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#3414491 - 10/20/11 02:35 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Laser Offline
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So, if:

1. it's possible, by *some* pilot accounts, to understand that the SE5a could turn with the Alb (?), maybe by performing some snap tricks (which cannot be 'sustained' for a long time though, IMHO)
2. other planes FM (but not the SE5a) can not be so very accurate due to lack of data

then, it means that the "New SE5A is awful!" ? Shouldn't be instead something like 'relative performance etc. etc.'

I must be SOO old, if such conclusions are already stated from the title; they may want, in the best case, to provoke discussions (by attracting attention), but what remains is the first impression, especially for most of people who don't have the time to read everything. I mean, some plane's FM is *finally* revised, and next follows a thread title like this.

I guess it became norm(al) though, when even documentaries nowadays have catastrophic titles smile

Don't get me wrong; personally, where there is no technical data, i'd go by taking all possible accounts from all involved parts, i'd multiply/divide each account importance with a number (weighted by friendly opinion, enemy opinion, rookie, ace, author, what was the previous plane the pilot was already used to, what was the general opinion about a plane the pilot has to fly) and then i'd go statistical until most of these accounts would prove possible in RoF - using good MP players. I think the previous paragraph shows just a 'simple' model of doing it, but already too complex from a practical point of view.


EDIT: Just for reference, a similar thread (in a way: note the different title and tone) on the official forums: http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=24569 Keyword: relative






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#3414514 - 10/20/11 03:13 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Copterdrvr Offline
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Another quick question for you-should the SE5 be able to outclimb the Pfalz DIII?

I just came across one of them for the first time in my SE5 career and I could out run him but I sure couldn't outclimb him. I flew the DIII a long time ago in the "old" career but I apparently forgot just how good it was at turnin' and burnin'-man, he ate my lunch. I forgot that he could dive really well too so I picked up a few bullet holes on that maneuver! Fortunately I got some separation and was able to get away. My mechanics are gonna be pi$$ed when they see how much work they're gonna have to do to get my bird flyable again!!!!

Wonder why the hotshots didn't want to fly the P DIII-it sure seemed to outfly the heck out of my SE5...

One last question-I've been using 70 indicated for VY-is that the right airspeed for the SE5?

copter


Skids are for kids!
#3414522 - 10/20/11 03:21 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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arjisme Offline
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The SE5a should be able to outclimb the the Pfalz D.IIIa. In RoF, the D.IIIa is a very good turner, so trying to turn and burn with it is a losing game in an SE5a.

#3414527 - 10/20/11 03:25 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
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Lifer

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Alabaster, AL USA
It should IF the pilot keeps it at best climb speed.

Chucking the nose skyward and expecting to outclimb anything is the wrong way to do things.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#3414587 - 10/20/11 04:21 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Copterdrvr Offline
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Copterdrvr  Offline
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Lafayette, LA. USA
Which is why I asked what VY was for the SE5---not the climb angle.....

And for those who don't know, VY is the airspeed of a particular aircraft that will, besides other things, give the greatest rate of climb for that machine. It also gives the lowest rate of descent in autorotation and it's the speed that requires the least amount of power to fly the aircraft.

copter



Skids are for kids!
#3414789 - 10/20/11 09:18 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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RoFfan Offline
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I'd go a little faster, about 72-75mph.

But of all the scouts, I think the AI is best in the Pfalz D.IIIa. Trying to attack 3 or more of those from above is like standing over a pit of hungry crocodiles. They each take turns doing tail stands, spraying bullets vertically into the air. screwy

#3513310 - 02/07/12 07:42 AM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: Mogster]  
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Tiger27 Offline
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Perth, Western Australia
Originally Posted By: Mogster
Its no wonder people prefer the Pfalz over the SE5a in ROF at the moment, the thing is a beast, the ultimate yank and bank crate. Seriously overmodelled and easy to fly with it.

I think we need to wait till the Albatros and Pflaz flight models get looked at, I think there may be some unhappy Central flyers then. Even so anyone expecting the SE5a or Spads to win a stall flight with a well flown Albatros DIII or DV is heading for disappointment.







Not so sure about that, I find that although the SE5a is primarily a BnZ plane, when caught low and slow it is also a great stall fighter, I find a quick bunt with a bit of slip just as your opponent is about to shoot usually commits them to overshoot, generally right in front of your guns, of course you then want to make sure if you have the height that you split s put the nose down and gain some separation and height before you rejoin the fight.

