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#3523981 - 02/22/12 09:43 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Gambit21]  
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Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Originally Posted By: Pooch
I think we already have a damn good planeset. I'm not one of those who thinks we need every airplane that served. I probably flew about five or six planes , in il-2 when I had it. About 200 flyables, and I flew about 6 of them.


Exactly
You can only fly one plane at a time after all, and if you have time to fly all the planes currently offered in RoF even
at this juncture, you'd better look at what shape the rest of your life is in!


All the planes I want to fly exist, with the possible exception of the FE2b which would be fun to play with. However, there are a few we don't have that I'd like to be able to shoot at smile. Even with the FE2b I'm much more interested in it as a non-flyable than a flyable.

I guess that's an issue with the business model - making planes that will be appreciated as non-flyables doesn't make them any money. Perhaps you could sell them as non-flyables on the basis that they *will* be present as non-flyables regardless of whether you've bought them in multiplayer, but won't show up at all in single player? Though I'd guess that would add significant complexity to the Career code; at present it only has to work out what planes the player is allowed to use, not what planes the rest of the AI world can have. Not sure I have a solution to how to make it economically attractive to make planes that people don't want to fly but do want to shoot at.

Last edited by Mahoney; 02/22/12 09:44 AM.
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#3524172 - 02/22/12 05:22 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Mahoney]  
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Originally Posted By: Mahoney
Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Originally Posted By: Pooch
I think we already have a damn good planeset. I'm not one of those who thinks we need every airplane that served. I probably flew about five or six planes , in il-2 when I had it. About 200 flyables, and I flew about 6 of them.


Exactly
You can only fly one plane at a time after all, and if you have time to fly all the planes currently offered in RoF even
at this juncture, you'd better look at what shape the rest of your life is in!


All the planes I want to fly exist, with the possible exception of the FE2b which would be fun to play with. However, there are a few we don't have that I'd like to be able to shoot at smile. Even with the FE2b I'm much more interested in it as a non-flyable than a flyable.

I guess that's an issue with the business model - making planes that will be appreciated as non-flyables doesn't make them any money. Perhaps you could sell them as non-flyables on the basis that they *will* be present as non-flyables regardless of whether you've bought them in multiplayer, but won't show up at all in single player? Though I'd guess that would add significant complexity to the Career code; at present it only has to work out what planes the player is allowed to use, not what planes the rest of the AI world can have. Not sure I have a solution to how to make it economically attractive to make planes that people don't want to fly but do want to shoot at.


The solution to this seems pretty obvious. For aircraft that are expected to be slow sellers in the traditional sense (i.e. not many will buy the cockpits), maybe charge a nominal fee (field mod cost perhaps) for the AI plane to show up in game. This will get 777 the revenue to continue making these important filler planes but give people the option to opt out of the cockpit while still helping to advance the game. I'm sure some people will complain about nickel & diming here but unfortunately these economics are a reality for flight simmers these days frown.

Just a thought,

Fafnir_6

#3524194 - 02/22/12 05:54 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Id love to get a zeppelin!

you could be a gunner, a captain , bomb aimer etc, I wish they had the Roland in the game , one of my short list of cool WW1 planes

isnt the hansa brandenburg seaplane fighter coming out too?


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#3524197 - 02/22/12 05:58 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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I wanted this one , not the biplane frown


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#3524308 - 02/22/12 08:52 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: fafnir_6]  
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Originally Posted By: fafnir_6
The solution to this seems pretty obvious. For aircraft that are expected to be slow sellers in the traditional sense (i.e. not many will buy the cockpits), maybe charge a nominal fee (field mod cost perhaps) for the AI plane to show up in game.

I'm a bit confused - unless I'm missing something I'd already suggested precisely that in the post to which you were responding, and then pointed out the issue with it - currently the game has no concept of planes that the AI cannot fly; if the plane exists then you can fight against it.

Changing that model to one in which there are planes that exist but which you are not authorised even to encounter has knock on effects for the code of the whole game, particularly the career mode. Currently the career mode only has to worry about which planes the player is authorised to fly, this change would make it have to worry about which planes the player is authorised to encounter. That could be an ugly problem to solve - what do you do if someone quite legitimately starts a career at a time/place where they would regularly encounter a type they have not paid to be allowed to encounter? Replace it with some other unhistorical type? Just leave it out - and let the player be bored as the skies are empty in mission after mission? In contrast the current model of making all planes available to encounter regardless of what you have paid for is simple and elegant.

