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#3485709 - 01/02/12 12:51 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
max2012
Member
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Member
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 481
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Still can Dvina! I can try to intercept the Dvina SR-71 The question may Dvina Stealth intercept or may not! Dvina can F-117 Stealth interception or not! 
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#3485863 - 01/02/12 11:15 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: max2012]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
vintorez
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
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My question to the Dvina?
How to use the "doghouse" and why do I need?
Not simulated, and probably won't be. RTFM and RTF previous posts!
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#3485873 - 01/02/12 12:07 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Hpasp]
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
vintorez
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 108
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Tried to intercept SR-71 using Dvina several times - and a few tactical conclusions: 1) Lack of I87V can, in principle, be overcome. By the way, I have discovered a what I call 'do-it-yourself I87V'. Press and hold the mouse button at A screen as if you were to adjust the range, then change screen to Q and move mouse (still holding the button) left-right so that target altitude could remain constant. Nothing hard, can be done even with a fast-mover like SR-71 (not to mention BUFFs)... 2) ...if only it were of any use.  Our new Habu is a bit more intelligent than the bird we got used to bring down using Volkhov. There is a Hpasp's surprise (unannounced) for us FCOs, but nevertheless closer to SR-71's real behaviour. After reviewing several AARs you will see that after our launch the SR-71 changes altitude randomly. This makes any UPR/K guidance a real guess, which could be accepted as a baseline for future trials... 3) ...if only the missile could let itself, as Lieste wrote above, be intercepted by SR-71.:) Gap in agility between 11D and 20D/5Ya23 famillies is clearly seen. No 11DKU missile fired in UPR/K towards SR-71 ever got anywhere close to range-angle intersection, and for 20D/5Ya23 it was no great feat. T/T-guided 11DKU do much better (a surprise for me), holding within the beam most of the time, including last phase. 4) With such an unreliable range solution, I would not count on Rab-ot-RV mode, and rather set 11 sec. No chaff in this case.(?) K3 dismissed without explanation. To sum up - I can assess chances to hit Habu with Dvina as L I M I T E D. I wouldn't say 'none', as T/T missiles give some hope.
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#3485948 - 01/02/12 04:14 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: vintorez]
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,352
Lieste
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,352
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With the speed of the target, I'd always go for a long-range FQ shot - the aim is to approach the target from ahead rather than trying to follow it in a turn as it passes "overhead". While this means that the intercept phase is entered at a lower energy, the reduction in required turn performance, and shallower climb profile means there is a lower requirement for energy so this may come out a wash, or in favour of the slower missile at longer range.
Given the penchant for jamming, I'd also avoid attempting lead guidance, and just go for 3 point every-time... this will eliminate any residual chance of intercepting a target at close range as this is inefficient against a crossing target, but at the longest range intercept will make little difference and eliminate problems of incorrect altitude/range setting.
With the forward quarter intercept, chaff is not a problem for the fuse - the target will always be closer than chaff is - unless you have already missed. Set proximity fusing on at launch and be done with it.
The only difficulty is guessing the appropriate range for the altitude/speed/course that the SR71 has, and which can be modified after locking-on or firing. Spreading the 3 missiles over the probable range bracket should allow at least one to approach within fusing range, but actually passing close enough to kill is a harder problem.
Note that the Vietnamese only made 4 engagements against the SR71 in 1967/1968, and one was terminated without missile launch.
Of the 3 remaining engagements, against two separate flights, one missile fused and caused fragmentation damage... depending on whether you count the number of targets engaged, the number of firing systems, or the number of missiles fired, this is between 50%, 33% and 11% hit rate, but a zero kill rate. The only aircraft of this type lost were to operational accidents.
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#3485988 - 01/02/12 05:22 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: vintorez]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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1) Lack of I87V can, in principle, be overcome. By the way, I have discovered a what I call 'do-it-yourself I87V'. Press and hold the mouse button at A screen as if you were to adjust the range, then change screen to Q and move mouse (still holding the button) left-right so that target altitude could remain constant. Nothing hard, can be done even with a fast-mover like SR-71 (not to mention BUFFs)...Great!  This is what I also used to do... 2) ...if only it were of any use. sigh Our new Habu is a bit more intelligent than the bird we got used to bring down using Volkhov. There is a Hpasp's surprise (unannounced) for us FCOs, but nevertheless closer to SR-71's real behaviour. After reviewing several AARs you will see that after our launch the SR-71 changes altitude randomly. This makes any UPR/K guidance a real guess, which could be accepted as a baseline for future trials...Nope. HABU behavior is not changed. Its continuously ascending, as fuel depletes. 4) With such an unreliable range solution, I would not count on Rab-ot-RV mode, and rather set 11 sec. No chaff in this case.(?) K3 dismissed without explanation.HABU flights had no chaffers before, just the BUFFs got this advantage. 
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#3485992 - 01/02/12 05:29 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Lieste]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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Note that the Vietnamese only made 4 engagements against the SR71 in 1967/1968, and one was terminated without missile launch.
Of the 3 remaining engagements, against two separate flights, one missile fused and caused fragmentation damage... depending on whether you count the number of targets engaged, the number of firing systems, or the number of missiles fired, this is between 50%, 33% and 11% hit rate, but a zero kill rate. The only aircraft of this type lost were to operational accidents.
