In August I hope to attend a reunion of the 325th Fighter group in California. I know at some point I stand a chance of speaking at reasonable length to some of them and I have already asked a lot of questions to them by email (and interviewed on camera).

However my questions may not necessarily be the one's that a community of aviation fans would be interested in so if I get a chance to ask questions (and no promises here!) is there anything you can think of that you would like to know about their service and the aircraft they flew?

Those currently expected to attend are:
P-51 Pilot's will include Barrie S. Davis (P-47 (No victories) and P-51 Ace), Art Fiedler (P-51 Ace), Jerry Edwards (P-51, P-47 and P-40 Pilot 4-Victories), Jack Sherbourne (P-51 Pilot), Tom Batey (P-51 and F-86 Sabre), Ron Dove (P-40 and P-47), Clarance Coonce (Armourer) and Ed Doss (Crew Chief).

Once again I cannot promise to ask all the questions but if there is anything that is of interest to you and I have a chance to ask the question, please post it here and I will post a link to their replies as-soon as I can after the event.

Cheers, MP

Just say thanks from your aussie friends

You going to be at Camarillo again MP?


Wheels

60/40 in favour at the moment. Finance is the issue, but I do expect to be there and it will be where I show the second (and final) part of my Checkertails Documentary, for the very first time. The video will be online about 2-3 weeks later for everyone to watch as I hope to add some footage from Camarillo

I will

Maybe ask about the adjustments they did in flying, trim use and engine management, how much was with and without much thought ... perhaps from school to rookie to veteran pilots as much as from plane to plane?

We read accounts that sometimes mention some aspects but they're not exactly flying courses.

Also gunnery questions!

Talking to Art over TS while we flew IL-2 around when we were making Checkertails part 1 was pretty cool, would love to shoot the breeze with those guys.

Did any of them like the movie "Red Tails"?

OK, OK. That may not be the best question to ask!

What were their biggest operational challenges? Maintenance, (lack of) supplies, muddy airfields, German and Italian fighter opposition, Flak, long range navigation and flying?

Be sure to also give them a "Well done" and thanks from all of us!

1) What was the training experience like?
2) What was it like to fly their particular warbird for the first time?
3) What was the first time in combat like? First kill?
4) Ever shot at? Ever shot down? Ever bail out? What were those experiences like?

Yeah that would be interesting .. From what I have learned from the WWII pilots I spoke to a lot of that is done by the seat of the pants.. and that is how it becomes instinctual.. We have no way of relating to any of that. Imagine being in a situation where you can actually become one with the plane.. because you feel every single change... from your gut to your eyes and your ears and all points in between, all working together simultaneously to give you feedback... We have none of that modelled in the sim and that's why a lot of FM talk becomes kind of moot... How much of performance tests are directly related to the strength of the tester where a stronger man might have been able to get more out of the plane.. etc etc etc

It shopuld be good though.. It'll be nice to read the feedback..

I have a couple of those answers already (first kill (Victory they prefer to call it) and also first time in combat. I will share them all once I have completed as many questions as I can.

Regarding;
"Maybe ask about the adjustments they did in flying, trim use and engine management".
I remember talking with Barrie Davis and he told me he was one of the first guys to figure out (in his FS) how to get the best fuel economy out of his P-51. A lot of the guys just set it to "Auto-Rich", but Barrie worked out how to 'Lean' the engine to the perfect point which he reckoned could give him an extra 30-minutes (or more off the top of my head, I will check) flying time, which could make a huge difference in operational range and RTB success.

Regarding:

"What were their biggest operational challenges? Maintenance, (lack of) supplies, muddy airfields, German and Italian fighter opposition, Flak, long range navigation and flying?"
I will ask on the other details but I remember Barrie also mentioned that he hated it sometimes as they flew over a heavily defended target while escorting the bombers. It wasn't so-much the Flak but he said at some points the Radar guided Flak was so thick it actually obscured their view of the Bombers. Herschel Green would often get his flight to fly through the Flak in a hope of confusing the Radar and drawing some fire away from the Bombers. Barrie wasn't too impressed by that!

