#3551474 - 04/05/12 10:49 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Sep 2002
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IceFire
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Whats your testing methodology in game?
My feeling is the Berezin UB is the most powerful, with the Browning .50cal in close second, the MG131 and Ho103 essentially tied (I wouldn't be surprised if the Ho103 values are copy/pasted from the MG131 due to a lack of references for the Japanese gun), and the Breda below that.
The only issue I have with the Browning is the bonkers belting. It has a mysterious HE round in the mix and a lack of API rounds although from what I'm told by several who play with HSFX with the updated .50cal belting, not much changes when you go to that version.
As for snapping wings off... it happens less with the .50cal but it does happen. It almost never happens when fired from a dead 6 position. Instead it's the high or low pass attacks where I see major structural loss like a wing or fuselage. It also is highly dependent on the aircraft I'm shooting at. Zeros and Oscars will dewing with ease. FW190s will not so easily.. usually he's a flaming wreck before I get a wing off. Bf109s I tend to see a equal mix of tail failure and wing failure when hitting them with .50cals but it again tends to be more fire damage that gets them.
Many of the complaints over the years with the .50cal have been justified but some have not. I think there is a certain expectation fed by cherry picked gun camera sequences and over exaggerated combat reports. Just a few years later in the Korean war, pilots complained about the upgraded M3 .50cal not doing enough damage to down MiG-15s. I realize the MiG-15 is a different kettle of fish from a FW190 but it's interesting how quickly opinion soured on the weapon.
Last edited by IceFire; 04/05/12 10:53 PM.
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#3551646 - 04/06/12 08:46 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Neal
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It depends on where you got your value for "power". As from below, the Olegish; power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells). IL-2 models ballistics and strike angle and explosion and shrapnel, not just 1 number for kinetic and explosive power. So they are saying that a Browning 50 cal HE bullet has equivalent of 1.48g TNT. Have any docs that say different?
Author: Oleg_Maddox Rank: Creator of IL-2 Sturmovik Date: 08/14/02 12:56PM
Here is the direct table of shells and bullets from source code of IL-2. Comments:
power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells).
T - Tracer bullet AP - Armor-Piercing bullet APT - Armor-Piercing with Tracer API - Armor-Piercing Incendary APIT - Armor-Piercing Incendary Tracer HE - High-Explosive shell HEI - High-Explosive Incendary shell HET - High-Explosive with Tracer HEIT - High-Explosive Incendary Tracer MG - M-Geschoss, thin-shell High Explosive
such line destinated the sequence of shells/bullets: // APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
Table itself. ==========================
Browning .303 // APIT - AP - AP - APIT - API - API
API/APIT mass = 0.010668491403778 speed = 835.0 power = 0.0018
AP mass = 0.010668491403778 speed = 835.0 power = 0
Browning .50 // APIT - AP - HE - AP
APIT mass = 0.0485 speed = 870.0 power = 0.002
AP mass = 0.0485 speed = 870.0 power = 0
HE mass = 0.0485 speed = 870.0 power = 0.00148
Hispano-Suiza Mk.I // HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET mass = 0.129 speed = 860.0 power = 0.012
AP mass = 0.124 speed = 860.0 power = 0
M4 // HET - (APT/HET)
HET mass = 0.604 speed = 612.0 power = 0.044
MG 131 // HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET mass = 0.035 speed = 710.0 power = 0.00148
AP mass = 0.034 speed = 750.0 power = 0
MG 15 // AP - AP - APT
AP/APT mass = 0.0128 speed = 760.0 power = 0
MG 151 // HET - AP - HE - AP
HE/HET mass = 0.057 speed = 960.0 power = 0.0019
AP mass = 0.072 speed = 859.0 power = 0
MG 151/20 // APIT - HE - HE - MG - MG APIT mass = 0.115 speed = 710.0 power = 0.0036
HE mass = 0.115 speed = 705.0 power = 0.0044
MG mass = 0.092 speed = 775.0 power = 0.0186
MG 17 // AP - AP - APT
AP/APT mass = 0.010 speed = 810.0 power = 0
MG 81 // AP - APT
AP/APT mass = 0.010 speed = 920.0 power = 0
MG/FF // APIT - HE - HE - MG
APIT mass = 0.115 speed = 580.0 power = 0.0036
HE mass = 0.115 speed = 585.0 power = 0.0044
MG mass = 0.092 speed = 690.0 power = 0.0186
MK 103 // APT - MG - MG - HE
APT mass = 0.502 speed = 752.0 power = 0.0
MG mass = 0.330 speed = 900.0 power = 0.072
HE mass = 0.455 speed = 800.0 power = 0.024
MK 108 // HEIT - MG
HEIT mass = 0.455 speed = 500.0 power = 0.024
MG mass = 0.330 speed = 525.0 power = 0.072
NS-37 // HEIT - APT
HEIT mass = 0.735 speed = 900.0 power = 0.0406
APT mass = 0.760 speed = 880.0 power = 0
NS-45 // HEIT - AP
HEIT mass = 1.065 speed = 780.0 power = 0.052
AP mass = 1.000 speed = 850.0 power = 0.0
PaK40 // HEIT
HEIT mass = 6.800 speed = 770.0 power = 0.680
ShKAS // APIT - API - T - API
APIT mass = 0.0096 speed = 869.0 power = 0.0005
API mass = 0.0096 speed = 871.0 power = 0.0005
T massa = 0.0096 speed = 869.0 power = 0
ShVAK // APIT - HE
APIT mass = 0.096 speed = 800.0 power = 0.001
HE mass = 0.0676 speed = 800.0 power = 0.0068
UBS / UBT // APIT - AP - HEI
APIT mass = 0.0448 speed = 850.0 power = 0.001
AP mass = 0.051 speed = 850.0 power = 0
HEI mass = 0.0428 speed = 850.0 power = (0.00114+0.00128)
VYa // SIT - API - API
SIT mass = 0.195 speed = 890.0 power = 0.0156
API mass = 0.201 speed = 890.0 power = 0.008
API mass = 0.201 speed = 890.0 power = 0.008
-------------
If you'll ask why some bullets has TNT, its because they had explosive in warhead.
