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#3551117 - 04/05/12 03:53 PM .50 Browning in game effectiveness  
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Greybeard Offline
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On the contrary of what shown by above diagram (from Anthony Williams data - "Power" takes in account both kinetic energy and, where applicable, explosive capacity), I find in game power of Browning M2 the lowest among 12.7 mm. I never was able to explode or tear off in pieces any EA by this weapon and kills appear always "hard", even with P-47 firepower. Instead, Ho-103 seems in game the most powerful of this calibre. Is there any tweaking? If yes, why?

GB

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#3551384 - 04/05/12 08:41 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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There have been revisions in the UP Mod addressing this. AFIK, officially, there's no problem. It will be interesting to see where this goes since this subject has been beaten to death over the years.


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#3551474 - 04/05/12 10:49 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Whats your testing methodology in game?

My feeling is the Berezin UB is the most powerful, with the Browning .50cal in close second, the MG131 and Ho103 essentially tied (I wouldn't be surprised if the Ho103 values are copy/pasted from the MG131 due to a lack of references for the Japanese gun), and the Breda below that.

The only issue I have with the Browning is the bonkers belting. It has a mysterious HE round in the mix and a lack of API rounds although from what I'm told by several who play with HSFX with the updated .50cal belting, not much changes when you go to that version.

As for snapping wings off... it happens less with the .50cal but it does happen. It almost never happens when fired from a dead 6 position. Instead it's the high or low pass attacks where I see major structural loss like a wing or fuselage. It also is highly dependent on the aircraft I'm shooting at. Zeros and Oscars will dewing with ease. FW190s will not so easily.. usually he's a flaming wreck before I get a wing off. Bf109s I tend to see a equal mix of tail failure and wing failure when hitting them with .50cals but it again tends to be more fire damage that gets them.

Many of the complaints over the years with the .50cal have been justified but some have not. I think there is a certain expectation fed by cherry picked gun camera sequences and over exaggerated combat reports. Just a few years later in the Korean war, pilots complained about the upgraded M3 .50cal not doing enough damage to down MiG-15s. I realize the MiG-15 is a different kettle of fish from a FW190 but it's interesting how quickly opinion soured on the weapon.

Last edited by IceFire; 04/05/12 10:53 PM.

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#3551646 - 04/06/12 08:46 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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It depends on where you got your value for "power". As from below, the Olegish; power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

IL-2 models ballistics and strike angle and explosion and shrapnel, not just 1 number for kinetic and explosive power.

So they are saying that a Browning 50 cal HE bullet has equivalent of 1.48g TNT. Have any docs that say different?

Quote:


Author:
Oleg_Maddox
Rank:
Creator of IL-2
Sturmovik
Date:
08/14/02 12:56PM





Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2.
Comments:

power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).

T - Tracer bullet
AP - Armor-Piercing bullet
APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer
API - Armor-Piercing Incendary
APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer
HE - High-Explosive shell
HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell
HET - High-Explosive with Tracer
HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer
MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive

such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets:
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API


Table itself.
==========================


Browning .303
// APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API

API/APIT
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0.0018

AP
mass = 0.010668491403778
speed = 835.0
power = 0

Browning .50
// APIT - AP - HE - AP

APIT
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.002

AP
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0

HE
mass = 0.0485
speed = 870.0
power = 0.00148

Hispano-Suiza Mk.I
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.129
speed = 860.0
power = 0.012

AP
mass = 0.124
speed = 860.0
power = 0

M4
// HET - (APT/HET)

HET
mass = 0.604
speed = 612.0
power = 0.044

MG 131
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.035
speed = 710.0
power = 0.00148

AP
mass = 0.034
speed = 750.0
power = 0

MG 15
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.0128
speed = 760.0
power = 0

MG 151
// HET - AP - HE - AP

HE/HET
mass = 0.057
speed = 960.0
power = 0.0019

AP
mass = 0.072
speed = 859.0
power = 0

MG 151/20
// APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG
APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 710.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 705.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 775.0
power = 0.0186

MG 17
// AP - AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 810.0
power = 0

