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#3475538 - 12/16/11 10:56 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Chivas]  
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Force10 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Chivas, do you really think Luthier is going to finish CLOD?


I don't know if they have the manpower to further develop the COD campaigns, but patches in the next year should allow for easier use of Triggers for modders to build very complex campaigns for any theater, including COD. Everything else, AI, Commands, FM, DM, Graphic, Sound, etc etc is a function of the game engine, which will be in a continual state of updating and adding features, which will apply to all theaters, COD, BfM, The Med, The Pacific, etc. If you look at the game engine you will see that there are number of features that future proofs it to allow for control of ground vehicles, and ships, etc, which will make it possible to do a combined forces sim after all the theaters are complete.


I think campaigns really should get some attention, try and stay with me on this. I was asking how many units were sold earlier, but there is no way to know so I will use theoretical numbers here:

Lets say CLOD sold 20,000 copies. Of those 20,000, maybe 10% percent of folks have gone online. That would mean that 2,000 folks are flying online, I have never seen more than 18 or so online, but I'm on a roll so don't stop me now! That means that the remaining 18,000 customers have only the single player experience to base wether they buy the sequel or not. We all may have disagreed on a lot of things in CLOD, but I think we all pretty much agree the single player is very lack luster and broken in some ways. Sure their is the FMB but a lot of folks don't want to make their own campaigns, takes the surprise and mystery out of it.

This is why I think they should beef up the singleplayer experience a notch.


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#3475541 - 12/16/11 10:58 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Buddye1]  
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Originally Posted By: Buddye1
I stand by my experience. No matter what approach and how modular two systems (two games old and new) may be planned, the developer still has two systems. Even systems with different data (maps, A/C, missions, campaigns, etc) will have different issues and problems. The old system is not free and issues and problems will have to be analyzed and investigated using skilled programmers. Problems/issues will occur on the old system and not the new system and the other way around as well. I do not believe that the COD/BOM software management team has the money, skills, or manpower to fully support two released systems effectively. They will need to reduce support and try a force the Players to purchase the new system.

In addition, to update COD during BOM development will result in many issues and problems on COD and not on the BOM system. Again, assigning manpower to build, integrate, test, and investigate/fix issues/problems on the old COD systems will hurt tyhe new development.

Management will do everything possible to offer new features and fixes to convince players to step up and purchase the new and much better BOM game. I can not think of a better plan if I was in charge of COD and had limited money, manpower and skills.


You'd be right if the developer were building a new game engine for the sequel, but I highly doubt that would be the case. They are rewriting portions of the game engine like the graphics, and sound, not rewriting the whole game engine. This one of the reasons that they made the game engine modular so that they could more easily change, or rewrite certain aspects. Just like you've been rewriting the ROWAN game engine for years, and still there are sections, nobody has a handle on. You know first hand how difficult it was to add a single aircraft, or get multiplayer to work in WOV, by the way were you ever successful? I haven't flown WOV for sometime, as I find multiplayer far more immersive.


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#3475543 - 12/16/11 11:00 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Chivas]  
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Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Chivas, do you really think Luthier is going to finish CLOD?


I don't know if they have the manpower to further develop the COD campaigns, but patches in the next year should allow for easier use of Triggers for modders to build very complex campaigns for any theater, including COD. Everything else, AI, Commands, FM, DM, Graphic, Sound, etc etc is a function of the game engine, which will be in a continual state of updating and adding features, which will apply to all theaters, COD, BfM, The Med, The Pacific, etc. If you look at the game engine you will see that there are number of features that future proofs it to allow for control of ground vehicles, and ships, etc, which will make it possible to do a combined forces sim after all the theaters are complete.



Ok but wouldn't you agree that its worrying that so far not one of the moduals is working as it should...not one.

#3475555 - 12/16/11 11:19 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Chivas, do you really think Luthier is going to finish CLOD?


