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#3498782 - 01/20/12 01:38 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
Politics aside, some of that is useful and accurate from your side of the fence. It is of course biased as I would expect. You call refueling "gimmick" cute, huh...a "bug" we exploited. If this posting was about battling over who did what when, I would join in. It is not. Your sour appraisal of what we have done is as insulting as you intended. Keep your money.

Last edited by zerocinco; 01/20/12 01:57 AM.
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#3498960 - 01/20/12 05:29 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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streakeagle Offline
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The SF engine was built to be a lite sim halfway between arcade and traditional hard core sims. It did not and does not have any support for any refueling of any kind. Landings and takeoffs are barely supported. I would call trying to add refueling by using an invisible jet engine that had a negative fuel consumption rate to be a "gimmick" as I have yet to see a jet engine that excretes fuel and there is absolutely no provision for connecting with a refueling probe.

I was active in the modding community from the time the game was released to the present and was also a beta tester for WoV and WoI. I know who did what and who borrowed what from whom. I also know quite a bit more about when and why TK made the changes he did and it is arrogant of you to think YAP had any influence in his struggle to stay in business in this very small, niche market.

As for the money... too late, I bought everything in the YAP/YAP2 series. I would gladly accept a refund though if my assessment of YAP so thoroughly offends you. Missions based on historical events are great. But in the end, they are just a series of waypoints with a generic objective in a text file. What makes them interesting is how challenging they are to complete and how immersed they make you feel when you play them. You conflict yourself by emphasizing that pilots only see what's important and miss meaningless details, but then make the focus of they YAP product including lots of those details... Regardless of you banter, YAP/YAP2 provided a collection of models that weren't available anywhere else. The aircraft carriers in particular are great. At the same time, a lot of the original YAP product was repackaged/adapted from free user mods.

You have repeatedly criticized the game engine, especially as new revisions came out, like WoI/Oct2008 and SF2, because they didn't comply with your vision. So, name another game engine that would let you make YAP as easily as you have with SF. I guarantee you can make FSX into a Vietnam era combat simulator with all of the details, realism, and immersion that is missing from the SF engine. But I also guarantee that unless you get a bank roll from a sizable company like MS or EA, you won't finish it in a decade. SF is the only simulator in recent history that covers the Vietnam era and it has been and remains almost 100% open to modifications or something like YAP would never have existed. You seem far too ungrateful to the man and game engine that gave you YAP in the first place.

YAP provides a nice extension of SF: historical missions and more models, some of which are extremely well detailed and textured. But it is just that: an extension. Without SF, all you have are lod files and mission briefings. I flew every YAP mission that worked correctly at least once. I have played SF for nearly a decade. SF2 is by far the better product and your refusal to adapt to/overcome its flaws and stick to the 30 August 2006 code base shows. The majority of the SF community moved on. Get over it already.

Last edited by streakeagle; 01/20/12 05:32 AM.

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#3499016 - 01/20/12 07:50 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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NIELS Offline
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NIELS  Offline
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The comment referring refueling "gimmick" cute is ridiculous concerning air order of battle since post Korea to present day! It has been and remains one of the most important practiced and actual battle events that takes place in peace time and war. Pre and post air refueling support for CAP, Strike, CAS, and most all other support assets is a major player, to downplay its importance is a slap in the face to the tanker community. I assume your addressing the simulation world vs reality?.....I hope so. Regarding your statement about immersion, AR could/can do nothing less but expand this in any air combat sim. If mission parameters were such that fuel capacity was greatly affected by weapon load regarding gross takeoff weight pre strike AR would be a must! Trying to get on the boom or drogue before 'BINGO' fuel in order to support the strike package and not have to RTB if unsuccessful in any sim would greatly add to the immersion factor. The only thing missing from todays air combat sims is the ability/need to tank when necessary to go to and from a SAR situation in order to remain on station long enough for helo rescue....that would be a cool addition!

Keep up the good work YAP/RS team - I hope you find a platform to continue your expertise. Thanks for taking on one of the two wars that nobody really wants to approach or talk about. God bless all who served and continue to serve.

Vr NIELS

Last edited by NIELS; 01/20/12 07:52 AM.
#3499082 - 01/20/12 10:59 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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digger52 Offline
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digger52  Offline
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my input.

Firstly unintentionally i suspect because of frustation or otherwise, the initial post comes across as very frustrated , angry etc.

