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#3484503 - 12/31/11 12:13 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Freycinet]  
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Force10 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Never in the history of flight simming have so many cared so much about a flight simulator they care so little for. I guess worthwhile pursuits are in short supply for some...

Great to see the old Il-2 again. Hope the mice won't be biting chunks out of its wings this time round. smile



I guess that's because never in the history of flight simming has a game been hyped so much and fallen so short. May also be because a lot of the folks that bought it are still waiting for the patch that makes it fun to play, and come here and post since there is no point in playing just yet. (ie single player)


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#3484883 - 12/31/11 06:27 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
They said that about the landscape in the early CLOD sceenshots, turned out it WAS the clod landscape!

And i see FSAA still doesn't work in Russia.


Well technically, the screen-shots shown earlier "from the tools" had a similar text overlay, lacked some rendering functions and showed a low resolution terrain texture without a height map. So, it is fairly safe to assume that these shots also come from the tools.

If the Clod landscape is defined as simply one of the textures - we've had the landscape for many months before release - ever since modders took a terrain tile posted in one of the interviews and integrated it into Il-2.

However, I find the existence of a topography (ie. hills) in CoD to be far superior to the old EAW days (which lacked such a feature), and I also like things like trees and water... so I tend to define the CloD landscape as including those things (and I thus notice when they're missing)...

Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Never in the history of flight simming have so many cared so much about a flight simulator they care so little for. I guess worthwhile pursuits are in short supply for some...

Great to see the old Il-2 again. Hope the mice won't be biting chunks out of its wings this time round. smile



I guess that's because never in the history of flight simming has a game been hyped so much and fallen so short. May also be because a lot of the folks that bought it are still waiting for the patch that makes it fun to play, and come here and post since there is no point in playing just yet. (ie single player)


I guess fun is a very subjective thing... I suspect that a lot of people will be happier with bigger guns. As for me - flying around the country side is good enough (and it is nice to have such good damage models for the occasional moment where I want to hum the theme from Battle of Britain).

There were actually several which had more hype and greater disappointments: A number weren't released (Janes's A-10c, Sierra's ACEX and Desert Fighters, the Frogfoot sim based on Flanker 2.0), several were released with major content missing (eg. B-17II, Janes's Attack Squadron) and others were released without mission editors (Ka-52:TA, Janes's IAF) or with bizarrely/unexpectedly lacking historical content (eg. FS:SDOE, Eurofighter Typhoon) or fraudulent advertising (budget versions of Search and Rescue, the North American Ef-2000 V2.0 special edition)...

As for the Il-2 series - whether it be luftwhiners over the FW-190 vs. La-5FN, the buggy release of Forgotten Battles or the legally truncated development of Pacific Fighters... this has happened time and again - and each time we've had a fairly decent product in the end - and one far superior to the alternatives.

#3485054 - 01/01/12 12:26 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Flying the Il-2 is about as useful as an under water trampoline without the armies and ground war present. They can't even get a limited scope air war right, doesn't inspire much hope for a ground war.

Better have it, and both better shine, no benefit of any doubts and no mercy purchase this time around.

Last edited by Nodak01; 01/01/12 12:26 AM.
#3485173 - 01/01/12 03:32 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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bisher Offline
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It's the me generation be sure.......

#3485254 - 01/01/12 04:54 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Freycinet]  
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ATAG_Ribbs Offline
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Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Never in the history of flight simming have so many cared so much about a flight simulator they care so little for.




Never have truer words been spoken! Well said Freycinet. As for the Sequel... We all know the short comings of Clod...and how it hasent lived up to expectations, but all the constant negativity and complaining isnt doing anyone any good. The Devs are working hard to try and give this game some sort of resemblence to what was advertised on the packege. I understand that people feel cheated by MG and some of their decisions regarding this sim, but None of us were there behind the scenes and truely know what happened when Oleg decided to leave. The game somehow changed drastically from screenshots we had seen earlier in the development. I have a feeling that the rest of the dev had to pick up the pieces and make the best of what they had to work with to try and salvage this title that so many of us have been anticipating fo so many years! I am just as frustrated as the rest of you guys... But try and look at the bigger picture.. Luthier has said that the squel will follow the same path as the original IL2. Their decision go back to the Eastern front is almost certainly a buisness decision towards their most loyal core fanbase to generate revenue to continue work on the future of the sim. If you decide to not support MG, and future of the sim, you are only hurting yourself. Take a look around ... There arent many companys making flight sims these days, especially ones with this much realism and damage model.... Grab a cold beverage of your choice.. jump on the ATAG server and enjoy the ride.. looks like there are some good things to come.