I've had 4 or 5 enemy on my tail at times and outlasted them with barely a bullet hitting me just by staying slow and slipping and sliding to throw off their aim, you wont get many kills this way but in a pinch it might get you back to base in one piece.


III/JG11_Tiger
#3513442 - 02/07/12 02:19 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Dart Offline
Measured in Llamathrusts
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Lifer

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
Quote:
The Se5a is still a lethal weapon .... as long as you keep your speed and energy up.


QFT.

I long ago dropped the idea of "Turn" or "Boom and Zoom" fighters, as it's a road to ruin.

All fighters are energy fighters.

The difference is the energy band they work best within. A number of P-51's were lost in Korea attempting to shoot down the ultra uber Po-2 as an extreme example. The Mustang pilots were attempting to shoot them down by flying very low at the limits of stall and manuever against plywood biplanes.

That didn't mean the Po-2 was superior to the Mustang, or that the Mustang was modelled incorrectly.

In WWI planes it can be really dramatic - the Nieuport 11 is a fine aircraft and very lethal as designed when matched against aircraft within the same energy band. However, how it acted within that zone was different depending on its adversary.

Against a Taube the N11 was best served in slashing attacks, as the Taube lived in a lower energy "home" and matching it would put the N11 below its own best performance envelope. Against an Eindecker it could both outclimb and out turn - dealer's choice, as the energy bands weren't that far off. Against the first Albatros it was forced to carefully manage its energy and try to get the Hun to bring his plane down to the N11 energy "home," as it was below where the Albatros best worked at.

The SE5a isn't a dog by any stretch, or inferior. It just has a higher energy level demand than the Pfalz for a host of reasons. The Pfalz driver who's thinking will always try to get the SE5a to expend too much of his energy while staying within his own optimum range.

DR1's, of course, are hilarious and it's clear why they were produced in such small numbers and quickly removed from the front lines. Once a fellow in a peer aircraft realizes it's a one trick pony they're not too much of a threat - the smart English or French pilot that spots one early can dictate the fight. Loads of fun in multiplayer taking a stab at a DR1, flying well out of his gun range, climbing, and either ignoring him as one climbs, letting him chase at ever increasing distances (invariably blowing his energy and making him easy prey for the SPAD he didn't see), or re-engaging. Even in a supposed "dogfight" they're relatively easy to manage if one stays within one's energy band and doesn't try to match their speed.

The flip side is true as well. I shot down the overblown DR1 in single and multiplayer in Nieuport 11's and DH2's by reversing the tactic on them, forcing them to fly too slow in an attempt to match maneuvers. Once they're within five miles an hour of stall they'll either be fair game or forced to dive away - letting the "inferior" aicraft pick up even more energy (airspeed or altitude).

Last edited by Dart; 02/07/12 02:20 PM.

The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

From Laser:
"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#3513463 - 02/07/12 02:45 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: RoFfan]  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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Tx
Originally Posted By: RoFfan
I'd go a little faster, about 72-75mph.

But of all the scouts, I think the AI is best in the Pfalz D.IIIa. Trying to attack 3 or more of those from above is like standing over a pit of hungry crocodiles. They each take turns doing tail stands, spraying bullets vertically into the air. screwy


We have to get to the difference between an FM problem and badly programmed AI. "Standing on their tails" as we have all seen the AI do is not an FM problem. They pull up, they stall, they fall away, no problem. The problem is the sniper AI. The AI gets away with this maneuver because in that microsecond that it has you in its sights it snaps off a well placed burst and you die. It's not about the maneuver - which is really a horrible idea - it's about the fact that the AI can hit anything while doing it. Think about it, if not for the silly accuracy, this maneuver is guaranteed death.

Suggestion: Place a timer in the code - AI must have a firing solution for a set period of time before it opens fire. Solution timer should start when the target is within an n degree cone in front of the AI aircraft. Solution timer stops when target is outside of this cone. This would stop silly accurate snap shots. Said time could be as little as 1 or 2 seconds, but should be more than 2 milliseconds. Adjust timer based on play testing. Put timer in an ini file to allow tweaking by the user.

Suggestion: Try to code the AI to fly the aircraft within a reasonable envelope. The better the AI the closer to the edge of the envelope it comes. AI should try not to stall as that is a bad thing.

#3513588 - 02/07/12 05:53 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Bandy Offline
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Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Put timer in an ini file to allow tweaking by the user.

RoF doesn't use ini files currently. Not saying they can't or shouldn't just saying they seem reluctant to make it moddable...