#3524340 - 02/22/12 09:39 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: fafnir_6]  
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Originally Posted By: fafnir_6
Originally Posted By: Mahoney
Originally Posted By: Gambit21
Originally Posted By: Pooch
I think we already have a damn good planeset. I'm not one of those who thinks we need every airplane that served. I probably flew about five or six planes , in il-2 when I had it. About 200 flyables, and I flew about 6 of them.


Exactly
You can only fly one plane at a time after all, and if you have time to fly all the planes currently offered in RoF even
at this juncture, you'd better look at what shape the rest of your life is in!


All the planes I want to fly exist, with the possible exception of the FE2b which would be fun to play with. However, there are a few we don't have that I'd like to be able to shoot at smile. Even with the FE2b I'm much more interested in it as a non-flyable than a flyable.

I guess that's an issue with the business model - making planes that will be appreciated as non-flyables doesn't make them any money. Perhaps you could sell them as non-flyables on the basis that they *will* be present as non-flyables regardless of whether you've bought them in multiplayer, but won't show up at all in single player? Though I'd guess that would add significant complexity to the Career code; at present it only has to work out what planes the player is allowed to use, not what planes the rest of the AI world can have. Not sure I have a solution to how to make it economically attractive to make planes that people don't want to fly but do want to shoot at.


The solution to this seems pretty obvious. For aircraft that are expected to be slow sellers in the traditional sense (i.e. not many will buy the cockpits), maybe charge a nominal fee (field mod cost perhaps) for the AI plane to show up in game. This will get 777 the revenue to continue making these important filler planes but give people the option to opt out of the cockpit while still helping to advance the game. I'm sure some people will complain about nickel & diming here but unfortunately these economics are a reality for flight simmers these days frown.

Just a thought,

Fafnir_6


Then you have to figure out a way for different ai aircraft to show up for every single person depending on what planes
they've purchased. If you think about it, you'll realize that's a far from plausible solution.

Last edited by Gambit21; 02/22/12 09:40 PM.
#3524388 - 02/22/12 10:54 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Tx
On topic, the Halberstadt D.II, Fokker D.II, Roland D.II and D.VI, Snipe, DH5, mid war Nieuports (24 and 27), ... there are many that would be nice. However, there are enough right now to play a continuous career from mid 1916 to the end of the war for each and every nationality. That's pretty good. In fact, there are almost as many scouts in RoF as there were initially in RB3D.

Bring on the two seaters smile.

#3524391 - 02/22/12 10:56 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Mahoney Offline
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I've been gently looking for a list of WWI types by production number - it would be interesting to see it with the RoF types highlighted and see if there are any obvious holes. Though I imagine that would be skewed towards late war types where production was at a higher level across the board.

#3524598 - 02/23/12 07:32 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Mahoney]  
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Originally Posted By: Mahoney
I've been gently looking for a list of WWI types by production number - it would be interesting to see it with the RoF types highlighted and see if there are any obvious holes. Though I imagine that would be skewed towards late war types where production was at a higher level across the board.


Is this what you're after?

There's a really unreadable capcha to do before the link works, but I found the pdf very interesting.

Link

#3524914 - 02/23/12 08:14 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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That looks awesome - thanks very much!

#3525000 - 02/23/12 11:16 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: dude163]  
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Originally Posted By: dude163
I wanted this one , not the biplane frown


The problem is, the W.29 was only operational from the middle of 1918 onwards (78 built). The W.12 was in service from early-mid 1917 onwards (146 units built) so unless you wish to have a German floatplane campaign for only a few months, the W.12 is the better choice in terms of time covered in the campiagn or career mode. I agree that having the W.29 would be awesome but it seems many people want to have 777's scarce resources directed away from the floatplanes. Who knows, maybe we'll have it someday.

@Mahoney: I'm sorry, I guess I didn't read your post as closely as I should have. It seems we agree on this approach.