352ndRibbs

#3485346 - 01/01/12 10:33 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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If Luthier was more straight with us then he would get more leeway back, i dont mind if its going to take time to fix but i dont want lame excuses and BS.
its happened so many times so far that now after 8 months we know almost nothing of what is going on. what the status of the patch? whats in the next patch?

How long is it going take to fix the fundamental, standard features of a flight sim?

FM
DM
CEM
AI
EXE crashes

forget everything else, just those 5 things.

If Luthier and his crack team of programmers cant fix them, then it doesn't matter if they are the only guys making WW2 flight sims because what they are making is crap.

#3485359 - 01/01/12 11:55 AM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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HogDriver Offline
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They aren't getting my money again.

It's like CLOD was a miscarriage and the couple is trying to concieve again, hoping for better results the next time.


I refuse to buy a flight sim that I have no interest in playing, on the off chance that MAYBE someday they'll make the one I really want to play.

#3485365 - 01/01/12 12:33 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: HogDriver]  
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Bandy Offline
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Originally Posted By: HogDriver
...It's like CLOD was a miscarriage and the couple is trying to concieve again, hoping for better results the next time.
Oh, that's just cold man! True, but so cold...


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#3485383 - 01/01/12 02:07 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
If Luthier was more straight with us then he would get more leeway back, i dont mind if its going to take time to fix but i dont want lame excuses and BS.
its happened so many times so far that now after 8 months we know almost nothing of what is going on. what the status of the patch? whats in the next patch?

How long is it going take to fix the fundamental, standard features of a flight sim?

FM
DM
CEM
AI
EXE crashes

forget everything else, just those 5 things.

If Luthier and his crack team of programmers cant fix them, then it doesn't matter if they are the only guys making WW2 flight sims because what they are making is crap.



More straight forward? It's people like you that make him not keep tabs often. They've posted they are working on all those issues. They've posted a rough outline of what they are working on and the order in which they are going to do it. They just posted what they are currently working on right before new years? WTF do you want them to post? "Hey guys, we've added 1000 lines of code today!" It's as if you think programming a complex flight sim is an exact science. I'd hate to know how much time and money they've spent trying to get people like you an enjoyable game in all those years in development. Yet you cry everyday, putting people off of it, as if you wish to kill it. As someone that gets "inside" the game so to speak, this is heads over heels more ambitious than anything else out there. It's not even close.

I wish you would of been around when ROF was released. It took almost a year just to get a somewhat stable MP. It was patch after patch of just waiting in COOP mode (the only mode available at the time) connecting to a server just to have the master browser crash or server, just about the time you'd finally be able to start a new round and actually fly your plane. Then there was a ROF.exe (a game crash that happened like clock-work every few hours in MP - and usually triggered by a spawning event). This lasted for over 2 years! And ROF was in no way shape or form even close to some of the stuff they are trying to pull off with IL2COD. There's more buttons to control/assign in the cockpit of a JU88 than the entire control section in all of ROF for EVERYTHING. I don't even want to get into the game engine limitations that will probably never be addressed for ROF. Lets not even get into the FM or DM. Heck they finally released some sort of engine smoke on damage. They don't even have cockpits that can be damaged yet. This is a game I have over $250 in with the planes I've bought and finally gave up on waiting for things to be fixed. They'd rather sell you a scarf, fuel gauge, or compass.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you're gonna call it crap, then you better compare it to the only other popular modern flight sim out there and realize they are all full of problems that will take time to fix. And at 8 months in, from a MP guy, this is far far better than what I went through the 1st 8 months of ROF where I patched the game time after time to play it and shelve it every time.

At least I've been able to play IL2COD online from day one, even in it's buggy state.

#3485405 - 01/01/12 02:50 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Most of what you say Bliss is right about ROF, i was there at the start, i know too.
What sets ROF and CLOD apart is the way Jason and Luthier communicate with us.

Let me cast your mind back to before release at the kiev show, we had lots of vids showing piss poor performance and stutters over land right?
Luthier and Oleg told us not to worry! that the awful performance and stutters were because of the PCs having 2MB of RAM and as soon as they get 4MB of RAM everything we will OK!!