I don't know if they have the manpower to further develop the COD campaigns, but patches in the next year should allow for easier use of Triggers for modders to build very complex campaigns for any theater, including COD. Everything else, AI, Commands, FM, DM, Graphic, Sound, etc etc is a function of the game engine, which will be in a continual state of updating and adding features, which will apply to all theaters, COD, BfM, The Med, The Pacific, etc. If you look at the game engine you will see that there are number of features that future proofs it to allow for control of ground vehicles, and ships, etc, which will make it possible to do a combined forces sim after all the theaters are complete.


I think campaigns really should get some attention, try and stay with me on this. I was asking how many units were sold earlier, but there is no way to know so I will use theoretical numbers here:

Lets say CLOD sold 20,000 copies. Of those 20,000, maybe 10% percent of folks have gone online. That would mean that 2,000 folks are flying online, I have never seen more than 18 or so online, but I'm on a roll so don't stop me now! That means that the remaining 18,000 customers have only the single player experience to base wether they buy the sequel or not. We all may have disagreed on a lot of things in CLOD, but I think we all pretty much agree the single player is very lack luster and broken in some ways. Sure their is the FMB but a lot of folks don't want to make their own campaigns, takes the surprise and mystery out of it.

This is why I think they should beef up the singleplayer experience a notch.


We really don't need to know how many copies are sold, as we don't really know how much monies have been invested so far, and how much more monies are required to keep the development in business. What we do know, is that the development is still in business, which should tells that they've made enough monies for the publishers/developers to be confident enough to support the series for now. We don't have enough info on how long they will stay in business, but the sooner they release the BfM sequel the better the chances we will see improvements in all aspects of the sim for every theater.

We all know how weak the campaigns are at the moment, mainly because of the AI, and none working Commands. The development team will continue upgrade the AI, Commands, FM, DM, in the game engine which will affect all theaters. People will not have to build their own missions and campaigns as there will be plenty of those built my modders for download, just as they were done with the original series. Unfortunately the time line for this is anyones guess.


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#3475560 - 12/16/11 11:29 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Originally Posted By: Chivas
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Chivas, do you really think Luthier is going to finish CLOD?


I don't know if they have the manpower to further develop the COD campaigns, but patches in the next year should allow for easier use of Triggers for modders to build very complex campaigns for any theater, including COD. Everything else, AI, Commands, FM, DM, Graphic, Sound, etc etc is a function of the game engine, which will be in a continual state of updating and adding features, which will apply to all theaters, COD, BfM, The Med, The Pacific, etc. If you look at the game engine you will see that there are number of features that future proofs it to allow for control of ground vehicles, and ships, etc, which will make it possible to do a combined forces sim after all the theaters are complete.



Ok but wouldn't you agree that its worrying that so far not one of the moduals is working as it should...not one.


Yes definitely it is worrying, but I would be more worried if the developer had quit, but that is not the case. Although for many reasons from financial to technical, the developer could pack it in. This is why I've tried to stay positive and counter as much as possible non-constructive comments that could drive away perspective buyers when every buyer counts at this critical time. The investment is minimal and upside huge.


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#3475579 - 12/17/11 12:02 AM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Kankkis]  
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It doesn't strain credulity that the Battle for Moscow will be developed and sold as a standalone product. Forgotten Battles being the obvious precedent. A clear evolutionary step from IL-2 and yet firmly incompatible with its progenitor, FB impenitently became the foundation for the subsequent series.

Regardless of whether BFM emerges as a 'new' product I'm certain that CoD will not be abandoned in any practical sense. Even if the development team puts a stake into CoD's heart the actual content i.e. the aircraft, ships, vehicles and maps will still be available in some form or another. Forgotten Battles was a standalone product that carried with it all the content of IL-2, a standalone BFM should (in a sane world) do the same.

Forgotten Battles was released in the afterglow of an incredibly impressive début release. Even then I remember people being quite vocal at what they saw as being forced into purchasing a 'not terribly new' product. It all worked out for the best a decade ago but today the atmosphere and market are radically different.

