200_sr71_061110/index_sr71_141110.html

PN79 - welcome back on Homeland! salute

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3594357 - 06/19/12 08:16 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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One thing I'd love to see is how each of the systems modeled in SAM Sim would do against a helicopter.

#3594386 - 06/19/12 09:10 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Vulture]  
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Gisen Offline
Wannabe Kogi Kaishakunin!
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Originally Posted By: Vulture
One thing I'd love to see is how each of the systems modeled in SAM Sim would do against a helicopter.


If only this could be developed as an expansion to DCS world, then it could be!


"Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false." Bertrand Russell
#3594642 - 06/20/12 12:42 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Jugoslavija
Here is the part of the war journal "Smena", written by Lieutenant colonel Djordje S. Anicic, where the discovery and shooting down of F-117A nighthawk are described translated to English.

Saturday, 27.03.1999.

There are no close targets in the air. There are plenty at long ranges, and different azimuths. Major Stoimenov gets up so I can sit, hands me headphones for communication with brigade command, and moves behind FCO. Rest of the men are at their places. My men. When Dani leaves in just a moment, I will sit at the place of launch handler*. By habit, Dani and I exchange information about latest events in the unit. In short I tell him what I did that afternoon, and he tells me, still napping, what he did. Radiation imitator is still not connected and ready ti work. Suddenly on the screen of observation radar, on azimuth 195 i spot a target at the range of 23km. Next sweep on the radar screen clearly shows that the plane is approaching us. I say: "Dani, this one is coming at us!" Dani opened his eyes, looked at the screen and uninterestedly followed the situation. Reflection was closing. Plane was at 14-15km, when Dani ordered: "Azimuth 210, search!" As assistant launch handler, at that moment I ordered: "Antena!" Battery commander started guiding tracking officers to the target - left, left:stop!, right, up, up:stop! - antena. He turned on radiation of the SNR. At that moment begins the game of cat and mouse. Who will be faster and more skillful. FCO, while turning three wheels at the same time, tries to acquire the target. SNR is on for more then 10s, and unsuccessfully searching the target. I order: "Stop searching - equivalent!" After several moments, Dani again orders new azimuth 230, and I moment of radiation. Adrenalin can be felt in the air. This time FCO manages to see the target on his two screens, but cant align it with horizontal and vertical markers. Wheels are clicking - he has to push them away from himself, align the target in intersection of these two markers. At the moment the target is in intersection of the markers, manual tracking operators can start tracking it in f1 and f2 planes. Then conditions for FCO to track the target in range and manual tracking operators to guide the missiles to the target in the crosshairs. Target is running and maneuvering. Again, radiation time is too long and I again order: "Stop searching - equivalent!" After a few seconds we try again, third time at azimuth 240. Very quickly, after a few seconds FCO finds the target and reports that the target is maneuvering. FCO wheels are clicking, operators are loosing it. Time of radiation is again too long and just as I was about to order: "Stop searching - equivalent!", tracking operator Dragan Matic yells: "Come on! Come on! I have him!" Frantically turning his wheel, he tried to get the reflection of the target to the middle of the screen. He made it. Tracking officers managed to align the target with the crosshairs, and met the conditions for the launch of the missiles. Second tracking officer Dejan Tiosavljevic reports that the target is of a large radar cross section. At that time I say to Dani: "Be sure that it is not a decoy." I think of war experiences in Iraq when the allied forces mounted corner reflectors on UAV-s and increased their radar cross section. Iraqis thought it is a real plane and started to radiate with their SNR. At that moment fighters in the air caught the locations of SNRs, and then from hiding on the side eliminated Rocket unit with ARMs. FCO Muminovic reports - SNR tracking the target, target approaching, range 13 kilometers. At the same time operators report - on f1 tracking target, on f2 tracking target. Dani commands: "Destroy target, method t/t, launch!" FCO Senad Muminovic presses the button to launch the rockets. Loud explosion. Booster motor of the first rocket screams. Rocket guidance station** rocks. First rocket starts, and after 5s the second one. FCO reports: "First launched, first acquired (tracking operators start guiding the missile towards the target), Second launched, second not acquired (unable to guide the second missile). Range 13 kilometers." Operators in f1 and f2 are tracking. I get up and watch the last kilometers of the rocket flight on FCO screen. At the point of collision a light flash on the screens is visible. Target destroyed. Time of destruction at 20.42. We found the plane at 6km altitude. Plane maneuver to avoid the missile and is hit at about 8-10 kilometers altitude. FCO did not readout other parameters, all happened in a few seconds. Entire process lasted about 23 seconds.
After that panic in the air - nowhere not even one target. At the command headquarters of 250. missile brigade Major Janko Aleksic, from the technical department. At his request I dictate the composition of the team that shot down the plane. Dani commanded only guidance method, and now I cover him and as per regulations I report way of the launch***, expended rockets, activation method of warhead, basic parameters of the target. "Great work, legends!" slipped from Major Aleksic.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

