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#3517059 - 02/12/12 06:02 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lonewolf357]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Yeah, though this wasn't just luck: as I read, the F-117's used the same route several times, and Colonel Dani's battery was placed on that route deliberately.

Another popular urban legend. nope

Each SAM battery used to have two locations.
One is for peacetime, the other is for wartime.

When OAF started, Serbians decided to spare their assets, as long as possible...
... so on the first night, only two (7th and 8th) battery was activated from the available eight to defend Belgrade.

All the others were moved to their wartime location, and waited their turn.

The 3rd battery peace position was at Jakovo...


... and their wartime "secret" position was an old Dvina site beside Simanovci.
They relocated there few days before the war broke out.
(this picture was made later, when the 6th battery was located and bombed here...)


When their turn came on the third night, they were lucky as the F117 flew the right path, no Weasels were around, and their crew was the best.
(Before the war, Jakovo site stored and used the Akkord of the JNA)
yep

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/12/12 06:37 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3517081 - 02/12/12 06:37 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Lonewolf357 Offline
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Hpasp, thanks for clarification! There is a lot of myths and legends about any war, coming from both sides and from non-participating sides, as well. Finding the truth is highly complicated process.

#3517087 - 02/12/12 06:50 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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I just got my copy of "The 11 Days of Christmas" and found some sections which may help us understand why a relatively small number of B-52s was shot down. Apart from that, it seems that our job, as we play the simulator, is simpler because some operations don't have to be done manually.

"Tension mounted as the missile crews continued trying to track the B-52s passively on their Spoon Rest search radar by following the jamming strobes instead of using their Fan Song radars in the active mode and risk an attack by anti-radiation missiles. But the passive tracking was not working – the jamming was too intense."

" (...) now the difficult process of tracking the return began. Each of the three guidance officers has a small steering wheel under his radar scope, and each slowly and carefully turned the wheel to track the return while twisting their gain control knobs to try to sharpen the jamming strobe into a useable target. The actions of these three guidance officers were critical. When there was no jamming the radar could be set to automatically track the target, but when the target was jamming the return was too unstable and the missile had to be guided manually. They each had to gently turn their steering wheels to keep the return centered in their scopes, so the missile could follow the radar beam to the target."

"It is difficult enough to guide the missiles manually under normal conditions when the targets are clearly seen. It is even more difficult looking at the silky crepe jamming of the B-52 aircraft on the radar screen. An uneven rotation or a mere jerky movement of the control wheel could cause the missiles to deviate from the target by thousands of meters or even detonate in the air."

#3517091 - 02/12/12 06:53 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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On the other hand, the American side committed several mistakes which make it easier for the Vietnamese to detect and track the aircraft.
And not all of the planes had the same jamming capability.

"(…)Charcoal 01 was at the head of nine B-52Gs in three cells attacking the Yen Vien railroad. Charcoal 01 was one of the ‘unmodified’ G models with the lower powered ALT-6B jammers; this was the first time the North Vietnamese SAM operators had seen the lower powered system, and they were to exploit it with a vengeance."

#3517093 - 02/12/12 06:54 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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The American crews also were prone to mistakes.

"The B-52s’ multiple jammers were almost all controlled manually, and each of the jammers had three knobs, so the skill of the EW [electronic warfare officer] in manipulating these controls was absolutely vital. Ken Nocito, a G model EW flying the first night, remembered: ‘There were too many knobs to turn. If you have all the time in the world, it is easy to select the correct knob and casually tune the system to cover the radar. But when someone is shooting at you, time is of the essence and there is tremendous pressure. It was not a good feeling to reach up, turn a knob and find out it was the wrong one. It could be a terminal mistake if it happened at the wrong time’"

#3517139 - 02/12/12 08:10 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Quote:
Serbian HARM trap.
Some Iraqi MiG21's were in Serbia for overhaul, before the war broke out.
They dismantled its RP22 radar, tuned it to the Neva frequency, and put it into a container.
It was remotely operated from the SNR, and attracted the HARMs like a magnet...
yep



It doesn't look like MiG-21 radar...