#3475730 - 12/17/11 07:56 AM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Lixma]  
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Originally Posted By: Lixma
It doesn't strain credulity that the Battle for Moscow will be developed and sold as a standalone product. Forgotten Battles being the obvious precedent. A clear evolutionary step from IL-2 and yet firmly incompatible with its progenitor, FB impenitently became the foundation for the subsequent series.

Regardless of whether BFM emerges as a 'new' product I'm certain that CoD will not be abandoned in any practical sense. Even if the development team puts a stake into CoD's heart the actual content i.e. the aircraft, ships, vehicles and maps will still be available in some form or another. Forgotten Battles was a standalone product that carried with it all the content of IL-2, a standalone BFM should (in a sane world) do the same.

Forgotten Battles was released in the afterglow of an incredibly impressive début release. Even then I remember people being quite vocal at what they saw as being forced into purchasing a 'not terribly new' product. It all worked out for the best a decade ago but today the atmosphere and market are radically different.


I agree Battle for Moscow will be sold as a standalone product, but with the option to merge with COD. People in the original series always bought the next sequel, but like you said, with the bad start of this series, people are not very happy, and won't be so easily inclined. The developer will IMHO also supply a patch for COD with new AI, Commands, Graphics, Sound,etc to restore confidence in simmers to keep buying the sequels. Most will probably buy the sequel anyway if they hear good reports, but its still a must that they provide the patches for a COD.


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#3476080 - 12/17/11 11:27 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Kankkis]  
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Chivas said:

>>but its still a must that they provide the patches for a COD.<<

Yes, but for how long? And when does it become a ball-ache to support legacy software and merged code-bases? Answer: sooner than you think.

And that's *if*. There's nothing to say that they 'must'.

It all sounds plausible, streamlined, and pragmatic, and logical...but then so did the feature set of the game before release...and look what happened there.

My instinct (and experience) tells me that merged and legacy code-bases are a royal PITA, the heart goes out of it fairly quickly, and most if not all dev teams likes to move onwards an dupwards, with that nice clean-slate horizon free from gripey customers and fresh sales. Maybe not straightaway, but as soon as is realistically feasible.

The view that we must support this or suffer the consequences is a fixation, a kind of fear factor.

Whenever I think of this game I immediately think: Paracetomol or Ibuprofen?

Ben

#3476203 - 12/18/11 04:06 AM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: falstaff]  
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Originally Posted By: falstaff
Chivas said:

>>but its still a must that they provide the patches for a COD.<<

Yes, but for how long? And when does it become a ball-ache to support legacy software and merged code-bases? Answer: sooner than you think.

And that's *if*. There's nothing to say that they 'must'.

It all sounds plausible, streamlined, and pragmatic, and logical...but then so did the feature set of the game before release...and look what happened there.

My instinct (and experience) tells me that merged and legacy code-bases are a royal PITA, the heart goes out of it fairly quickly, and most if not all dev teams likes to move onwards an dupwards, with that nice clean-slate horizon free from gripey customers and fresh sales. Maybe not straightaway, but as soon as is realistically feasible.

The view that we must support this or suffer the consequences is a fixation, a kind of fear factor.

Whenever I think of this game I immediately think: Paracetomol or Ibuprofen?

Ben



They would only legacy COD, if most issues are sorted, then it will be back to the normal sequel that is merged or standalone, dictated by the buyers preference. As far as the feature set of COD being incomplete, that was obviously because it was released before it was finished. Hopefully they will have done some major catchup work before the next sequel is released.


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#3476641 - 12/18/11 10:51 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Kankkis]  
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Phew. biggrin So we are getting a new standalone merged completely rewritten semi carried over game engine fully fixed for CloD but not ompatible with BfM but with old models and maps carried over with a working dynamic weather system that may or not be implemented? Someone help me out here.Ibuprofen btw.

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#3476669 - 12/18/11 11:49 PM Re: New friday update is up. [Re: Ajay]  
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Good stuff, Ajay! We get a lot of Aussie pilots coming in -- they're a good bunch.....they just fly at weird hours.....;)


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