1) What was the training experience like?

On the final evening of the 2009 Camarillo Airshow I was invited along to a Barbecue at Art's house, where along with Monguse, we took the chance to set up a video camera and record Art talking about some of his time in the USAAF.

That video was part of the "Checkertails" Documentary/Movie, released in 2010 and Part 2 in September 2012.

After the video interview, I asked if it was okay to leave the sound recorder running while he chatted with guests at the meal, and with a beaming smile Art said "Sure!".

You'll be glad to know that I have edited away the dead space (walking around, nothing being said, etc,etc) and left in just the conversation related to his time in the USAAF.

Covered in this audio file are P-47 gunnery training, P-51 wing snapping (or lack of it), engine noise, flames on exhausts, weapon and tracer load-out, the use of long range fuel tanks as weapons, plus many other topics.

Asking most of the questions is myself, but the other voices you will here are 325th_Swoop and Monguse (he comes in right at the end asking about P-51 markings).

Guys, the audio you will hear was all recorded at a Barbecue, so there is background noise going on, but Art was fully mic'd up so when he and I talk, all the voices are very clear and the background chatter is just ambient.

The file is just under 30-minutes long, and is compressed in mp3 format, and is 26mb in file-size.

I hope you enjoy listening to Art talk about some of his incidents as much as those gathered there did, he truly is a remarkable man and it was a real honour to spend time talking with him.

The audio starts as 325th_Swoop has just told me he is 62-years old and is learning to fly a Helicopter. Art then comes over and the conversation gets going.

BTW Swoop didn't look a day under 62 (kidding..he must have had an easy life!)

http://www.mediafire.com/?mywjimzwgjm

Cheers, MP

Hearing about trim use, perhaps by plane, how often it was done, how important it was to do and if there was any thought --- in unambiguous terms might answer the "my plane doesn't fly right" players.

Of course IL-2 isn't perfect and 4.11 needs some work but I know I've seen combat flight sims come a long way since even the mid-90's just to the first IL-2.

Just wondering.. will these guys know you fly prop combat flight sims?

They do

We took a Laptop (Monguse and I) over to CA and while there showed the Pilots their aircraft marked up with their paint-schemes. At one point Barrie Davis was so impressed he went home, installed the software (IL2), took his P-51 up for a spin...and bellied in on the runway....much to his embarrassment!

Cheers, MP

Awesome experiences MP. It sounds like some of the 'real' guys appreciate it, too.

My questions.
1) Was it ever 'fun'? Sounds wrong and shallow I know, but sometimes you come across veterans of combat who enjoyed the thing, or at least the spectacle.
2) How well did training prepare them for the real thing? By that stage of the war, US pilots were logging serious hours but even so, it must be a vastly different thing to find yourself in combat, especially against the LW's veterans.
3)Again, sounds shallow, but did the real guys ever have (or even notice) favourite paintschemes? For us players, the right looking skin can make such a difference, so how was it for them?
4)Were they motivated by patriotism, a sense of duty, a hatred of the enemy, a desire for adventure, material gain, chicks or all of the above?
5) Knowing what they know now, would they do it again?

Hi FSM, re:

"3)Again, sounds shallow, but did the real guys ever have (or even notice) favourite paintschemes?"

That reminds me of a great story by Barrie Davis who loved the paint-scheme used (I think I am right in saying) on a P-51 in "Terry and the Pirates" which had Red striping all down the sides.

Barrie and his Crew Chief spent a day painting his aircraft up and was really pleased with the finished result. The next day he had to take all the paint off (his CC was not happy) as he was due to take part in "Operation Frantic" and all the aircraft needed unit markings only!

Re:

"4)Were they motivated by patriotism, a sense of duty, a hatred of the enemy, a desire for adventure, material gain, chicks or all of the above?"