#3517222 - 02/12/12 10:18 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Vympel Offline
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Quote:
Serbian HARM trap.
Some Iraqi MiG21's were in Serbia for overhaul, before the war broke out.
They dismantled its RP22 radar, tuned it to the Neva frequency, and put it into a container.
It was remotely operated from the SNR, and attracted the HARMs like a magnet...
yep



It doesn't look like MiG-21 radar...


Its inside the cylindrical container.

#3517481 - 02/13/12 05:51 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Vympel]  
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Its inside the cylindrical container.

It looks too small... yep

#3517489 - 02/13/12 06:25 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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It looks too small...

There were several versions built in quite a haste...

MD-04 (on the picture) uses the magnetron of the P15 cruise missile (4~8kW)
IRZ-1 used the radio proxy fuse of the V601P missile (1kW)
IRZ-2,IRZ-3 same as IRZ-1 with increased output (5~7 / 5~10kW)
IRZ-21 used RP22 radar from the MiG21 (65kW)
IRZ-22 same as IRZ-21, but with increased output (250kW)

...another one.



Last edited by Hpasp; 02/13/12 03:36 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3517813 - 02/13/12 06:14 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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piston79 Offline
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Could you share some links with those photoses?

#3517849 - 02/13/12 07:22 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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The question of when a fix is scheduled Simulator 923.4?

#3517855 - 02/13/12 07:31 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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The question still so ...

If the target is flying at low altitude of 100 meters an example, I have to choose the mode of "K" and still work on K3 burning red lights!

This is correct or not!

Or should I just inc. mode "K" and all!

Example Goal Ashuluk "Tornado" height of 100 meters, speed over Mach 1.

Dvina:

1. On Mode "K"

2. On "Work on R3," Red Lights are burning!

3. I can shoot.


Last edited by max2012; 02/13/12 07:33 PM.
#3517868 - 02/13/12 07:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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What kind of Tumbler "RLC"?

More so, I understand ...

1. First you mode "K" turn.

2. Then turn on "Working for K3" burning red lights.

It's all against the Tornado as I understand, altitude 100 meters, speed of more than Mach 1.








Last edited by max2012; 02/13/12 07:54 PM.
#3518203 - 02/14/12 06:56 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp  Offline
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Could you share some links with those photoses?

This forum has several wartime photos...
http://www.mycity-military.com/Avijacija-i-PVO/250-rbr-PVO.html


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3518204 - 02/14/12 07:00 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: max2012]  
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Hpasp Offline
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The question of when a fix is scheduled Simulator 923.4?

This is not a commercial product, just a hobby. (so there is no point in asking it all the time)
It will be released, when I will have enough free time, and I feel it to be ready.

Generally there used to be two major versions per year, while minor versions are for bugfixing after the major version released.

Currently I'm working on major version v924 that would include 3DAAR, plus several new missions.
(and also bugfixes)

Last edited by Hpasp; 02/14/12 07:10 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3518206 - 02/14/12 07:02 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: max2012]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hpasp  Offline
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The question still so ...
If the target is flying at low altitude of 100 meters an example, I have to choose the mode of "K" and still work on K3 burning red lights!
This is correct or not!
Or should I just inc. mode "K" and all!


Please read manual page 35..36


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3518233 - 02/14/12 09:03 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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I realized that this was not a commercial product.

I just ask this year will be something else or not.

Also, I can not get the SR-71 with rocket Volkhov they reach 10 km by!

I tried several times to the Volkhov in any way.

They reach the rocket goes away.

It is not clear at all.

As for the method to know, I just need to inc. Work on R3 or not.

As I understand work on K3 needed if the height of at least 300m.

At what distances have to shoot at SR-71 Volkhov.

#3518235 - 02/14/12 09:06 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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If the reflected ground clutter is touching, or at the right side of the 4.2° elevation mark, the target is flying too close to the ground, and the radio proximity fuse cannot be used, as the echoes from the ground would confuse it.

It's no translation in Russian as the documentation to understand!

#3518237 - 02/14/12 09:07 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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max2012 Offline
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What is it in 4.2 Degrees is not clear, too, without translation into Russian.

#3518507 - 02/14/12 05:49 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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MK_PL Offline
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Poland
Could anybody tell me what's the device on the right?


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