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#3560653 - 04/22/12 02:26 AM Fixing the tail gunners? How much?  
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How much money would it take donated to 777 studios to get the tail gunners fixed? Just looking for a ball park figure Jason cause I am willing to do a donation drive to get this fixed asap!


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#3560678 - 04/22/12 03:28 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Oh, right...you mean the "overshoot-spin-around-and-get-stuck-facing-the-side-of-the-aircraft-instead-of-at-the-enemy" tendency of the rear gun position in 2-seaters or bombers... 50cal

Yeah, I love it, too. sigh


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#3560692 - 04/22/12 04:09 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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When I think of fixing gunners, I think of "make them unable to put a bullet between my eyes from 200 yards while pulling 3 Gs".

#3560738 - 04/22/12 06:28 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Tail Gunners seem fine to me.

Sure, I've been bloodied up and/or oil leaked...but that only happens when I press a poor attack, they're easy enough to avoid.

...even from the other perspective, without using my 2-seater's fixed-forward, my gunner always averages around a four percent accuracy rating.

HARDLY A SNIPER IN ANYONE'S BOOK!

...conclusion?

Folks just need to quit flying so straight when attacking the heavies!

Nutin' is what I would consider broken.


meh...

*shrug*


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#3560746 - 04/22/12 06:39 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Try flying a two seater a while. They aren't the snipers that most people seem to make them out to be. I survive MUCH longer when I have a good human gunner instead of the AI gunning. Yes, every once in a while they seem to make an impossible shot, but I've seen the same happen with front guns on fighters too. My AI tailgunners usually average between two and five percent accuracy. A friend and I were just on the Syndicate server and he flew gunner for me. He had FORTY PERCENT accuracy.


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#3560769 - 04/22/12 08:23 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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There's a mod to affect tail gunner sniping here is this what you meant?

#3560815 - 04/22/12 12:33 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Currently our rear gunners do not have to manually reload their weapons, which was a big deal for the Lewis gun (every 97 rounds), and sort of a big deal for the parabellum (every 250 rounds). I don't see that as a small detail that is missing.

Complaints about AI snipers just come back to the fact that we fire friggn' laser beams in RoF, not bullets. thumbsup

#3560926 - 04/22/12 05:12 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I dont mean the sniping. Anyone who has flown one or gunned in the back knows that the only sniping is from the AI.

What I am talking about is this.

Originally Posted By: navair2
Oh, right...you mean the "overshoot-spin-around-and-get-stuck-facing-the-side-of-the-aircraft-instead-of-at-the-enemy" tendency of the rear gun position in 2-seaters or bombers...


The problem is that you do not directly control the gun. You control an aiming point that the gun swivels to at it's own leisure. If you place that aiming point (which you can not see in realistic mode) in a position where the gun can not aim to then the gun freaks out and points to a direction randomly away from the invisible aiming point. Then you run into the situation where the gun is no longer tied to the mouse because the pointer for the mouse is an invisible aiming point nowhere near where the gun is aiming. So you are frantically trying to get the gun to swivel back to where you were aiming and then the mouse locks up and the gun wont move.

I propose that the "wasd" keys control the ring movement directly a and d would turn the ring left and right and the ring would swivel freely instead of locking up after 40X degrees of rotation. The w and s keys would control the vertical height adjustment at a slower speed (while locking the gun movement so that you cant adjust the hight and still shoot the gun.) Then the mouse would control the gun directly as if in a first person shooter. There would also need to be some dispersion added for any sort of g-force from the pilot.

The problem with the current tail gun system is that it is not intuitive. You are not moving the gun when you move the mouse you move an invisible pointer which can get caught on things, lock up or send the tail gun veering off in a crazy direction unrelated to the invisible pointer.

I would rather have the gun movements directly controlled by the player and have the guns less accurate as would everyone I have talked with about this problem.

I understand that these guns were not easy to use but they were also not as defunct and what we have now. I have in fact used a very similar system mounted on the top of a truck bed and it was very easy to use and the gun always pointed where I wanted.

I am also serious. I am willing to pay money to have this problem fixed. I have bought the game (iron cross and a few cl2/dfw/gothas) for about 20 people the last 2 months and each one has pretty much walked away from the game over their hatred of the tail gunners. No one wants to gun for them because the gunner position is so unintuitive. This is a broken feature of the core game. When it first came out I chalked it up to needing refinement or patching but then it was never readdressed.

How much to readdress it? Or is this something that will never change? Because if that is the case you are loosing out on a large group of potential customers who fly bombers and 2 seaters.

Last edited by Master; 04/24/12 04:32 PM.

And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3560928 - 04/22/12 05:13 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: RoFfan]  
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Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Currently our rear gunners do not have to manually reload their weapons, which was a big deal for the Lewis gun (every 97 rounds), and sort of a big deal for the parabellum (every 250 rounds). I don't see that as a small detail that is missing.

Complaints about AI snipers just come back to the fact that we fire friggn' laser beams in RoF, not bullets. thumbsup


I am also completely fine with adding more restrictions to the gunners. They need to not all be 500rd belt driven guns with the belts hidden in 50rd drums.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3560931 - 04/22/12 05:19 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Also while we are at it the gunner needs to be able to use the 2d instruments for the clock, compass as well as be given access to some more advanced instruments like a pocket altimeter and Anemometer as well as access to the flare pistol.

Generally speaking the gunner needs to be able to navigate the plane and give enough information to the pilot inside the bombsite so that he does not have to jump in and out of the site. I would prefer even more if the gunner (where appropriate) did the bombsite but I dont think that is possible at the moment.