@Gambit21: I am aware there would be technical challenges with implementing the pay-for-AI approach but neither of us have detailed knowledge about how hard that is to accomplish. I think the goal here is to suggest ideas on how to make early-war cr@p-planes more economically feasible for 777. They can then tell us if it is too hard to implement for the benefit gained.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6

Last edited by fafnir_6; 02/23/12 11:19 PM.
#3525067 - 02/24/12 01:46 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: fafnir_6]  
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Originally Posted By: fafnir_6


@Gambit21: I am aware there would be technical challenges with implementing the pay-for-AI approach but neither of us have detailed knowledge about how hard that is to accomplish. I think the goal here is to suggest ideas on how to make early-war cr@p-planes more economically feasible for 777. They can then tell us if it is too hard to implement for the benefit gained.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


Great, I typed what I typed for a reason - based on the resources 777 seems to have available, what we've experienced in
other developed sims where the team involved has had far more resources, and the way the career currently works and is likely to remain working in that regard for the foreseeable future. Again, based on available information. It doesn't take any technical knowledge to render an educated opinion on the plausibility of different AI aircraft for every player, especially if you've been flying combat sims for 25 years.

I'm guessing based on all of this that it's impossible, but that's just bringing common sense to bear born of what we've been told and experienced, rather than 'technical knowledge'
Sometimes common sense goes a long way. YMMV reading

#3525068 - 02/24/12 01:46 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Gambit21]  
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Originally Posted By: Gambit21
[quote=fafnir_6]

@Gambit21: I am aware there would be technical challenges with implementing the pay-for-AI approach but neither of us have detailed knowledge about how hard that is to accomplish. I think the goal here is to suggest ideas on how to make early-war cr@p-planes more economically feasible for 777. They can then tell us if it is too hard to implement for the benefit gained.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


Great, I typed what I typed for a reason - based on the resources 777 seems to have available, what we've experienced in
other developed sims where the team involved has had far more resources, and the way the career currently works and is likely to remain working in that regard for the foreseeable future. Again, based on available information. It doesn't take any technical knowledge to render an educated opinion on the plausibility of different AI aircraft for every player, especially if you've been paying attention.

I'm guessing based on all of this that it's impossible, but that's just bringing common sense to bear born of what we've been told and experienced, rather than 'technical knowledge'
Sometimes common sense goes a long way. YMMV reading

Last edited by Gambit21; 02/24/12 01:47 AM.
#3525110 - 02/24/12 03:37 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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My vote is for a late war SPAD XIII two pack, like the SPAD VII two pack. Include a 220 hp version and a 235 version. You get two great, significant, high production machines, needed to fill out the set. Also add an Albatros DIIIau, DVII with DIIIau, to fly along with DVIIfs and a Pfalz DXII with DIIIau too! =) Using high altitude Vander Vintage missions, multiplayer would be total Hypoxia inducing awesomeness! !Charge S! MJ

Last edited by MJMORROW; 02/24/12 03:40 AM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3525113 - 02/24/12 03:44 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: fafnir_6]  
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Originally Posted By: fafnir_6
@Gambit21: I am aware there would be technical challenges with implementing the pay-for-AI approach but neither of us have detailed knowledge about how hard that is to accomplish. I think the goal here is to suggest ideas on how to make early-war cr@p-planes more economically feasible for 777. They can then tell us if it is too hard to implement for the benefit gained.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


I think it might be a bit presumptuous for "suggest" anything for 777 . . . not that they are all knowing (or anything like it), but I find it improbable that they have not (or will not) explore whatever ways are feasible within their business model for building and releasing new content. Either way, we can argue till we are blue in the face over what is or is not feasible, but we have little actual say in the matter.

Last edited by Nimits; 02/25/12 12:11 AM.
#3525155 - 02/24/12 05:03 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Well, as far as early war planes, we have the hand guns and you can introduce a rifle/ hand grenade field mod, for use with machines that do not have forward fixed or flexible mount guns. Still, I would make the late war SPAD XIIIs, before any crap plane. We have a 3D model for the SPAD XIII, already. I have a feeling that the team has plenty of info on the late war SPAD XIII machines. The SPAD XIIIs are highly significant machines, that should be in a game that features DVIIfs and super exotic DVIIIS. I use the SPAD 200 hp SPAD XIII more than I use most of the add-ons, even though I love the other add-ons, a whole lot. Only my SPAD VIIs get more use, than my free to play 200 HP SPAD XIII. If I had the late war SPAD XIIIs, they would replace the SPAD VII machines as my most used ROF add-on. I can't believe that I am alone on that front. Strutters sound ok, but a 235 hp SPAD XIII just sounds like more fun for speed demon types, like me. =) S! MJ

The same goes for the Albatros DVa with Mercedes DIIIau, DVII with Mercedes DIIIau and Pfalz DXII with Mercedes DIIIau; all three of these planes should be add-ons, before any crap plane, AMEN.