MG 81
// AP - APT

AP/APT
mass = 0.010
speed = 920.0
power = 0

MG/FF
// APIT - HE - HE - MG

APIT
mass = 0.115
speed = 580.0
power = 0.0036

HE
mass = 0.115
speed = 585.0
power = 0.0044

MG
mass = 0.092
speed = 690.0
power = 0.0186

MK 103
// APT - MG - MG - HE

APT
mass = 0.502
speed = 752.0
power = 0.0

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 900.0
power = 0.072

HE
mass = 0.455
speed = 800.0
power = 0.024

MK 108
// HEIT - MG

HEIT
mass = 0.455
speed = 500.0
power = 0.024

MG
mass = 0.330
speed = 525.0
power = 0.072

NS-37
// HEIT - APT

HEIT
mass = 0.735
speed = 900.0
power = 0.0406

APT
mass = 0.760
speed = 880.0
power = 0

NS-45
// HEIT - AP

HEIT
mass = 1.065
speed = 780.0
power = 0.052

AP
mass = 1.000
speed = 850.0
power = 0.0

PaK40
// HEIT

HEIT
mass = 6.800
speed = 770.0
power = 0.680

ShKAS
// APIT - API - T - API

APIT
mass = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0.0005

API
mass = 0.0096
speed = 871.0
power = 0.0005

T
massa = 0.0096
speed = 869.0
power = 0

ShVAK
// APIT - HE

APIT
mass = 0.096
speed = 800.0
power = 0.001

HE
mass = 0.0676
speed = 800.0
power = 0.0068

UBS / UBT
// APIT - AP - HEI

APIT
mass = 0.0448
speed = 850.0
power = 0.001

AP
mass = 0.051
speed = 850.0
power = 0

HEI
mass = 0.0428
speed = 850.0
power = (0.00114+0.00128)

VYa
// SIT - API - API

SIT
mass = 0.195
speed = 890.0
power = 0.0156

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008

API
mass = 0.201
speed = 890.0
power = 0.008


-------------

If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.




Oleg Maddox
1C:Maddox Games

#3551663 - 04/06/12 10:12 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.

Cheers,
GB

Last edited by Greybeard; 04/06/12 05:53 PM.
#3552109 - 04/07/12 12:33 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Originally Posted By: Greybeard
According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.

Cheers,
GB

Why do you say any of that? The MG131 has a distinct set of entries from the M2. I don't see anything significant shared.

As for the Breda and the Ho-103 none of those are on this list because this list is from 2002... a couple of years before those machine guns were added to the game. We've never gotten a more updated list from Oleg or anyone else.

There are some guns that are functionally substituted but not the ones listed here.


- IceFire
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#3552164 - 04/07/12 03:36 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Again, straight from Oleg,

Quote:
power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).


If you dig in SFS, guess what company wrote the labels? You put your own meaning on the labels, mistakes you find are likely your own.

Note in Oleg's Table that 131 has different data than the M2. Then note that different shells of the same gun may be different.

My juice carton says it's made from concentrate. Is that because someone thought hard about juice?

#3552210 - 04/07/12 09:07 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Obsolete data, PICES of shells, juice carton... Sorry guys, I can't understand much of what you are saying.

Let's try to do base reasoning. Any DAMAGE is caused by an ENERGY. This is modeled in sims giving a value to energy of shell. If nobody knows energy numbers for guns (that's to say their projectiles) in IL-2, nobody can demonstrate that one gun is more or less powerful of another. Hope at least this can be shared.

#3552250 - 04/07/12 11:48 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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That note is from Oleg Maddox who didn't have to -guess- at how IL-2 works.

Look at the table. For each shell there is mass, muzzle velocity and (explosive) power.

The trajectories and slowing of projectiles is part of the game.
The angle of hit and relative velocities of projectile and target are part of the Damage Model calculations.

ENERGY.... KE and momentum happen at the hit, after the shot has slowed down a bit by air drag. Mass and Velocity, not majik number.
ENERGY.... TNT equivalent explosive power includes incendiary mix. Short name: power.

No need to guess, it was told years ago. It was told over and over down to specifics between Oleg-posts and patch update info, often with nice graphics, when the detail level was raised.

Have you ever run track playback with config set arcade=1?