Then the game is released and guess what? piss poor performance and stutters even with 8GB of the fastest RAM on planet earth.

If that wasn't blatant BS then i dont know what is.

Ive read every post Jason has made about ROF and never once has he led me to believe he has been anything but honest and up front about ROFs problems, thats why ive never posted complaints or moans on the ROF forum.

Luthier has on the other hand carried on with the patch padding and delay tactics ever since.

Bliss, the truth is i beleve Jason and Luthier i dont.

#3485407 - 01/01/12 03:02 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Most of what you say Bliss is right about ROF, i was there at the start, i know too.
What sets ROF and CLOD apart is the way Jason and Luthier communicate with us.

Let me cast your mind back to before release at the kiev show, we had lots of vids showing piss poor performance and stutters over land right?
Luthier and Oleg told us not to worry! that the awful performance and stutters were because of the PCs having 2MB of RAM and as soon as they get 4MB of RAM everything we will OK!!

Then the game is released and guess what? piss poor performance and stutters even with 8GB of the fastest RAM on planet earth.

If that wasn't blatant BS then i dont know what is.

Ive read every post Jason has made about ROF and never once has he led me to believe he has been anything but honest and up front about ROFs problems, thats why ive never posted complaints or moans on the ROF forum.

Luthier has on the other hand carried on with the patch padding and delay tactics ever since.

Bliss, the truth is i beleve Jason and Luthier i dont.





I think you better go back and re-read what you have exaggerated in your mind. Neither Oleg nor Luthier stated that not to worry. Oleg was upset that there were only mid range PC's at the show, sure. But if you read virtually every single update thread virtually everyone of them was stated as very much a WIP. I think you are confusing off the street posts for posts from the dev team. It's just like all the people saying how hyped up IL2COD was. From who? Would it happen to be all the advertisements? How about the big release on ubisoft's forum? Perhaps it was that one trailer that was released for IL2COD where the 1st 10 seconds in the video had this huge caption reading "WIP game footage". If that doesn't give you the hint of the century, I don't know how much more you could get led by the hand. There were many tells and hints throughout the dev cycle basically stating there isn't a computer made that could run the game properly. Heck, I think even Luthier said something along the lines of this is a sim built for PC's from 2014 - but don't quote me on that.

Unlike you, I believe everything he says because he's yet to lead me astray. But, I also paid attention to what him and Oleg was saying the whole time. I actually know what WIP or place holder means, unlike what appears to be a vocal majority of people who obviously never followed along Friday after Friday of updates.

Last edited by ATAG_Bliss; 01/01/12 03:02 PM.
#3485408 - 01/01/12 03:05 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Oleg bailed the day after signing copys of 50 collectors edition of CLOD. that tells you everything about CLOD.

#3485409 - 01/01/12 03:08 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Are people not allowed to get different jobs? He went on to something he's been pursuing for a while now - photography/art. Even better, he went on to a company that adds both of those worlds together with software. I don't blame him. He's probably finally making a decent living. Is that such a bad thing?

#3485410 - 01/01/12 03:12 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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falstaff Offline
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So much is still brittle and high-pitched. Near hysterical. A few reasoned arguments, then when the high grounds starts to slip out from under certain folks it's back to ...troll...you're an idiot, insults...[admin edit: no personal attacks].

There are gaping holes in a lot of what has been delivered, and said, by Luthier et al...and a fair amount of patronising 'we-ll-take-our-football-if-you're-not-careful-and-play-elsewhere-we're-all-you've-got' ..quite embarassing when you think about it. And that's not forgetting the banjos.

The RoF is a red-herring.

The fact that people defend this, and even worse, blame people for pointing out the flaws, deficiencies, and contradictions of CLOd and its dev is...well...staggering....truly breath-taking.

The basic points get diluted down by so much cap-doffing faux 'respect for you elders and betters' and cul-de-sacs into 'dont you know how complicated it is?' it is ridiculous.

Straight question: how many of the more ardent and vocal supporters have been involved in any form of complex computer software dev or project management or testing? How many of you have the *least clue* of what you are actually talking about? I'm not talking about how much experience of games-playing, or sims, or keyboard commandoing thru the early hours, I mean *actual software dev*, of any sort?

