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#3529028 - 02/29/12 10:13 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master
I have played a lot of flying games and the AI in RoF is really good. The problem is the longer you play the better you get and then you start to notice all the problems with the AI and you start to take advantage of those problems.

AI will always be the weakest part of a flight simulation. There is no way around that but to be fair to RoF they have a pretty good AI all things considered.


I agree, apart from the "pretty good" part. IMO it's only pretty good in that you can shoot down things that are trying to shoot you down. To me, it's the main let-down of an otherwise brilliant sim, no doubt because of the ever-increasing abilities, and hence standards we are applying to sims. After a fair while I became tired of the repetetive tactics and haven't flown RoF since.

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#3529041 - 02/29/12 10:31 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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While it's true that AI can be a weak part of a flight sim, it's not always by the same factor. The new AI for Il-2 4.11 is very good, much better than RoF. I would say the same thing of Falcon BMS even though that's a very different kind of sim.

#3529262 - 03/01/12 04:59 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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melb australia
WWB, thanks. I'd be delighted to know what I'm doing wrong. Small problem--I'm computer illiterate, being brought up in an age before even TV, I take it a track is a flight record
. How do I send and receive it?
Second on reflection perhaps it has to do with my cockpit views. I am only using POV. I have TR5 but cannot use it in the Oz sunlight. As a sop to my aging eyes I use enemy icons. Being a purist, my cockpit view is fixed at around the same position as a normal pilot and I do not use zoom, snap views or external camera shots such as combat camera.. A great deal of the time I rely on the red arrows to indicate roughly where the enemy is. Other than that I fly full realism. I'm setting the height at 3000 and face to face so as not to gain immediate advantage.
So can you help?


Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
#3529293 - 03/01/12 06:11 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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WWBrian Offline
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I don't think it's your choice of settings as I flew pretty much the same...

3000 meters
Face-to-face
12:00 noon
No External views or padlock.
full real settings w/ engine warm and subtitles.
Standard views (slightly zoomed out)
Using TrackIR5 (but that is not an advantage IMHO - just an immersion bonus)

--No icons here though, and I would suggest this may be the crux of your issues. Chasing around an arrowhead on the edge of your monitor is not using your plane's energy to its best potential to be sure - especially since you do not have "eyes-on" your target to know if he is gaining or losing energy. Has more or less energy than you...or much more information you should be collecting to make better judgments on putting yourself in a better position tactically, let alone getting a gun solution.

I'd be happy to discuss this further with you if you wish in PM or something to not hijack the thread.

S!


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

Intel i7 980X @3.8 GHz | ASUS P6X58D Premium | Antec 1200w PSU | 12GB 1600Mhz RAM
SLI - 2x eVGA GTX 580 3072MB vRAM | Dell 3007WFP 30" + 2x Dell 2007FP 20" @ 5388x1600 res.
Corsair Force GT 240GB SSD - O/S drive | Corsair Force 60GB SSD - ROF drive
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#3529418 - 03/01/12 12:16 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: R_Suppards]  
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Originally Posted By: R_Suppards
WWB, thanks. I'd be delighted to know what I'm doing wrong.


Consider using snap views and the zoom function then, or put up curtains so you can use track-ir? You're really handicapping yourself, as those functions are supposed to make up for the inherent limitations of viewing the world through a small rectangle. yep

#3529468 - 03/01/12 01:56 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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I know there's no way I could have achieved the level of success I've had in ROF if I didn't fly with my Track-Ir.

Not even close...

copter


Skids are for kids!
#3529692 - 03/01/12 05:39 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Copterdrvr]  
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WWBrian Offline
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Originally Posted By: Copterdrvr
I know there's no way I could have achieved the level of success I've had in ROF if I didn't fly with my Track-Ir.

Not even close...

copter


While that may be true for you Copter....TrackIR is still an immersion bonus, not a necessity for success.

...just look at the "ROF Championship" website. Watch the videos, and see some TOP ACES using snap and pan views. No TiR there!

Jus' Sayin'...


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

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#3529784 - 03/01/12 07:27 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Copterdrvr Offline
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Yeah, I know but I just can't maintain situational awareness by flying the hat to change views and flying the aircraft at the same time! biggrin

I fly helo's that use a "hat" for normal control inputs and to control the autopilot-but I can turn my head to see what's going on---thank goodness!! cheers

copter


Skids are for kids!
#3529914 - 03/01/12 09:55 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: WWBrian]  
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Originally Posted By: WWBrian
Originally Posted By: Copterdrvr
I know there's no way I could have achieved the level of success I've had in ROF if I didn't fly with my Track-Ir.

Not even close...

copter


While that may be true for you Copter....


That's all he said in his post.
I'm in the same boat. I never used nor missed TrackIR when flying IL2, even online. While I always thought
it would be nice and intended to purchase it at some point, I never felt hampered by not having it.

RoF was a different story for me, I just couldn't get the hang of maintaining proper awareness with the snap views.
Mostly I think because of that top wing in my face all the time. Track IR has made all the difference to
my RoF experience, and I wouldn't go back.