Oleg Maddox 1C:Maddox Games
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#3551663 - 04/06/12 10:12 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: May 2004
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Greybeard
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According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.
Cheers, GB
Last edited by Greybeard; 04/06/12 05:53 PM.
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#3552109 - 04/07/12 12:33 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Sep 2002
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IceFire
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According to list posted by Neal, it looks there are only two true 12.7 mm in IL-2 inventory: M2 and UB, plus the similar MG131. Since M2 and MG131 are listed having same "power" (at least about HE/HEI shell), I think there are only two 12.7 mm guns modeled in game: M2, simulating also MG131 and UB, placed also in lieu of Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103. If so, I believe this would explain many odd things... Thanks, Neil for the tip.
Cheers, GB Why do you say any of that? The MG131 has a distinct set of entries from the M2. I don't see anything significant shared. As for the Breda and the Ho-103 none of those are on this list because this list is from 2002... a couple of years before those machine guns were added to the game. We've never gotten a more updated list from Oleg or anyone else. There are some guns that are functionally substituted but not the ones listed here.
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#3552164 - 04/07/12 03:36 AM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Neal
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Again, straight from Oleg, power - here is the TNT, that also modelled (as well as pices of shells). If you dig in SFS, guess what company wrote the labels? You put your own meaning on the labels, mistakes you find are likely your own. Note in Oleg's Table that 131 has different data than the M2. Then note that different shells of the same gun may be different. My juice carton says it's made from concentrate. Is that because someone thought hard about juice?
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#3552293 - 04/07/12 02:08 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Sep 2002
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IceFire
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I found arcade=1 very illuminating when I first set that up. Definitely shows some of the behind the scenes actions and the distinct differences between types of shells impacting on a target.
Greybeard: Just to be clear... this data is old. The values are still relevant and the lines for each gun represent what is happening in the damage model. It gives us a clear idea of how much punch (kinetic and explosive) each shell in the belting for each gun does. We don't know a few of the specifics for the damage model in how they all interact but the bottom line is that all are judged by the same model. Whats less clear is some of the weapons that were added in the years after 2002 when this data was presented.
Last edited by IceFire; 04/07/12 02:09 PM.
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#3552323 - 04/07/12 03:39 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Greybeard
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OK. Let's see if I've understood. Using same criteria by Anthony Williams (see article HERE), I get following diagram, where his actual values are compared with Oleg's one: Pretty similar. Complete table follows: I think William's values show some inconsistencies, although generally valid. Would be interesting to get also Breda-SAFAT and Ho-103 data now. Neal, are you still in touch with Oleg?
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#3552525 - 04/07/12 11:59 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Neal
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Oleg answered questions on forums and through emails for a surprising amount of time given the crap he took. I last got a personal answer maybe as late as 2007.
Oleg moved on to other business, maybe 2010. Find Luthier over on the banana forum instead.
I used to remember posts demanding Oleg to reveal all the parts and workings of the FM just so they could verify them. Demanded. As in one company's IP behind their sole product should become open source to satisfy a demand.
And the ones making the demands? None qualified in aerodynamics, and a few who had trouble with squares and roots and science in general but read books and have charts and know how these planes should fly... just like in the last sim they modded of course!
Anyone remember Stiglr and Targetware?
PS -- SimHQ has had articles on IL-2 since it hit. I dunno how far the archives go back but between interviews and feature articles there should be a fair glimpse into game workings without giving too much away.
Last edited by Neal; 04/08/12 12:07 AM.
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#3554056 - 04/10/12 10:10 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: IceFire]
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Joined: Jan 2001
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FilthyApe1961
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Whats your testing methodology in game? Many of the complaints over the years with the .50cal have been justified but some have not. I think there is a certain expectation fed by cherry picked gun camera sequences and over exaggerated combat reports. Just a few years later in the Korean war, pilots complained about the upgraded M3 .50cal not doing enough damage to down MiG-15s. I realize the MiG-15 is a different kettle of fish from a FW190 but it's interesting how quickly opinion soured on the weapon. Not sure why but later on, the 'victory/damage quotient' against MiG 15s began to improve (at least for the Sabers)---it could be better ammo "mix", better sight, getting closer or just the ability to get more hits on the target due to experience
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#3554281 - 04/11/12 12:27 PM
Re: .50 Browning in game effectiveness
[Re: Greybeard]
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Dozer
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I was trying to remember what on earth I did with the year 2006. Thanks for reminding me: I spent it reading threads like this.
Dozer
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