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#3590698 - 06/12/12 07:24 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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The ARM guidance head is usually based on monopulse method (same as used with the KRUG system [YOU SHOULD KNOW IT ALREADY!!!]), as the targeted SAM system can be switched off at any moment. In fact most if not all modern radar guided missiles use a monopulse antenna design. Let's see if someone starts building AESA-radared missiles ...  Thanks for the pic BTW, I had not seen that antenna before. Agree, monopulse design has succeeded all the others in newer systems... 2K11 KRUG (SA-4) S-200 Vega (SA-5) 2K12 KUB (SA-6) 9K33 OSA (SA-8) S-300PT/PS/PMU (SA-10) S-300PM/PMU1/PMU2 (SA-20) S-400 (SA-21) + All Patriot designs.  We, SAM Fire Control Officers know this antenna design (somehow) very well...  
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/12/12 07:27 PM.
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#3590708 - 06/12/12 07:47 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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These days it's also backed up by GPS and a couple other goodies, including potentially an active MMW seeker ...
According to a few things I heard, a wild weasel or a group of them can quickly and accurately determine the location of a SAM ... this information can then be used to deal with some (though I suspect not all) decoys.
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44th VFW
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#3590712 - 06/12/12 07:52 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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These days it's also backed up by GPS and a couple other goodies, including potentially an active MMW seeker ...
According to a few things I heard, a wild weasel or a group of them can quickly and accurately determine the location of a SAM ... this information can then be used to deal with some (though I suspect not all) decoys. Against active radar guidance HARM (with MMW seeker), the best method of defense is the same, as you used against our active radar missiles... ... chaff! Gazetchik-E  ... and some other tricks: http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SAM-DefAids.html
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/12/12 08:07 PM.
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#3590718 - 06/12/12 07:56 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
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Against active radar guidance HARM (with MMW seeker), the best method of defense is the same, as you used against our active radar missiles... ... chaff! And fog....  And it cannot use MTI!  ... What a quriosity, SAM batterie droping chaffs on it's own position...
Last edited by piston79; 06/13/12 04:49 AM.
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#3590893 - 06/13/12 01:44 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
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Posts: 6,893
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The jamming pod picks up the signal and jams it. It has no need to jam a non-existent signal.
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44th VFW
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#3590895 - 06/13/12 01:46 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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It really doesn't need to. Even if the HARM only 'drops close' it will be scary at minimum. Its seeker capability is backed up with GPS as well. It basically has three guidance methods, all of which are accurate on their own. And fog.... And it cannot use MTI! ... What a quriosity, SAM batterie droping chaffs on it's one position...
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44th VFW
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#3591063 - 06/13/12 12:27 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: jazjar]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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Depends on the jammer, I suppose. Ideally you want the jammer to 'respond' within the first few pulses of a threat signal, which happens faster than you can blink an eye. In a game, it isn't entirely unfair to model it as instantaneous. Hmm, but why is it so instantaneous? Can the computers in the jammer process my beam so fast that it can send its own out so fast that I can't even tell the difference on the scope? Will test with linebackers.
Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/13/12 12:28 PM.
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44th VFW
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#3591112 - 06/13/12 01:40 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
farokh
farokh
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farokh
Member
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 916
I-RAN
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hi helo guys i think i found a somthing in lead 1/2 method guidance sa-4 ! loock az this 10:22am 30th of June 1970
First wave, performing reconnaissance of the Cairo air defense system.
Reconnaisance force:
4 RF-4 Orev
4 Mirage-IIICJ
2K11 KRUG-M1
00:02:25, Missile launched
Target distance: 49km
Target azimuth: 16°
Target elevation: 10°
Target altitude: 9.4km
Missile guidance method: 1/2 (Half Lead)
00:03:55, Missile launched
Target distance: 34km
Target azimuth: 30°
Target elevation: 10°
Target altitude: 6km
Missile guidance method: 1/2 (Half Lead)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 4min 39sec
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#3591261 - 06/13/12 06:26 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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I'll be glad if someone explains how this things work... KRUG and Vega uses the monopulse method of target tracking. Instead of mechanically scanning the target like the Dvina/Volhov/Neva...  ... they emit only one impulse in a pencil beam. (blue)  They receive the reflected signal with three physically displaced antenna. (red/green/blue) With simple math, the target precise position can be calculated. - red antenna received signal phase equals the target delta horizontal direction from the boresight. - green antenna received signal phase equals the target delta vertical direction from the boresight. - blue antenna received signal phase equals the target delta direction from the boresight. am I confusing?   What you see here are the physically displaced receiver helix antennas. They receive the incoming impulse (from the SAM), and by calculating the phase difference of the received signal, and knowing the distance of the helixes, they can accurately measure the impulse emitter direction from only one received signal. Then the head tracking mechanics tries to set the tracking head at a direction, where the received signal phase is the same.
Last edited by Hpasp; 06/13/12 06:29 PM.
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#3591267 - 06/13/12 06:32 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
GrayGhost
Hotshot
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Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,893
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I was wondering about the spiral antennae on the HARM seeker - ie. why do it this way instead of just four simple dipoles. I wonder if the varying width of the antenna helps it capture multiple wavelengths simultaneously, which would certainly help the seeker cope with radars of various wavelengths.
At the same time, my naive understanding of radio mechanics tells me that it would be blind to a bunch of wavelengths because of this as well (but you get a lot of bandwidth to help you deal with actual threat/guidance radars, so it's not all bad).
--
44th VFW
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#3591287 - 06/13/12 07:06 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: GrayGhost]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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I was wondering about the spiral antennae on the HARM seeker - ie. why do it this way instead of just four simple dipoles. I wonder if the varying width of the antenna helps it capture multiple wavelengths simultaneously, which would certainly help the seeker cope with radars of various wavelengths. Correct. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_antenna
At the same time, my naive understanding of radio mechanics tells me that it would be blind to a bunch of wavelengths because of this as well (but you get a lot of bandwidth to help you deal with actual threat/guidance radars, so it's not all bad).
Spiral is one of the best choice for frequency and polarization independent, small sized antenna. Low gain is not an issue in ARM role. 
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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