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#3561527 - 04/23/12 07:13 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Richardg]  
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Originally Posted By: Richardg
Screw em, let em go the way of the dodo bird.


Exactly. So we can go play one of those other Great War air combat simulat.... oh.

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#3561677 - 04/24/12 01:32 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: NattyIced]  
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navair2 Offline
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Originally Posted By: NattyIced
Originally Posted By: Richardg
Screw em, let em go the way of the dodo bird.


Exactly. So we can go play one of those other Great War air combat simulat.... oh.


hahaha


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#3561811 - 04/24/12 10:54 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Richardg]  
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Originally Posted By: Richardg
They know its jacked up and buggy, and they will never fix it.


Oh, really?

#3561912 - 04/24/12 02:26 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Their business model does not really give a lot of room for engine modifications that wont bring in more paying customers. I hope that they can see that fixing the gunner would bring in more customers though.

Right now any free account can gun for someone. First thing that they do is learn that they can blow their own wing/tail off. That ends with the pilot cussing them out and either locking them out or kicking them out of the next flight. Then they learn that the whole gunner system is extremely screwed up in that when you least expect or want it to, shooting at an enemy plane, it acts the worst and prevents you from doing the only thing the gunner CAN do and that is shoot the enemy.

So you come out of your demo of the game thinking wow if the gunner is this screwed up why should I even stay let alone buy things for this game.

How is that a good thing for the sim? How do you expect to recruit paying customers like that? My mind is baffled at how this has not been fixed for so long.

Last edited by Master; 04/24/12 02:31 PM.

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#3561995 - 04/24/12 04:47 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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The vast majority who come to RoF are interested in flying, not playing a FPS in the air. Still, you are right that it could be a turn off for some.

Some have said that RoF has gone overboard with graphical enhancements instead of improving the simulation side of things. Hopefully that will change in the future. We're still hoping for correct wind vector resolution, Lewis and Parabellum guns (a big deal for those who like to gun from the observer's seat), flight model reviews, and so on. Maybe Luke knows something we don't know, but for now I haven't seen indication that these things are going to be improved in our beloved sim.

#3562061 - 04/24/12 06:09 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master

How is that a good thing for the sim? How do you expect to recruit paying customers like that? My mind is baffled at how this has not been fixed for so long.


Hey, you have stated your case and you seem to have a good one, so don't ruin it by becoming unnecessarily whiny and repetitive. There's a fine line between raising a valid compaint and getting into non-productive incessant whining (like some sad gits have done in the past). No need to go down that road.

As I am sure you realise there ARE very many balls to keep in the air when you are the developer of a fringe sim with a rather small customer base. Respect that they have priorities. I am sure they have noted your issue down, now it is time to step respectfully back and let them deal with it as they seem fit (imho). Anything else is just not productive...


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#3564153 - 04/28/12 10:16 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Avimimus Offline
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IMHO, they've done a very good job of balancing improvements to the underlying engine with profitable content (ie. things they can actually sell in order to stay in business).

However, it would be great to have additional controls for the gun rings, better modelling of g-force effects, wind - and especially - gun recoil, on how easy it is to move the gun.

#3564180 - 04/28/12 11:52 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Lets fix the gunners, so when the plane is rolled inverted they fall out. Or when the pilot yaws like he has restless leg syndrome they knock themselves out with the weapons. Or when the pilot pulls back too hard the gunner is too busy trying to not go through the belly side of the plane's fabric. or.....

The observer/rear gunner is broken, just less in the direction some want it to be "fixed."

Last edited by NattyIced; 04/28/12 11:52 PM.
#3564953 - 04/30/12 11:22 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
We're still hoping for ... Lewis and Parabellum guns (a big deal for those who like to gun from the observer's seat), ...., but for now I haven't seen indication that these things are going to be improved in our beloved sim.


Sure ?

Last edited by Juergen; 04/30/12 11:23 AM.
#3564954 - 04/30/12 11:27 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Richardg]  
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Juergen Offline
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Originally Posted By: Richardg
They know its jacked up and buggy, and they will never fix it..... they aren't interested in fixing real game play problems.


You either have information we dont have, or you are talking b...sh.t. If you have free time, make a list of all fixes of "real game play" they made in the last 3 years. It will not fit on one page.

Last edited by Juergen; 04/30/12 11:27 AM.
#3565022 - 04/30/12 01:23 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: NattyIced]  
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Originally Posted By: NattyIced
Lets fix the gunners, so when the plane is rolled inverted they fall out. Or when the pilot yaws like he has restless leg syndrome they knock themselves out with the weapons. Or when the pilot pulls back too hard the gunner is too busy trying to not go through the belly side of the plane's fabric. or.....

The observer/rear gunner is broken, just less in the direction some want it to be "fixed."