*launch handler - This is the commanding officer of the fire team.
**rocket guidance station - This is the trailer where the fire team is located.
***way of the launch - I'm not really sure what this is, it might be guidance method.



Even if it might not be fully correct word for word. I did my best and I hope you can at least get the essence from it.

Happy reading!


p.s. Also note that I did not translate the entire day described in the book. There was alot before it happened, and after. But I concluded that it was irrelevant and that nothing translated is out of context. Oh and about that where I said Dani was napping.He wasnt napping as in sleeping. He was just tired after his 8h shift and was too relaxed while nothing was happening in the air. This is not as bad as sleeping, bud still dangerous when you are in command of a Neva.

#3594722 - 06/20/12 03:34 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: vintorez]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: vintorez
OK, Uncle Vintorez hits the Vega! smile

1) Case: you launch missile without a GSN lock. Provided that no lock was obtained at all, the missile is lost always after the same ~60 km of initial flight, and that irrespective of its initial trajectory (low-alt, for close targets, or hi-alt, for distant targets). What is the reason? At least with hi-alt, the missile should have fuel / kinetic energy to cruise much longer, and drag should not be the issue. Auto-destruction triggered by some "KRO-too-long" stuff, or what?


One of the major advancement, of the S-200V Vega (SA-5B) system compared to the S-200A Angara (SA-5A), that its missile is keep flying to the previous direction, in case its GSN lost its target track. When a missile of an Angara system lost its track, the missile was simply lost. The Vega missile is capable of reacquiring the target during flight.

What happens, when you launch without lock?

The missile will keep its original direction 48 degree elevation, until GSN lock.


Originally Posted By: vintorez

2) Hpasp, you said once that increasing reflected signal strength while the missile-target distance is decreasing is fully modelled so that the missile can catch the signal in flight even if its strength measured at the radar remains the same (I mean, too low for LOBL). Is it really so? I haven't observed such effect even once, and I am sure there are at least several situations when, if modelled, it should bring a kill.


Problem (might be) is that we are not talking on linear units, rather logarithmic decibels.

Originally Posted By: vintorez

3) what is the difference between incoming- and receding-target related settings at GSN? Does the missile fired at incoming target with "incoming" GSN setting have a chance to continue track after target turns? In Ashuluk, I managed to kill an incoming target with V<0 setting without any problem. As far as I can remember, in combat scenarios it makes no difference too.


There is no V<0 GSN setting, its just a subversion of "acquire after launch".

Originally Posted By: vintorez

4) Is it possible to see your missile on your Square Pair display? If range screen gives you some idea about group targets, I wonder whether the hit (at least target echo growing for a short while - or blinking - when covered by splinter cloud from a close explosion) should't be visible too? The same with HARM launch from a tracked target (e.g. a speed strip splitting in two, and the latter accelerating before lost from the screen)?


Splinter cloud is not modeled with the Vega.
Missile could be visible, just do not forget, that it flies away from you at high speed.

cowboy


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3594724 - 06/20/12 03:37 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Can i ask a reward?