As we know, that the SR71 RCS is too small for burn-through over jamming (and HABU used to jam), I would assume, that Radio Proxy Fuse was armed by 11sec.
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#3486083 - 01/02/12 08:23 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Lieste]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
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We do know that the one confirmed successful interception was FQ, yet still resulted in a detonation behind the target due to closure rates and geometry. What is FQ?
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#3486463 - 01/03/12 10:58 AM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: Vulture]
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
piston79
Member
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Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,011
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So has anyone been able to shoot down a B-52 using T/T? Check what fellow SIM does: 1xF4 and 4xB52s. 4:40am 19th of December 1972
Night-1, Wave-3 of the Linebacker-II raid against Hanoi.
Targets:
Kinh No Industrial Complex - 6 cells of B-52s (18)
Gia Lam Rail Road Yard - 4 cells of B-52s (12)
Hanoi Radio - 7 cells of B-52s (21)
Supporting force:
36 F-4 Phantom-II
6 F-105G Wild Weasel
2 EB-66B Destroyer
2 EA-6B Prowler
1 EC-135 Looking Glass
1 EC-121H AWACS.
SA-75M Dvina
16:08, B-52 number 1 of cell-2 bombed Hanoi Radio.
16:20, B-52 number 2 of cell-2 bombed Hanoi Radio.
16:36, B-52 number 3 of cell-2 bombed Hanoi Radio.
17:05, B-52 number 1 of cell-1 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
17:23, B-52 number 2 of cell-1 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
17:42, B-52 number 3 of cell-1 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
18:04, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 19km
Target azimuth: 314°
Target elevation: 17°
Target altitude: 5.9km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
18:37, B-52 number 1 of cell-4 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
18:41, B-52 number 2 of cell-4 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
18:46, B-52 number 1 of cell-3 bombed Hanoi Radio.
18:59, Missile exploded on Channel-1
F-4 number 2 of pair-1 blocking Noi Bai airfield killed by SAM. (miss distance: 26m)
19:02, B-52 number 2 of cell-3 bombed Hanoi Radio.
19:11, B-52 number 3 of cell-4 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
19:19, B-52 number 3 of cell-3 bombed Hanoi Radio.
19:45, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 13km
Target azimuth: 308°
Target elevation: 53°
Target altitude: 10.4km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
20:19, Missile exploded on Channel-2
B-52 number 1 of cell-1 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 28m)
21:37, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-3
Target distance: 15km
Target azimuth: 228°
Target elevation: 43°
Target altitude: 10.6km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
22:28, Missile exploded on Channel-3
B-52 number 2 of cell-1 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 22m)
22:34, B-52 number 1 of cell-5 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
22:42, B-52 number 2 of cell-5 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
22:51, B-52 number 3 of cell-5 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
25:22, B-52 number 1 of cell-6 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
25:26, B-52 number 2 of cell-6 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
25:31, B-52 number 3 of cell-6 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
29:33, B-52 number 1 of cell-7 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
29:50, B-52 number 2 of cell-7 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
30:13, B-52 number 3 of cell-7 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
30:53, B-52 number 1 of cell-8 bombed Hanoi Radio.
31:08, B-52 number 2 of cell-8 bombed Hanoi Radio.
31:24, B-52 number 3 of cell-8 bombed Hanoi Radio.
31:47, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 6km
Target azimuth: 281°
Target elevation: 15°
Target altitude: 1.8km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
33:14, B-52 number 1 of cell-9 bombed Hanoi Radio.
33:29, B-52 number 2 of cell-9 bombed Hanoi Radio.
33:45, B-52 number 3 of cell-9 bombed Hanoi Radio.
33:46, B-52 number 1 of cell-10 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
34:05, B-52 number 2 of cell-10 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
34:26, B-52 number 3 of cell-10 bombed Kinh No Industrial Complex.
34:55, B-52 number 1 of cell-13 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
34:55, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 20km
Target azimuth: 274°
Target elevation: 30°
Target altitude: 10.4km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
35:11, B-52 number 2 of cell-13 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
35:26, B-52 number 3 of cell-13 bombed Gia Lam Railroad Yard.
35:43, Missile exploded on Channel-2
B-52 number 1 of cell-10 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 25m)
36:11, V-750VKU 11DKU Missile launched on Channel-3
Target distance: 19km
Target azimuth: 245°
Target elevation: 32°
Target altitude: 10.6km
SNR mode: 55km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)
37:04, Missile exploded on Channel-3
B-52 number 2 of cell-10 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 24m)
Total, SNR On Air Time: 1min 11sec
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#3486730 - 01/03/12 06:33 PM
Re: SAM Simulator
[Re: piston79]
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
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Idea... How about load 2 types of missiles for Ashuluk, Ustka? (3 x 5Ya23 + 3 h B-...) ? It should be good for creating scenarios in future also... In Hungary, the rule was that, each battery can have only one type of missiles. All the batteries West of the Danube were equipped with the V-759 5Ya23 (Guideline Mod.5), while everybody else got the less capable V-755U 20DSU (Guideline Mod.3). Wonder, how could you select between 2 types of missiles (3+3) with the Volhov. 
Last edited by Hpasp; 01/03/12 06:34 PM.
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Exodus
by RedOneAlpha. 04/18/24 05:46 PM
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