You think the real gunners of WWI were all suicidal idiots? - They strapped themselves in for combat, so they wouldn't fall out. They trained hard to be able to defend their plane in turning combat, because, ehhh, their life actually depended on it, you know?


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#3565026 - 04/30/12 01:25 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Frey, he was just making a point... thumbsup


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#3565086 - 04/30/12 04:54 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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NattyIced Offline
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Yes, I was trying to show that there are all sorts of things wrong with the rear gunner but people only want the ones that make it easier.

However, I have read several books where planes hit atmospheric conditions that caused some extreme maneuvers that left the observer/gunner hanging onto his weapon or dangling over the side.

#3565111 - 04/30/12 05:52 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I am more then accepting of things that adversely affect the gunner as long as we can also fix the core problems with the gunner.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3565174 - 04/30/12 07:30 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Quote:
You think the real gunners of WWI were all suicidal idiots? - They strapped themselves in for combat, so they wouldn't fall out. They trained hard to be able to defend their plane in turning combat, because, ehhh, their life actually depended on it, you know?


This kind of appeal to common sense is not a valid form of argument, especially when dealing with events from 100 years ago during the dawn of aviation. The remark about "training hard" also belies the reality of WW1 air crew training, where boys were thrown into combat with less than 20 hours of flight time.

Anyway, there was a huge discussion about this at the RoF forum. Historical evidence is that gunners were not always strapped in, and some were thrown from the aircraft. One anecdote in particular describes the gunner aiming with one hand and holding onto the aircraft with the other when the aircraft was in a turn.

If this seems crazy, remember that these guys weren't wearing parachutes, and their aircraft were doped with highly flammable resin. eek

#3568239 - 05/06/12 02:40 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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A point Master also brings up is a way to address fixing core game problems. Right now there may not be incentive to do so because there is no income to pay for such things. It makes sense to make a new plane or field mods because they can sell them to pay for the development. But how can they fund the time needed to improve core features of the game? Not only gunners being fixed, but a better interface and squad features etc.
So if it takes some dedicated supporters to help fund this, is that possible?

As far as the guns, there are only two things a new player can do when they first get the demo. Either fly one of the provided fighter planes with the demo, or gun.
A new player will take some time to get good flying the fighters. So they will want to try the other one thing they can do which is gun. Everyone I talked to runs into the same issue with the weird gun control. It doesn't feel realistic at all. If it's going to feel so detached from feeling your are actually controlling the gun, then you might as well add unrealistic accuracy instead and have a better feel of control of the gun itself. This would be less of a turn off to new players and vets as well.

I would also contribute to the development of fixing these core game problems that are being overlooked if that's a possibility.
Maybe it could be funded by selling something like a small custom personalized patch or insignia that you could put on your plane. Something that would also show you are a supporter. I would pay $100 for an approved personalized insignia that I could add to my fuselage for instance.

#3568941 - 05/07/12 07:30 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: JDski]  
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Originally Posted By: JDski

I would also contribute to the development of fixing these core game problems that are being overlooked if that's a possibility.
Maybe it could be funded by selling something like a small custom personalized patch or insignia that you could put on your plane. Something that would also show you are a supporter. I would pay $100 for an approved personalized insignia that I could add to my fuselage for instance.


100 bucks is a way too steep but other than that I think this is a really good idea!
What I would pay 100 bucks for though is a livery editor al Forza Motorsport 4, basically you just form layers out of squares, circles, triangles etc and create your own logo`s and themes (In this case you can make your own lozenge pattern for example) put them on the vehicle (And the layers are saveable in a reference folder for future use on any other vehicle if you so wish): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0ntfmgbhOY&feature=related
This would completely eliminate the need for any skin approval and anyone with a bit of patience can paint up their aircraft exactly the way they want, and with the colors available to the players decided by what the devs would deem non useable for any sort of super stealth paintjobs there`d be no risk of exploiting the editor.

Oh and ya, gunner needs fixin`! (Doh) backtracedit

#3568959 - 05/07/12 07:55 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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The FM editor would be nice but honestly I think if we started with something more like RedBaron 3D had it would go over better.

Also, 100 bucks for a FM editor would be awesome. One thing you run into though is that if you allow both sides to customize their paints some people will go crazy with it and it will be hard to tell if it was an allied or cp plane. You could lock the insignias on the wings and tail but even that might be too much as you could overload the plane skin.

I think a RB3d editor would be a better choice. Give a bit less customization and still retain the feel for a personalized plane.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3581924 - 05/29/12 03:01 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I just saw this post in the Screenshots forum:

Originally Posted By: 777 Studios - Jason
The rockets are fun. And so is the improved turret.


Improved turret?!? Could this mean they are fixing the lousy turret controls?!?


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#3581926 - 05/29/12 03:07 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I think he just means the turret upgrades IE special turret guns.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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