Click to reveal..
13:46 24th of March, 1986.
Operation Prairie Fire

S-200VE Vega-E


00:04:28, Missile launched from launcher-1
Target distance: 88km
Target azimuth: 12
Target elevation: 2
Target angular speed: 275m/s (0,9 Mach)
Target altitude: 4,5km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 38,7dB


00:04:34, Missile launched from launcher-2
Target distance: 86km
Target azimuth: 12
Target elevation: 2
Target angular speed: 275m/s (0,9 Mach)
Target altitude: 4,5km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 38,9dB


00:04:39, Missile launched from launcher-3
Target distance: 85km
Target azimuth: 12
Target elevation: 2
Target angular speed: 275m/s (0,9 Mach)
Target altitude: 4,5km
RPC mode: MHI - Narrow Beam
GSN mode: Acquire target during flight
Received signal strength: 39dB


00:05:34, Missile exploded
F-14B Tomcat killed by SAM. (miss distance: 2m)

00:05:42, Missile exploded
F-14B Tomcat killed by SAM. (miss distance: 6m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 38sec


Click to reveal..


Can i ask a YouTube Video?
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3594725 - 06/20/12 03:40 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: jazjar]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazjar
So, RV-SB is low altitude fuse, RV is high altitude fuse, K3 is automatic destruction of missile by the system. And RV and RV-SB both arm the missile straight after launch? They just have different fuse sensitivities, correct?


They are mostly the same as we have with the Volhov, the difference, is that the Neva can select them automatically.

Neva / Volhov
RV / STAN
RV-SV / USU-NLC
K3 / K3


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3594727 - 06/20/12 03:42 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: jazjar]  
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Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: jazjar
Hah! Another basic question of S-125, how many degrees does it scan in azimuth? It is not in the manual. This is when the S-125 is in non-tracking mode. I mean the beam of the radar


1,5 degree


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3594732 - 06/20/12 03:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Vulture]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Vulture
One thing I'd love to see is how each of the systems modeled in SAM Sim would do against a helicopter.


In the Hungarian Scenario, you can add a Cessna-172.
It is like a Helicopter.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3594773 - 06/20/12 04:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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jazjar Offline
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Done http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ymWrOmeDg&feature=plcp
Looks unprofessional, sorry, and I am also so ADD/ADHD when I play this, with all erratic movements.

Last edited by jazjar; 06/20/12 04:58 PM.
#3594778 - 06/20/12 05:01 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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jazjar Offline
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Darn, it doesnt show up on search

#3594802 - 06/20/12 05:43 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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#3594852 - 06/20/12 07:28 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: jazjar]  
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piston79 Offline
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Originally Posted By: jazjar
Darn, it doesnt show up on search


you should tag it...!!!!

#3594949 - 06/20/12 10:29 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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jazjar Offline
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Hpasp,about the Vega, can I ask what the range is before the missile is incapable of achieving lock? Is it ~60km as vintorez stated? Also, is the increasing signal strength actually modelled when the missile to target distance is decreasing? Could we have the specifics on it, you said it was a logarithmic graph of some sort, correct? Thank you!

#3595142 - 06/21/12 10:08 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Apr 2012
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farokh Offline
farokh
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Member

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Posts: 914
I-RAN
picture today :


#3595221 - 06/21/12 02:22 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: jazjar]  
Joined: Dec 2009
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: jazjar
Hpasp,about the Vega, can I ask what the range is before the missile is incapable of achieving lock? Is it ~60km as vintorez stated?


No.

When the missile looses its track, it will continue its flight straight.
It will be lost, when it flies out of its effective envelope.

cowboy


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3595222 - 06/21/12 02:25 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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GrayGhost Offline
Hotshot
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Posts: 6,074
Hpasp, would you have an opinion on the Air Siberia shoot-down by Ukrainian SA-5?


--
44th VFW
#3595248 - 06/21/12 03:34 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: GrayGhost]  
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farokh Offline
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I-RAN
dear gray ghost .. im not mr.hpasP but......... i read about this senario! im sad about his happend nope

i dont know why sam crew dont use IFF system! duh
tracking unkown target without IFF Was a big mistake!

also this is not only happend! around 1980 or 1990 one uss navy (vinesens) tracking and hit one airbus number 655 with 2 missiles (standard missile 2) and after report action them cll'd ooo we hit f-14 ! and then after pass few houre they understand that hited plan is a civil airraft with around 200 passenger! nope


Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Hpasp, would you have an opinion on the Air Siberia shoot-down by Ukrainian SA-5?