Not helpfull for input but as its your business I can understand.

I have been playing ( i emphasise playing as I dont like complex sims as I want have fun) sims since I had a commodore 64.

Of all the lite sims I like the strikefighter series the best. why?

easy to get into, love the aircraft models and to me it is an air combat sim, not necessarily an accurate flight sim.

I have all the current flight sims but go back to strikefighters 2 each time.

Now where to take your business?
Some questions.

1/ How large so you want your area of conflict? AA2 and Take on helicopters which I both have seem very open but the areas of interest are small. Would not suit either Vietnam or korea.
2/ FSX - I have many additions to FSX but not sure it supports or will support combat
3/ Someone suggested COD, and although I have declined to use further until they fix some fundementals, it could be a possibility in the future.
4/ DCS/ LOMAC , too much to learn
5/ Strikefighters 2 - Will be interested to see where North Atlantic takes it as I have the rest of the campaigns plus terrain mods and DLC. It is what I spend my money on. Is it sensible to rule it out even though you are frustrated ?

#3499105 - 01/20/12 12:34 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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tagTaken2 Offline
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Gone
Maybe repost in community hall, or write an article on the subject of what people are looking for, and have a poll or discussion?

It seems as though you're mostly getting the opinions of people who fly Thirdwire products right now.

The bar has been raised significantly by DCS, RoF and (if the kinks are ever removed) CloD, in terms of aircraft feel, and obviously graphically. If the graphics are sub-par, the sim better have something going for it, such as outstanding dynamic campaign, stellar multiplayer, or a scenario that no-one else has done (Jet Thunder, pull your finger out) realistically (Combat Helo, Hello?).

#3499122 - 01/20/12 01:12 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 1,524
Keithb77 Offline
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Keithb77  Offline
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UK
I wonder if the Jet Thunder people would be interested in collaborating?
They have a modern engine, which works for naval conflict, and are closer to the adrenaline side than the techno-button side, so should be a good fit.
Jet Thunder - Vietnam (=YAP rehosted)
Jet Thunder - Korea
Jet Thunder - Desert Storm
Cheers,
Keith

#3499358 - 01/20/12 05:03 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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Posts: 942
8 L.E.I.N. Offline
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8 L.E.I.N.  Offline
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Detroit, Michigan USA
Sorry Streak, but that dog don't hunt. Will you people ever learn to leave Pandora's box alone?

Grateful? Yessiree, YAP ceratinly is. Without TK we would have been denied hundreds of hours of enjoyment. No doubt.

However, yep, wait for it....If you know the five W's then you also know that the man YAP should be grateful to, the same man who gave his blessing, go forth and multiply, has repeatedly refused to answer emails, and has given no support when asked for it personally.

No heads up, no "hey guys I am about to hard code this or that and heres why. Sorry it screws your mods." Nothing. Not a word. Surprise. Find it, fix it on your own. Or, wait for the fixes and read them in the forums.

Logical behavior for one who gave consent to use any and all SF/WOV material. But you know that.

Granted a question or three has been answered in the TW forum and even you have answered an email from me, thanks again. But thats as far as it goes. But you know that.

He has refused collaboration on any project involving YAP or RS. Thats his right. An explanation would be nice. But you know that.

A combat game about Vietnam without Helicopters? WTHIT? You cant damn YAP for coming up with that "Cute Gimmick". Whats next? Kill TV? Gonna make a lot of VTOL folks unhappy with that one. I did see a mod somewhere that did it without TV. Maybe thats it.

And you just dont get it. Because there is no provisions to play "refueling", YAP made up that cute little "gimmick" to the joy of many a player. 2011 killed the refueling "gimmick". But you know that. I wonder why. I hope because he's making one of his own.

Populate carriers? Here, have a deadcat, put a deadplane on a carrier deck, hell put the whole air wing on the carrier with deadcats. "Cute Gimmick"

Night carrier landings? You simply cannot light a ground object like a carrier. Hmmmm "Cute Gimmick".

And your words, "...adapt to/overcome its flaws..." regarding SF2, you made the point for me.

Patch, Patch, Patch and so on and so on... will it ever end, for some wiggly water and spic n' span paint jobs that I personally cannot see any difference (maybe I need a new machine or specs).

We can go on and on with this like so many Pixxing contests. I'll get over it already if you will.

Have a nice day.

