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#3541372 - 03/19/12 03:22 PM Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels"  
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Lion Offline
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When the player make a call for assistance, does the mission simply vector any aircraft with ordnance toward the player, or do I have to set them to alert intercept?

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#3541466 - 03/19/12 05:59 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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If I understand the dynamics correctly, a call for assistance will prompt fighter aircraft on CAP and within the set CAP range to be vectored to you. Fighter aircraft with a specific target or mission, ie CAS, Anti-Ship, Bomb Target, will not respond.
Alert Intercept only works for aircraft waiting to take off. If they detect a threat within the set range, they will take off and engage it. Alert Intercept can be greatly enhanced by putting a radar site near the Alert Intercept aircraft.
I have never tried to confirm in a Fighter Sweep aircraft would respond to a call for assistance. But now you have my curiosity up. I hope this helps.
Watch your six,
Shadow

#3541492 - 03/19/12 06:43 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Shadow's correct on all counts.....these reads are getting me antzy

#3541526 - 03/19/12 07:22 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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...keep in mind that AI are pretty BAD at the Wild Weasel/SEAD tasks. Often in building a mission with a Strike Package I would put an element for SEAD ahead of the group, and likely as not, they would, at worst, get shot down by ground fire and at best, take out a few AAA sites. Not sure they use Anti-Radiation missiles very well, and tend to want to get up close and personal with cluster bombs.

They are much better at the CAP/Sweep duties or even point ground attacks. If you want an AI flight to do specific SEAD tasks, it is better to give them specific targets with a BOMB TARGET action, but again, I don't think they will use HARM very well even in that case.

I would save the Weasel/SEAD role for the Player's flight, as the AI will do a better job if you micromanage them in your own flight than when they are fully autonomous, and a Human loaded with HARM can do a lot of damage!!

One thing to remember about ALERT INTERCEPT flights too, is to give them PLENTY response radius (hence having an EWR radar nearby). Incoming flights travelling at 400 knots will be covering ~6 nm/minute, so if the ALERT INTERCEPT radius is 50 miles and it takes the aircraft 5 minutes to get airborne from the alert, the enemies will already be within 20 nm of the base which doesn't leave much room for comfort.

Also, IIRC, Alert Intercept aircraft will be INVISIBLE if you happen to look at the airfield they are stationed at. They will appear and launch when the Alert is triggered. If you use Takeoff Actions instead, with a trigger from an Area Event, the Alert Birds will be seen idling on the runway.


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#3541553 - 03/19/12 08:06 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Thanks Shadow and Recluse! biggrin

#3541893 - 03/20/12 11:57 AM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Recluse]  
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Timc Offline
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I agree. Thanks, Shadow and Recluse.

#3541897 - 03/20/12 12:14 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Ripcord Offline
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Recluse brings up a good point. The way to use AI SEAD Packages effectively is to use a combinations of commands at 2 separate consecutive waypoints.

Set the first wp to issue the BOMB TARGET command, which allows you to select a specific SAM launcher or (even better) SAM radar and assign one to each member of the SEAD package. Be sure they go after SAM/AAA if you want them to fire the HARM, and place the wp at an acceptable range -- this may require a bit of testing.

Then use your SEAD command on the very next wp. Again they should be close enough to find/detect emitters but don't have them fly right at the target air defenses.... I try to send them in at an offset so they are just a bit closer in at this point. Again, a little testing here goes a long way.

Of course, all this is up to the mission builder and your actual mileage may vary.

Ripcord

EDIT: I always tried to build my campaign missions so that we had a couple dedicated missions to hit SAM radars using JSOW, launching them about 25,000 ft. That worked well, and most often it made the rest of the theater manageable for follow on missions, with the magic of damage tracking. You could adapt this approach for your AI SEAD -- send in a separate package of 2 aircraft with standoff weapons, like JSOW or SLAM-ER, and use those with the BOMB TARGET command. Those will make the SAM radars lite up, and it should make your SEAD flight use their HARM loads more effectively. Try it out.

Last edited by Ripcord; 03/20/12 12:22 PM.

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#3542539 - 03/21/12 11:59 AM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Good info, Ripcord!! Makes me want to get back into the F/A-18 scene. I think I have already forgotten most of what I used to know!!

Been flying various flavors of modded Third Wire Series 1 (Strike Fighters, WOE) and having lots of fun...but whenever I run up against the various limitations in both the 3rd Party Mission Builder and the sim itself, I always wonder why I don't just fire up F/A-18 again!!


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#3542559 - 03/21/12 12:44 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Recluse]  
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Thanks, Ripcord and Recluse. This is good information and an excellent discussion. I am copying your posts to my JF-18 knowledge base.

Timc

#3542616 - 03/21/12 02:28 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Lion Offline
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I will definitely try the BOMB TARGET command.

However, regarding AI HARM usage, I have seen a flight of 8 Superbugs ripple HARMs off in succession at the first radar emitters they come across, break off and come around. Conversely, I have also seen them dive down to 500 AGL, cruise straight and level, and execute a pop up rockeye attack. While time consuming, they don't seem particularly suicidal.

#3542725 - 03/21/12 05:13 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Recluse Offline
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Now I remember one of the problems with AI SEAD tactics. With the default load outs, they generally carry TALDS. They will usually swoop in, drop the TALDS, (DUCKS AWAY!!) circle back and re-engage. While there has been a lot of controversy on the effectiveness of TALD, the net result was that AI SEAD flights took a long time to get the job done, even if they finally did it, so it was ineffective to "REQUEST WEASELS" when pretty much over the target, or have a SEAD Flight alongside when you enter the target area and expect much assistance (or have a SEAD and TALD armed element in your flight given an "ATTACK AIR DEFENSES" Command as you reach the target area) Far better to have the SEAD flight precede the STRIKE by some time...(or give the element ATTACK AIR DEFENSES while the STRIKE ELEMENT circles back) as has been covered, but then you run the risk of SAM/AAA that were missed by the SEAD folks being awake and alert when the STRIKE flight came sauntering in.

Last edited by Recluse; 03/21/12 05:15 PM.

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#3542927 - 03/21/12 10:25 PM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Lion Offline
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There's no way to modify AI loadouts in the mission editor drop down menu?

Last edited by Lion; 03/21/12 10:26 PM.
#3543025 - 03/22/12 12:54 AM Re: Mission Building: "request assistance/weasels" [Re: Lion]  
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Recluse Offline
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I don't believe so. The custom loadouts for Player aircraft don't appear in the Dropdowns in the Mission Builder. But there must be a way to add them, as I think TSH added a few extras to the choices present in the original.


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