#3595268 - 06/21/12 04:15 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 105
PN79 Offline
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S-125 in Tripoli

One thing for Hpasp - Could be function of P-15 radar modified in that way that after we activate SAM battery one of the aircrafts targets our P-15 radar with its HARM? Now we have instantly destroyed P-15 radar in Benghazi and no attack against it in Tripoli.


Click to reveal..


2:00am 15th of April, 1986.
Operation El-Dorado Canyon raid against Tripoli.

Targets:
Bab al-Aziziyah barracks - 6 F-111F Aardvark, each armed with 4 GBU-10 LGB
Murat Sidi Bilal Naval base - 3 F-111F Aardvark, each armed with 4 GBU-10 LGB
Tripoli AFB - 5 F-111F Aardvark, each armed with 12 Mk.82/BSU-49 high-drag bombs

Supporting force:
6 A-7E Corsair-II SEAD (VA-46 Clansmen, VA-72 Blue Hawks from the CV-66 USS America)
4 F-14A Tomcat CAP (VF-33 Starfighters, VF-102 Diamondbacks from the CV-66 USS America)
3 EF-111A Raven ECM
1 EA-6B Prowler ECM (VMAQ-2 Playboys from the CV-43 USS America)

S-125M1 Neva

00:00:36, F-111F Remit-31 bombed Bab al-Aziziyah barracks, with 4 GBU-10 LGB.

00:01:00, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 12km
Target azimuth: 326
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:01:06, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 10km
Target azimuth: 331
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:01:11, A-7E Corsair-II No.1, VA-46 Clansmen launched AGM-88 HARM missile No. 1


00:01:15, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-111F Remit-33 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 25m)

00:01:20, Missile exploded on Channel-2
F-111F Remit-33 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 23m)

00:03:18, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 11km
Target azimuth: 333
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:23, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 10km
Target azimuth: 339
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:30, A-7E Corsair-II No.2, VA-46 Clansmen launched AGM-88 HARM missile No. 1


00:03:31, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 9km
Target azimuth: 349
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:36, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 8km
Target azimuth: 358
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:03:44, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-111F Karma-51 hit by SAM. (miss distance: 111m)

00:03:49, Missile exploded on Channel-2
F-111F Karma-51 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 37m)
00:05:36, F-111F Jewel-61 bombed Murat Sidi Bilal Naval base, with 4 GBU-10 LGB.
00:06:08, F-111F Jewel-62 bombed Murat Sidi Bilal Naval base, with 4 GBU-10 LGB.

00:06:24, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 18km
Target azimuth: 298
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:06:29, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 16km
Target azimuth: 294
Target elevation: 0
Target altitude: 49m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:06:36, A-7E Corsair-II No.2, VA-72 Blue Hawks launched AGM-88 HARM missile No. 1

00:06:41, F-111F Jewel-63 bombed Murat Sidi Bilal Naval base, with 4 GBU-10 LGB.
00:06:49, F-111F Puffy-11 bombed Tripoli AFB, with 12 Mk.82/BSU-49 high-drag bombs.

00:06:50, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 12km
Target azimuth: 277
Target elevation: 3
Target altitude: 839m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:06:56, V601P 5V27U Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 273
Target elevation: 3
Target altitude: 840m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


00:07:19, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-111F Jewel-63 hit by SAM. (miss distance: 107m)
00:07:53, F-111F Lujac-24 bombed Tripoli AFB, with 12 Mk.82/BSU-49 high-drag bombs.
00:08:28, F-111F Lujac-22 bombed Tripoli AFB, with 12 Mk.82/BSU-49 high-drag bombs.
00:09:00, F-111F Lujac-23 bombed Tripoli AFB, with 12 Mk.82/BSU-49 high-drag bombs.

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 10sec


... and I survived smile

#3595285 - 06/21/12 04:41 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: GrayGhost]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
Hpasp, would you have an opinion on the Air Siberia shoot-down by Ukrainian SA-5?


I cannot say anything about this incident, as I not seen any concrete information about it.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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