Look around with your head or use your thumb? No brainier really.

#3530051 - 03/02/12 01:05 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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WWBrian Offline
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Heya Gambit,

True Dat'

...just like rudder with the Z and X keys of days ago, or throttle with plus and minus.

It's all in what you are used to.

...but I'd hate for other readers of the thread to think they need TrackIR in order to succeed at ROF when they clearly don't.

No Brainers for me these days is HOTAS, 2560x1600 res, TiR, and high-speed Internet.

YMMV


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

Intel i7 980X @3.8 GHz | ASUS P6X58D Premium | Antec 1200w PSU | 12GB 1600Mhz RAM
SLI - 2x eVGA GTX 580 3072MB vRAM | Dell 3007WFP 30" + 2x Dell 2007FP 20" @ 5388x1600 res.
Corsair Force GT 240GB SSD - O/S drive | Corsair Force 60GB SSD - ROF drive
WD VelociRaptor 300GB - Game drive | WD Black 1TB - Storage drive
CH HOTAS and TrackIR 5 +TCP | Realtek on-board sound | Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit

#3530201 - 03/02/12 06:18 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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R_Suppards Offline
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melb australia
WWB,I know you suggested this part of thread is OT and perhaps PM is the way to go but it does seem to have touched on a real point of interest and I'm sure lurkers might find it useful. I can see that reliance just on the arrow is limiting and perhaps including a snap view above the wing could be a help. As to energy flying, it's something I'm very aware of in my own control. Although the Camel is a T&B, I don't use it that way. As I said earlier I get above and behind where possible and try to drop down on my opponent. But just the arrow and POV hat does block situational awareness of the opponent's move. I use icons because my advanced age demands some help.
TIR5 is a great help and as autumn approaches I'll be able to get back to using it. But I'm facing a challenge now and I intend to handle it.

Last edited by R_Suppards; 03/02/12 06:23 AM.

Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
#3530278 - 03/02/12 10:09 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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R_S,

PM would be easiest, as discussing ACM in the open. would likely elicit many distractions of varied opinions with different levels of skill. I'm not the know-all, be-all of ACM, and there are many more out there that have a tighter grasp on it than I. Only because you asked, I offer what I do know in an attempt to help.

But be that as it may, let's just say your on the right "Track" (pun intended) with setting up additional views. Try pan mode. A single snap view over the wing (as you suggested) would not be as benificial as you might think. You really should strive to keep eyes on target every moment you can...it will only help you improve the decissions you make while getting position.

I do not believe in the whole Boom-n-Zoom OR Turn-n-Burn roles mentality.

No, instead my philosophy is: every plane performs every role dependant on the situation and circumstances one finds one's self in. It's a very dynamic (or fluid) role. A role that can swap back and forth many times during the course of a single combat.

You do seem aware of this, at least in part, by striving to keep your Camel above. But I can also see the difficulty in keeping that role if you are unaware of your enemy's energy state, or even the enemy's position (pitch and bank) for that matter.

So I would suggest the most important thing to practice at this point is:

Keeping eyes on enemy at all times - To make more informed decissions on best choice for maneuver dependant on what enemy is doing.


After all, what else do you really need to be looking at?

...and of course you can leave your icons on. WinkNGrin

S!


WingWalker (virtual) Combat Squadron

Intel i7 980X @3.8 GHz | ASUS P6X58D Premium | Antec 1200w PSU | 12GB 1600Mhz RAM
SLI - 2x eVGA GTX 580 3072MB vRAM | Dell 3007WFP 30" + 2x Dell 2007FP 20" @ 5388x1600 res.
Corsair Force GT 240GB SSD - O/S drive | Corsair Force 60GB SSD - ROF drive
WD VelociRaptor 300GB - Game drive | WD Black 1TB - Storage drive
CH HOTAS and TrackIR 5 +TCP | Realtek on-board sound | Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit

#3530922 - 03/03/12 12:20 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: WWBrian]  
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Copterdrvr Offline
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Originally Posted By: WWBrian
R_S,

Keeping eyes on enemy at all times - To make more informed decissions on best choice for maneuver dependant on what enemy is doing.

After all, what else do you really need to be looking at? S!


Which is why I mentioned the T-Ir. If you've spent enough money to purchase ROF and have a computer that's strong enough to run ROF well, you should be able to fork the bucks for the system. I KNOW you don't need it to fly the sim but the immersion one gets from using it is truly indescribable. I'
ve been flying flightsims since the original "Gunship" (I think it was MicroProse) in the 80's so I have a few hours flying them.

I have over 8,000 hours of real flight time in helicopters that operate basically on the higher end of the airspeeds and altitudes available in ROF and I've never flown a sim that gave me the "feeling" of real flight that ROF does.

I wouldn't feel that way if I wasn't using my Ti-r 5 because it's the one thing that makes me feel like I'm "really" flying....

I spent years flying IL-2 WITHOUT Track Ir but couldn't go back after I upgraded.