Maybe release a field mod pack for the gunners that gives them access to some extra instruments. They do need at least the clock and compass though in the 2d instruments.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3560984 - 04/22/12 07:11 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master
I have bought the game (iron cross and a few cl2/dfw/gothas) for about 20 people the last 2 months and each one has pretty much walked away from the game over their hatred of the tail gunners. No one wants to gun for them because the gunner position is so unintuitive.


Hmmm, that sounds like hyperbole to me.... - Do your friends only want to be gunners? - They don't actually fly the planes?


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#3561000 - 04/22/12 07:48 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Out of the 17 copies I have bought the only people who have stayed are the people who also fly fighters. I cant get the rest to play or buy more planes because they don't feel that the tail gunners are useful. The AI is bunk and gunning for someone is a lesson in patience because of the listed reasons. The bombers are just not fun to fly by yourself and if none of your friends want to gun for you then you are left with random strangers who tend to reenact scenes from Indiana Jones movies more than they help.

Flying a bomber is a community experience. That is why you had large warbirds, aces high and il2 bomber squads. They enjoyed flying and gunning for each other. A 2 hour flight is nothing when you have friends on TS to joke with but if you remove the gunners through a poor experience then you remove the bombers. That is just the nature of the beast. Many of these people dont like fighters and dont want to fly a plane with the AI gunners.



That is 6 people who wont play rise of flight and who wont buy the bombers or 2 seaters because of issues with the gunners. I have other keys (second amazon account, fspilotshop, and paypal so people can buy straight from rof.com) I bought as well and most of them feel the same way. I cant even get them to play a game I bought for them because the bomber experience is so poor and the only real complaint I hear is the abysmal gunner support. They dont want to fly alone and no one wants to gun so they dont even log into the game.

On the plus side the people who like fighters love the game and I can normally get them to fly 2 seaters and bombers or at least escort me.

If I knew 777 studios was willing to revisit the gunner model and I had a reasonable price I would be more than willing to donate money to get the gunner model changed. If I cant donate I could at least buy x amount of plane gifts or ice keys and give them out.

*maybe I am just being irrational about this and it isn't worth wasting time on. Personally I feel the gunner is a core feature that is broken and needs fixing. I also know of a lot of other people who feel the same way.

Last edited by Master; 04/22/12 07:56 PM.

And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3561018 - 04/22/12 08:36 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Guns aim just fine if you don't put your cheek on the sight.

#3561146 - 04/23/12 01:56 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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So it works just fine as long as you dont look down the site.

That is pretty much an acknowledgment that it is broken.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3561185 - 04/23/12 03:30 AM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I don't know if it's broken or not, but I'm pretty certain that observers were not able to hold their head directly behind the sight as they fired at all angles. The "nestle up" view is pretty arcade.

#3561313 - 04/23/12 12:21 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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How exactly do you want the gunner controls changed?

I agree that the system is broken to a degree but if anything MP people seem to want gunning from the back seat to be made harder rather than easier. If you take away the current limitations on movement speed then gunning from the flexi mounts will be very very easy. I suppose you could increase the dipersion to extreme levels then people will just complain they can't hit anything.

What I would like to see is

1) The traverse problem fixed, where you get stuck facing front and have to press F5 to re-set.
2) A "brace" key added. Meaning that if you don't sit down when your plane goes close to inverted then you risk falling out.


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#3561341 - 04/23/12 01:22 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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Quote:
I propose that the "wasd" keys control the ring movement directly a and d would turn the ring left and right and the ring would swivel freely instead of locking up after 40X degrees of rotation. The a and d keys would control the verticle height adjustment at a slower speed (while locking the gun movement so that you cant adjust the hight and still shoot the gun.) Then the mouse would control the gun directly as if in a first person shooter. There would also need to be some dispersion added for any sort of g-force from the pilot.


I want to control the gun directly. Imagine playing a fps where the gun lags 1/2-1 seconds behind your mouse movements. No one likes that and I cant for the life of me figure out why its acceptable in rof. Using a real ring mount is no where near as hard as using the in game system.

I am not saying to speed up the ring movement either just make it so that the player controls when it moves and how much. There are a few problems with the current system because the ring movement is 1) limited to 270 degrees of movement and 2) automatic depending on where the gun is facing.

The first limitation can obviously be fixed somehow because the gun can already make an unlimited turn. If you reach the limit all you have to do is turn the other direction fast enough and the gun will turn opposite how you turned.

the second limitation has to do with the automatic movement system. There are times when a place is sitting behind your tail and you can reach them if you rotate the ring left or right and then face the gun there but with the current system it is not very intuitive since you can not directly move the ring.

As for accuracy and dispersion... that really should be a setting that can be altered by a server along with AI values. You are never going to find a balance where accuracy is agreed upon by everyone. To be fair though I dont think accuracy is that much of a problem. The problem I have lies in the fact that the gunner is almost unplayable and certainly not fun to use with it's current flaws.


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#3561426 - 04/23/12 04:14 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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I agree with Master. Something really needs to be done. My buddy and I love to multicrew and the machine guns are a game ruiner at preset. He gets real fed up real quick. If you nestle to the sight, it's even worse!


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#3561458 - 04/23/12 05:19 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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They know its jacked up and buggy, and they will never fix it. They either don't know how, or its too big of a coding problem to do it. Screw em, let em go the way of the dodo bird. If they aren't selling you a plane, or adding useless eye candy, they aren't interested in fixing real game play problems.

#3561495 - 04/23/12 06:18 PM Re: Fixing the tail gunners? How much? [Re: Master]  
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OK, I take your point Master. I had no idea gunning was such a big part of the game to some.


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