#3552293 - 04/07/12 02:08 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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I found arcade=1 very illuminating when I first set that up. Definitely shows some of the behind the scenes actions and the distinct differences between types of shells impacting on a target.

Greybeard: Just to be clear... this data is old. The values are still relevant and the lines for each gun represent what is happening in the damage model. It gives us a clear idea of how much punch (kinetic and explosive) each shell in the belting for each gun does. We don't know a few of the specifics for the damage model in how they all interact but the bottom line is that all are judged by the same model. Whats less clear is some of the weapons that were added in the years after 2002 when this data was presented.

Last edited by IceFire; 04/07/12 02:09 PM.

- IceFire
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#3552323 - 04/07/12 03:39 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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OK. Let's see if I've understood. Using same criteria by Anthony Williams (see article HERE), I get following diagram, where his actual values are compared with Oleg's one:



Pretty similar.

Complete table follows:



I think William's values show some inconsistencies, although generally valid.

Would be interesting to get also Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103 data now. Neal, are you still in touch with Oleg?

#3552331 - 04/07/12 03:49 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Better to ask Team Daidalos than Oleg at this point. Oleg isn't really involved in any direct capacity with Cliffs of Dover and future additions either.


- IceFire
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#3552525 - 04/07/12 11:59 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Oleg answered questions on forums and through emails for a surprising amount of time given the crap he took.
I last got a personal answer maybe as late as 2007.

Oleg moved on to other business, maybe 2010. Find Luthier over on the banana forum instead.

I used to remember posts demanding Oleg to reveal all the parts and workings of the FM just so they could verify them. Demanded. As in one company's IP behind their sole product should become open source to satisfy a demand.

And the ones making the demands? None qualified in aerodynamics, and a few who had trouble with squares and roots and science in general but read books and have charts and know how these planes should fly... just like in the last sim they modded of course!

Anyone remember Stiglr and Targetware?

PS -- SimHQ has had articles on IL-2 since it hit. I dunno how far the archives go back but between interviews and feature articles there should be a fair glimpse into game workings without giving too much away.

Last edited by Neal; 04/08/12 12:07 AM.
#3552561 - 04/08/12 01:55 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Neal]  
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Originally Posted By: Neal
Anyone remember Stiglr and Targetware?


Why yes. Apparently he got around because he was headliner over in the Strike Fighters forum years back as well. hahaha


It's a Game. smile
#3552567 - 04/08/12 02:34 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Infamous smile

There was that guy, the Ta183 fan, the 20+ page .50cal thread, the 30+ page MG151/20 thread, the countless FW190 bar threads... old times, not particularly good times either. Glad we got those out of the way smile


- IceFire
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#3552683 - 04/08/12 12:24 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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Just be happy you've not seen any F-86 vs MiG-15 doghouse charts.

#3553042 - 04/09/12 03:12 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Neal]  
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Originally Posted By: Neal
Just be happy you've not seen any F-86 vs MiG-15 doghouse charts.


I'm terrified smile


- IceFire
Find my missions at Mission4Today.
#3554056 - 04/10/12 10:10 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: IceFire]  
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Originally Posted By: IceFire
Whats your testing methodology in game?
Many of the complaints over the years with the .50cal have been justified but some have not. I think there is a certain expectation fed by cherry picked gun camera sequences and over exaggerated combat reports. Just a few years later in the Korean war, pilots complained about the upgraded M3 .50cal not doing enough damage to down MiG-15s. I realize the MiG-15 is a different kettle of fish from a FW190 but it's interesting how quickly opinion soured on the weapon.


Not sure why but later on, the 'victory/damage quotient' against MiG 15s began to improve (at least for the Sabers)---it could be better ammo "mix", better sight, getting closer or just the ability to get more hits on the target due to experience

#3554181 - 04/11/12 02:15 AM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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One wingmate wrote that his leader took an 800 yard shot at some high alt and made it. The leader knew the extra thin air would make the shot possible.

Look at the guns on the MiG. That's what kind to bring to the jet party. Golf-ball shooters!

#3554281 - 04/11/12 12:27 PM Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness [Re: Greybeard]  
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I was trying to remember what on earth I did with the year 2006. Thanks for reminding me: I spent it reading threads like this.


Dozer
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