They have a TI-R 4 on Ebay for 51 dollars-I'd sell blood if I had to to get one because yes-it makes the sim that much more realistic--and enjoyable!!!

Just sayin' as that's my opinion biggrin

copter


Skids are for kids!
#3531851 - 03/04/12 09:51 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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swingman Offline
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Back to the AI issues...

The two things that annoys me the most are not about how they behave in combat, but their landings:

  • Land into the wind. Landing with 5m/s tail wind, or cross wind, when you have a large open space is stupid and dangerous.
  • Make emergency landings when damaged. I don't know how many AI mates I've lost because they've glided away damaged, aimed for an open field, and in the last moment turn into a forest or a building and get themselves killed.


One thing for combat

  • climb! Even when in a plane with excellent climbing ability facing a weak opponent, they turn and turn and turn, loosing altitude and speed in the process.

#3531906 - 03/04/12 01:06 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Yeah, the emergency landing glitch is a hoot!

I'd have to say that the majority of the enemy aircraft I've disabled and forced to make "unscheduled" landings, end up in a treeline totally destroyed!

Don't mind it when when my victims do that----hate it when my wingmen do it!!!!

copter


Skids are for kids!
#3532265 - 03/04/12 11:51 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: swingman]  
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Originally Posted By: swingman

  • Land into the wind. Landing with 5m/s tail wind, or cross wind, when you have a large open space is stupid and dangerous.
  • Make emergency landings when damaged. I don't know how many AI mates I've lost because they've glided away damaged, aimed for an open field, and in the last moment turn into a forest or a building and get themselves killed.




Agreed +100

I learned to land (mainly just the speeds, radiator settings, etc.) from Requiem's training vids on youtube. He did remind me of an important step (one that I neglect because I'm used to ATC telling me in the real cockpit). I ALWAYS buzz the field and check the windsock before landing, and ALWAYS line up my approach to be as much into the wind as possible. I've noticed that my wingmen do EXACTLY the opposite. If the wind is blowing from the direction of the open field, they'll come in over the hangars. If the wind's coming in from over the hangars, they'll land from the direction of the open field. They always land with a tailwind, in the exact reciprocal to a headwind. This isn't as important in my Jasta 11 career in the Albatros, but when the DR. 1's arrive, or in my RE8 career, it's imperative, or we'll be losing planes every sortie from crash-landings, even with no battle damage.

As for emergency landings, I've only witnessed a handful, and surprisingly they've all been successful. I'm sure the problem is there, I just haven't witnessed it yet.


"A thousand flights mean a thousand landings. Somehow you always have to come down, one way or another. And then one day it will be for the last time."

Heinz Knoke
#3532346 - 03/05/12 02:55 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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As a person who hardly ever plays off-line, the AI is not of the gravest concern, to me. AI gunners, perhaps, but that's about it.
I'll tell you one AI item I'd love to see...balloon observers jumping out and parachuting down to the ground when you attack them. Would that be immersive, or what? Not sure how that would be implemented, I know everything needs a trigger. Maybe when your first rounds hit the balloon, over the side he goes.


"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace."
Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia

#3532535 - 03/05/12 11:51 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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In reality, as soon as an enemy aircraft was seen to be approaching you would be out of that balloon in a shot.
if the balloonatic waited until rounds were hitting the balloon it may be too late.. if it then burst into flames, it would then be dropping all around him, plus and more importantly, the oxygen around him would be drawn to the fire and he would probably then get an 'air steal' and his chute may collapse.. (been there, done that for real.. it's frightening)

#3532807 - 03/05/12 07:22 PM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: Trooper117]  
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Tx
Originally Posted By: TROOPER117
In reality, as soon as an enemy aircraft was seen to be approaching you would be out of that balloon in a shot.
if the balloonatic waited until rounds were hitting the balloon it may be too late.. if it then burst into flames, it would then be dropping all around him, plus and more importantly, the oxygen around him would be drawn to the fire and he would probably then get an 'air steal' and his chute may collapse.. (been there, done that for real.. it's frightening)


Besides that, the old WWI chutes were static deploy. You couldn't free fall away from danger before opening. Odds are good that the chute would be in flames along with the balloon.

#3550888 - 04/05/12 04:29 AM Re: AI improvements - what would you like to see? [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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A list of quibbles I've noted about the AI:

1. Flies at maximum speed, always. I took off as a SPAD 13 with a SPAD 7 flight leader. I could barely keep up and I this is with a min fuel load, no bombs, all the engine management tricks. I could understand a max performance climb but once at 2000m, lean it out, cruise to the objective. Too many flight sims' AI do this, non-cooperative lead flying. Usually the AI's simplified FM allows them to do superhuman. I blame the auto career generator for planning 185 kmph legs on the mission.

2. AI friendlies sit right in tail gunner's sights. I lost 4 friendly aircraft to one two-seater on a mission as they just sit in the heart of his engagement envelope. Does AI not understand attacking turreted planes from better angles?

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