Last edited by MJMORROW; 02/24/12 05:12 AM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3525167 - 02/24/12 05:55 AM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Nimits]  
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Originally Posted By: Nimits
Originally Posted By: fafnir_6
@Gambit21: I am aware there would be technical challenges with implementing the pay-for-AI approach but neither of us have detailed knowledge about how hard that is to accomplish. I think the goal here is to suggest ideas on how to make early-war cr@p-planes more economically feasible for 777. They can then tell us if it is too hard to implement for the benefit gained.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


I think it might be a bit presumptuous for "suggest" anything for 777 . . . not that they are all knowing (or anything like it), but I find it improbable that they have not (or will not) explore whatever ways are feasible within their business model for building and release new content. Either way, we can argue till we are blue in the face over what is or is not feasible, but we little actual say in the matter.


I know, but this a forum for discussion. We were discussing the situation (my word ÈsuggestÈ may have been not the best choice smile...Presumptuous, as you say). Early war planes (especially AI two-seaters) seem to be on a lot of people's want lists. Being in the midst of an Oct, 1916 Jasta 2 career, I can certainly see the argument in favor of a BE.2c and a Farman F40 (and maybe an early Albatros C). We were just discussing ways of making this happen, economically.

@MJMorrow: You sir, are a multiplayer RoF pilot...I can tell smile. There are so many competing interests with respect to RoFès future itès easy to see why 777 might decide to go off on a tangent like they have with the 2012 roadmap (not that Ièm upset). Your aircraft choices would make a lot of Multiplayer users very happy (and Mercedes D.IIIau would make everyone happy).

@Gambit21: Limited resources can achieve a lot (just look at Daidalos Team with IL-2). ÈCommon senseÈ as you put it, far too easily translates into Èit cannot be doneÈ, until a visionary team like DT (or maybe 777 in this case) step in.

Cheers,

Fafnir_6


Last edited by fafnir_6; 02/24/12 06:55 AM.
#3525291 - 02/24/12 02:52 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Can we all just agree we'd like to see every plane that ever flew in WWI in here with top fidelity NOW?
Beyond that it's just a question of priorities, and other than general things like "more 2 seaters" or "more maps", they're not going to listen too closely. After all, just look at the disagreement in this single thread among a handful of users on which direction that should take?
No one is disputing the facts, it's the conclusions, and 777 is going to rely on theirs over anyone else here.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3525309 - 02/24/12 03:16 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: Force10]  
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Whatever they put out we will all purchase it I guess.. I would dearly love to see some more RFC pushers, and I don't doubt that in time we will probably get them smile (nothing like ending on a positive note.. lol!)

#3525644 - 02/24/12 10:43 PM Re: Any single seaters on the horizon? [Re: fafnir_6]  
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[quote=fafnir_6@MJMorrow: You sir, are a multiplayer RoF pilot...I can tell smile. There are so many competing interests with respect to RoFès future itès easy to see why 777 might decide to go off on a tangent like they have with the 2012 roadmap (not that Ièm upset). Your aircraft choices would make a lot of Multiplayer users very happy (and Mercedes D.IIIau would make everyone happy).


[/quote]



Fafnir,
Yep! I am guilty as charged! I am definitely a multiplayer ROF'er. I sure understand the importance of what we call crap planes and I want them in the game, but I guess I am more of a late 1916 to November 11th 1918 guy. I definitely think that having a focus on multiplayer, I would tend to favor these machines, as they are among the better choices for a multiplayer environment. Still, single player will be missing some seriously important planes and there will be major gaps in the time line, if the Albatros-with Mercedes DIIIau, DVII-with DIIIau, Pfalz-with DIIIau and my favorites, the late war SPAD XIIIs, (220 HP & 235 HP) don't make it in. S! MJ

Last edited by MJMORROW; 02/24/12 10:45 PM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
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