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#3513897 - 02/08/12 12:43 AM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: Bandy]  
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SC/JG_Oesau Offline
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Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: Bandy
Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Put timer in an ini file to allow tweaking by the user.

RoF doesn't use ini files currently. Not saying they can't or shouldn't just saying they seem reluctant to make it moddable...


Because FM modding pulls apart communities rather than bring them together IMHO - it's small enough as it is so I'm totally against FM modding.


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#3513902 - 02/08/12 12:46 AM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: PatrickAWilson]  
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Gambit21 Offline
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Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted By: PatrickAWilson
Put timer in an ini file to allow tweaking by the user.


I was with you until that sentence.

#3514002 - 02/08/12 04:47 AM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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RoFfan Offline
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That's not FM modding. That's AI modding, which we already do.

#3514150 - 02/08/12 02:03 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: totalspoon]  
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Lanzfeld113 Offline
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I like the idea of an AI "aiming" timer but it needs to be fixed for everyone. Hardcoded.

#3514302 - 02/08/12 05:09 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: Lanzfeld113]  
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PatrickAWilson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lanzfeld113
I like the idea of an AI "aiming" timer but it needs to be fixed for everyone. Hardcoded.


Apologies if the INI comment threw a wrench in the discussion. That was not a all the primary point. Started a new thread for AI discussions. Let the SE5a debate continue smile.

#3514557 - 02/08/12 10:22 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: Lanzfeld113]  
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Gambit21 Offline
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Pacific Northwest
Originally Posted By: Lanzfeld113
I like the idea of an AI "aiming" timer but it needs to be fixed for everyone. Hardcoded.


Yep

#3514570 - 02/08/12 10:36 PM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: SC/JG_Oesau]  
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RedVonHammer Offline
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Norway
Originally Posted By: SC/JG_Oesau
FM modding pulls apart communities rather than bring them together IMHO


Couldnt agree more!

#3516255 - 02/11/12 06:00 AM Re: New SE5a is Awful! [Re: Dart]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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EinsteinEP  Offline
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Tucson, AZ
Originally Posted By: Dart
Quote:
The Se5a is still a lethal weapon .... as long as you keep your speed and energy up.


QFT.

I long ago dropped the idea of "Turn" or "Boom and Zoom" fighters, as it's a road to ruin.

All fighters are energy fighters.

The difference is the energy band they work best within. A number of P-51's were lost in Korea attempting to shoot down the ultra uber Po-2 as an extreme example. The Mustang pilots were attempting to shoot them down by flying very low at the limits of stall and manuever against plywood biplanes.

That didn't mean the Po-2 was superior to the Mustang, or that the Mustang was modelled incorrectly.

In WWI planes it can be really dramatic - the Nieuport 11 is a fine aircraft and very lethal as designed when matched against aircraft within the same energy band. However, how it acted within that zone was different depending on its adversary.

Against a Taube the N11 was best served in slashing attacks, as the Taube lived in a lower energy "home" and matching it would put the N11 below its own best performance envelope. Against an Eindecker it could both outclimb and out turn - dealer's choice, as the energy bands weren't that far off. Against the first Albatros it was forced to carefully manage its energy and try to get the Hun to bring his plane down to the N11 energy "home," as it was below where the Albatros best worked at.

The SE5a isn't a dog by any stretch, or inferior. It just has a higher energy level demand than the Pfalz for a host of reasons. The Pfalz driver who's thinking will always try to get the SE5a to expend too much of his energy while staying within his own optimum range.

DR1's, of course, are hilarious and it's clear why they were produced in such small numbers and quickly removed from the front lines. Once a fellow in a peer aircraft realizes it's a one trick pony they're not too much of a threat - the smart English or French pilot that spots one early can dictate the fight. Loads of fun in multiplayer taking a stab at a DR1, flying well out of his gun range, climbing, and either ignoring him as one climbs, letting him chase at ever increasing distances (invariably blowing his energy and making him easy prey for the SPAD he didn't see), or re-engaging. Even in a supposed "dogfight" they're relatively easy to manage if one stays within one's energy band and doesn't try to match their speed.

The flip side is true as well. I shot down the overblown DR1 in single and multiplayer in Nieuport 11's and DH2's by reversing the tactic on them, forcing them to fly too slow in an attempt to match maneuvers. Once they're within five miles an hour of stall they'll either be fair game or forced to dive away - letting the "inferior" aicraft pick up even more energy (airspeed or altitude).

+1 this ^^^

I hope folks read this and take it to heart: tactics dictate the fight, not the aircraft.


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