Regards,

Mike

#3499396 - 01/20/12 05:38 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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8 L.E.I.N. Offline
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8 L.E.I.N.  Offline
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Detroit, Michigan USA
Got to keep peeking under that lid. Pretty soon its going to take Jesus and two angels to shut it.

Well Malibu, if you are a sworn staffer of TW like Streak, please point them out. No one on staff at TW did for YAP in the past, if they had, we would not be here right now, present and future remain to be seen.

We having fun yet?

Got things to do, Ya'll play nice now.

#3499416 - 01/20/12 05:56 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: 8 L.E.I.N.]  
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malibu43 Offline
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malibu43  Offline
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SoCal
Originally Posted By: 8 L.E.I.N.
Got to keep peeking under that lid. Pretty soon its going to take Jesus and two angels to shut it.

Well Malibu, if you are a sworn staffer of TW like Streak, please point them out. No one on staff at TW did for YAP in the past, if they had, we would not be here right now, present and future remain to be seen.

We having fun yet?

Got things to do, Ya'll play nice now.


Well, I deleted my post. While I initially thought I knew some things in zerocinco's post to be inaccurate, after careful re-reading I admit it is simply my opinion that they are inaccurate. And arguing about opinions over the internet is about as constructive and fun as kicking yourself in the b@lls over and over again.

Last edited by malibu43; 01/20/12 05:58 PM.

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#3499445 - 01/20/12 06:31 PM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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zerocinco Offline
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Tchepone, Laos
This was to be a discussion about what YOU wanted to happen as a guide to where we should go. Aside from Mr. Eagle's lengthy and banal defense of his hobby, it has been that. The engines you suggest, we have looked at or will. The collaborations you have suggested, we have investigated and still will.

We think telling a story inside your mind using your computer can be a legitimate form of entertainment. Someone will do what we have attempted better someday. As Mr. Eagle had to descend to buying our models since he doesn't have Max, we have to rely upon a C++ programmer because we do not have those skills. Thirdwire was the easiest to modify.

We certainly don't argue with Thirdwire's move to secure their models. Ours are also stolen by the same process. We do not argue with Thirdwire's ownership of their creation or marketing plan for the future. Mr. Eagle's own "community" has been up in arms about the various changes as they come out. We are concerned about how those changes effect us. We want to ask our market where to go rather than people like Mr. Eagle.

Our decision is made. We cannot follow Thirdwire's changes and still tell real stories. So we must adjust. And thanks to those of you who offered thoughtful positive and negative suggestions. We are looking at them.

We would like to finish Rising Sun because we have dozens of models finished and waiting for release. We will make both RS and YAP playable on any PC. We are looking at other projects. After Rising Sun, the essentials of a Korean Phase would all be in place. No promises, though.

#3499852 - 01/21/12 01:11 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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NIELS Offline
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Sweet! Looking forward to the future.

God speed YAP/RS team

NIELS clapping

#3499890 - 01/21/12 02:05 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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BlackEagle Offline
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To the YAP/RS team,

I would like to say THANK YOU!! for the many long hours & hard work you all have put into YAP/RS. I love flying the SF/WoXX series because it's simple!! (no knock on the hard core sims) One day I hope to upgrade to the SF2 series. Both are enjoyable BECAUSE it's an open sim. Just like IL2, I like the fact there are MANY 3rd party missions, campaigns, skins, etc, etc, etc. This keeps OUR small world alive & make these sims more enjoyable.

I really do hope that RS is completed to the end of WW2.

BlackEagle (formally Hotrodss)

#3502170 - 01/24/12 02:29 AM Re: A discussion on the future of YAP and Flt Sims [Re: zerocinco]  
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Icarus999 Offline
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Meh.... Streak is a F-4 fanatic like myself... and thirdwire is the only serious F-4 sim out there... hence his loyalty. The changes TK has made to the environment system effect much more that cloud height they effect cloud density and coverage as well as horizon distance. The main problem is that TK has "downgraded" the only available purchase download of the game the the current patch level... meaning that new customers are stuck buying a #%&*$# version of the game.

If you were able to work out a deal with him to allow you to purchase and sell hard copies of the original game and patch them to the level you see fit ( Feb/June 2010) that would be a solution.


Also I suggest you guys find a way to put an end to the bad blood that exists between YAP and certain key members of the modding community... because the feud is not doing anyone any good. - Just my 2 cents.

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