This constant defending defending of the indefensible is just...indef...indefe....inde

There are some games where the fans are so entrenched and nuts, you wonder what it's true enemies must be like smile

Ben



#3485413 - 01/01/12 03:22 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: ATAG_Bliss]  
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Originally Posted By: ATAG_Bliss
Are people not allowed to get different jobs? He went on to something he's been pursuing for a while now - photography/art. Even better, he went on to a company that adds both of those worlds together with software. I don't blame him. He's probably finally making a decent living. Is that such a bad thing?


Not for Oleg, like i say some people payed 50 quid.

CLOD had awful reviews from every flight sim mag or web site.

CLOD has NOBODY(relatively) playing online.

CLOD has no online wars for sqds.

CLOD forums everywhere have the same complicates and moans.


And that is the cold hard truth.

#3485417 - 01/01/12 03:27 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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ATAG_Bliss Offline
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Sounds just like ROF on release doesn't it? Thanks for making my point for me!

Oh and btw, I just checked - there's more people online in IL2COD right now than ROF. How bad is ROF online then? Must be awful if more people are playing a buggy POS game over one with 3 years release eh? lol

Again, thanks!

#3485418 - 01/01/12 03:30 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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Bliss, who bleedin cares about ROF?

#3485419 - 01/01/12 03:37 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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falstaff Offline
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The RoF comparison is spurious, as has been said many times...and even if taken seriously, does not compute. And that's mostly the opinion of Clod fans, not critics.

So let's forget that one once and for all and stick tot he subject.

BTW, interestingly, I've noticed that squadron members and regular online flyers (and server hosts) seem particularly immune to criticism of the off-line game. Perhaps because they play almost exclusively on-line? And therefore have little idea of just how dismal the off-line game is? Just a thought.

More than anything, this game reminds me of an online client. As such, it should have been advertised as such.

Ben

#3485421 - 01/01/12 03:40 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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It's the only other modern flight sim out there with MP that has been released recently and it went through the exact same thing we are seeing right now with IL2COD. In other words, it's another flight sim that went through the same thing and gradually got fixed. And those impatient, whining posters, did the same thing and didn't help the genre. Same thing you are doing right now. I could be wrong, but the more developmental money these guys get, (just guessing here), more than likely the faster we'll have all the fixes we want. Why people like yourself are trying to turn away those from the genre is baffling to me.

I could care less about $50 for a game.. I spent thousands in PC components, Joystick/HOTAS, Track IR, even a fancy desk so I could enjoy one of my hobbies which is flight simming. And the more people like you around, the more of a chance that there won't be any funding left for anything in the genre to begin with. That's the last thing I want. If you can't take the developer's word or at the very least try to read it and realize they are working on this title, then I don't know what to tell you. But I would appreciate the constant trashing you do over the same issues everyone already knows about, to lighten up a bit. The only thing you're hurting is yourself in the long run..

#3485426 - 01/01/12 03:47 PM Re: New Pics posted of WIP for sequel [Re: Force10]  
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falstaff Offline
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Lightening up isn't the issue, or any sub-Oprah sprawl. It's the game (or lack of one) and defending the indefensible.

And yes, as it happens, I think saving people from possibly spending a lot to play this game *is* reasonably worthwhile. I know quite a few who spent hundreds or thousands to upgrade to play this game. More fool them, you might say, being cynical. I mostly feel sorry for them, or at least sympathetic.

And in their shoes, I'd feel very wary about future developments. Fair point?

I dont see too many glowing with confidence about the future direction of the game, and to bounce it back onto the critics and say it is their fault is (intriguingly) insane...case-study material.

I wonder just how abnormal some reasoning cane be. Crazy optimism in spite of the facts...ok, just about...deserving of some respect....but drawing parallels with RoF or previous iterations of the game...as hope for the future in spite of all evidence to the contrary...is just...barking.

I thought recent announcements would even the most hardened fans pausing for thought with 'what the...'...but it seems anything, however silly, can be absorbed and turned into hope for the future.

The devs would benefit from some hard-headed reality checks. If that doesn't happen, or everything is lapped up with unthinking thanks, then...you (collectively) get what you deserve. But I'd rather hope that people are more critical of some aspects, and pressure the devs to fix what is most needed and most broken before moving swiftly on...

But I'd still feel sympathy for those that have shelled out money to upgrade/play.

Ben


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