I will ask of-course, but I heard from two or three that it was more about taking revenge for Pearl Harbour more than anything that 'made' them sign up so that they could get back at the enemy. I'm not sure if Europe was what they were thinking of at the time, so it's worth me asking for sure! Cheers. MP

No questions. Just tell them I said thank you for their service and all they and their friends sacrificed and gave to help those they would never meet and never know. Without them and thousands like them, Hitler would have succeeded. So from the bottom of my heart. Thank you.

Regarding trim here's an excerpt from Bud Anderson's "He Was Someone Who Was Trying to Kill Me, Is All"



However, as a virtual bomber pilot I would like to know if there was a standard procedure for escorting bombers, i.e. to the top rear, to the sides, etc.

Thanks

I asked Art Fiedler, P-51 Ace of the 317th FS - 325th FG a question about Escort duty and positions. I'll include my two question and his two answers.....he's a brilliant guy!


MP: Now, apart from the race-track pattern, I have seen a 'cross-weave' where the Fighters effectively make a repeating figure of eight shape (almost like plaited hair) above the bombers. Was there a standard procedure for escorting bombers, i.e. to the top rear, to the sides?

Art: During my tour, I had not encountered e/a coming up from below but starting in July/August (?) we found that occasionally they would do so. If you perform a race track pattern, usually you go up one side and down the other. With the cross weave, you essentially are over the same general area. Be aware that we wanted our escort speed to be 350 mph true which is considerably faster than the bombers so whatever escort pattern you used, you had to adjust the pattern to do what you want...stay over the same group, cover a couple of Groups, etc. Be aware that bombers usually flew 3 squardrons to a group. Seven per squadron, about 25 - 30 for the Group. And rather than a figure eight shape, I think you will find that the fighters crossed the bombers at an angle, turned in the direction the bombers were going, crossed at about the same angle, again turned in the direction the bombers are going, etc. Looking at the pattern above, it resembles more a sine wave than figure 8. Remember the length of their legs must be adjusted for how they want the pattern to develop....stay above a certain section, gradually move to head of Group, gradually move to rear of Group, and always adjust to do what you want. Incidentally at high altitude, a lot of turning tends to spread the aircraft apart. I think that degrades the ability to look around which is one of the reasons I preferred the race track pattern.


MP: Would you mind if memory serves you; Can you tell me if there were any other types of Escort pattern? Who would give the order to break formation if the enemy came into range....was it a 'free-for-all' as I remember you saying that as soon as Herky saw an enemy in range...whoosh, he was gone! Was the leader the only one allowed to do this, or did each echelon have the opportunity?

Art: I think I have covered the types of escort patterns above. Again I am not sure we did this in the best manner. If a pilot saw e/a attacking a friendly, he was allowed to call them out and go. Most new pilots would just call them out and let the leader give the order. Usually the first thing we heard was, "Drop tanks!" All eyes would then be fastened on the leader. When it was Herky and the e/a were below us, he would push the stick forward briskly and the next thing all 16 aircraft were going down vertically, still in the same general formation. As soon as we drew near the e/a things tended to dissolve with each flight either following the leader or picking out some e/a for them to hit. At times when it was just a bird or two, Herky might "forget" to give any verbal order and go for it himself. That way you do not usually have too many guys claiming the same bird!! I think we could have been more effective if the leader would have told each flight what to do because often we had as many as 12 birds chasing one e/a while the others were getting away because the leader said nothing.


Pretty good information?

Cheers, MP

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I found the last sentence in Art Fiedler's answer very interesting:

"I think we could have been more effective if the leader would have told each flight what to do because often we had as many as 12 birds chasing one e/a while the others were getting away because the leader said nothing."

Sound familiar? We sometimes see this activity from the AI in IL-2 and complain that it's so 'unreal'. It's interesting that it happened in real life too.

Aviar

No problem Aviar.

I think one of the points to remember was that these were young men, all wanting to add to their victory count, and later in the war, there were many missions where they flew 'milk runs' because there were very little enemy left to engage with. So if an enemy turned up, they wanted to prove themselves in combat and the only way they could do it was to take a chance that one of the others would miss out and they could then try their own luck?

Usually online, there are plenty of targets to choose from, it's just some players don't want to be part of a team and will shoulder shoot all day long