Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
#3431729 - 11/11/11 03:46 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 157
Madman777 Offline
Member
Madman777  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 157
Austin, Texas
Great review EinsteinEP. The screenshots were pretty damn good as well.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3432651 - 11/12/11 10:03 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: Taipan]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,599
Originally Posted By: Taipan
BS1 is fully playable as it was sold.


Go give your wingman an attack order with civ traffic on. Tell your wingman to hold position. Make a new flight plan and get ABRIS VNAV to work... [admin edit: let's be nice]

#3432657 - 11/12/11 10:15 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: Frederf]  
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 990
FokkerDVIII Offline
Member
FokkerDVIII  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 990
If that truly is the case why should people have to pay for the fix? rolleyes


AMD Phenom II X4 955 3.2GHZ,MSI K9A2 CF V2 MB,6GB Corsair DDR2 Ram,EVGA Geforce GTX560 1GB,500GB Seagate drive,200GB WD drive.
#3432744 - 11/13/11 12:38 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,462
AggressorBLUE Offline
Check out my
AggressorBLUE  Offline
Check out my
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,462
Jerz
Good review, will probably pick this up down the road. Still bummed the training didn't get an upgrade though frown


I think the upgrade cost is justified, but as far as the "paying for a patch" argument goes, ED brought a lot of hate down on themselves by:

1. Calling it a patch...and a sequel; It's neither of those things. I agree that one should NEVER have to pay for a patch. To me, the term "patch" implies it's a fix for software that's currently bugged. I should never have to pay a developer to fix something they broke. That being said, BS2 isn't a patch, or just a bunch of bug fixes. Of course, it's not a full blown squeal either. Calling it both of those things* can be misleading.

2. Not telling us this was coming. By dropping the product on the community like this, there's bound to be more controversy. A heads up would have been nice. It's just very odd how this was launched.




*To me, calling it "black shark 2" implies squeal. It's more like Black Shark 1.5. Not a total overhaul, but a substantial one.

Last edited by AggressorBLUE; 11/13/11 12:39 AM.

My Rig:i5-3570k @ 4.2 GHZ W/ Corsair Hydro H110 Cooler / Asus Sabertooth Z77 Mobo / GTX 1070/ 16 Gigs DDR3 RAM / A Few SSDs, and a Bunch of HDDs / All held together by: Corsair C70 Case

Other Assets Deployed:
HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog SN#22621/CH Throttle Quad/MFG Crosswind Pedals SN#0004 smile
TrackIR TIR 5 w/ TrackClip Pro biggrin
Simpit: Obutto R3VOLUTION


#3433615 - 11/14/11 01:28 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Space Coast, USA
Yes, I suppose BS 1.5 would be more accurate, as would Flaming Cliffs 1.5 instead of 2.0, but it's a name not a real version number. After all, it's actually "DCS:A-10C with some updates and a flyable Ka-50 and no A-10C" and not Black Shark 1.03. Likewise FC2 was really "BS 1.02 without a flyable 50 and flyable planes from FC 1.12" and not FC 1.13.

However, it's their product they can call it what they want, as by any other name it smells the same.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#3434071 - 11/14/11 11:01 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Taipan Offline
Sim Addict
Taipan  Offline
Sim Addict
Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Sydney, Australia
At the end of the day all these issues with the marketing and political issues don't matter. If youre a real simmer what matters is the end result, the simulation, the immersion, the fun, and those times when you get #%&*$# scared when a Zu-23 that you missed opens up on you with fiery vengeance.

To put it simply, both DCS to me are now freakin awesome. I even purchased some TM MFDs since I now know I'll be playing it long term. They have announced their long term plans for FC3, DCS JTAC (combined arms), and Nevada will apply to all 3 as will JTAC so hopefully that will clear up future communication.

#3435042 - 11/16/11 08:14 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: Taipan]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
bogusheadbox Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
bogusheadbox  Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
Originally Posted By: Taipan
If youre a real simmer what matters is the end result, the simulation, the immersion, the fun, and those times when you get #%&*$# scared when a Zu-23 that you missed opens up on you with fiery vengeance.



I agree wholeheartedly with this taipan.

Its not the cost, or the fact we have to pay for work, i don't have a problem with that. But what i am concerned about (agreeing strongly with frederf) that we have not seen any substantial bug fixes for the KA. Do i need to mention the dual hydraulics failures? Whats the point in having a back up hydraulics system if they both go at the same time all the time. Not to mention the myriad of other faults that we thought were going to be brought into this patch/upgrade/inbetween thing.

The other issue is, what happens to black shark one now? no more support ?

NOw they are tinkering with bringing out flaming cliffs 3 as a pay on. So what happens to 2, no support ?

And the big question is the fractured community. All these different version, all requiring a pay on upgrade. Its a bit of a mess to keep all of these at the latest version only to have zero support for the poor guys that don't want to.

Not entirely happy with the progression.

I mention all of this and quoted you above as dcs really shines on multiplayer. Surely there must be a better way for ED to get remuneration for their work and not so many fractured bolt ons.


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3435071 - 11/16/11 09:49 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Taipan Offline
Sim Addict
Taipan  Offline
Sim Addict
Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Sydney, Australia
I was hoping everyone would upgrade - eventually and it wouldn't be fractured. I disagree about being a mess, its progress forward. To keep the same engine forever is not going to last computers are getting better an better and things like Battlefield graphics are drawing away customers. I'm happy that it's progressing even if there are short term splits of multiplayer. I like the end result once my install is setup good I'm having fun.

Regarding dual hydraulics failures - its not something that's affected my enjoyment of it at all.

Seriously the complexity in these sims to have errors like this is something like 2% of the features modelled.
DCS remains to me the cleanest released set of sims, in that they are very playable from day 1 with no show stopper bugs for the majority.
Even A-10C in Beta was less buggy than many games gone gold.

But your opinion is valid, people with the old games may want support. But it's rare for a game maker to still do patches many years after release. Kudos to those that do such as the IL-2 series.

#3435078 - 11/16/11 10:26 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
bogusheadbox Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
bogusheadbox  Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
the dual hydraulics failure was only one thing. You may be happy with it, but i am not. I want the fidelity from it.

There are many things in the KA that we can't do due to broken items.
Sure if you are happy with the basics then you most likely won't take heed of the indepth items that make a simulator a simulator aside from a flight model and clickable cockpit.

But the fact remains. They are still there and will we have to pay again for them to be fixed ?


On the other issue, i have no problem with the sim moving forward. I can safely say that i think we we all want it to. However, it has moved a long way away from the core ideolgy that DCS was supposed to be a core base to where each flyable adds on.

At the moment everything is a stand alone release that may or may not tie in with all the other releases, no guarantee. This is not what was advertised or planned or advised to the public.

So, fair enough, if you only have one flyable then this route is not really an issue. Just pay to upgrade (with or without bug fixes) and all is hunky dorey.

However, if you like to have all the flyables, then you have a costly and a somewhat funky way of trying to keep all this together.

AkA, black shark version 10, with dcs version 9 with lockon version 6 with f-18 version 3 with f-18 version 4...... adnausium.

--------------

Don't get me wrong, i like the progress ED are trying to make, but unfortunately for me (a long time supporter waaaaaay back in the day well before DCS) I am not going to purchase any upgrades or any further flyables, until i understand where all this is moving to. When i find a common ground that i understand ED will take this then i will decide how many flyables i will purchase to obtain value for money and cohesion with further upgrades.

As an example. (instead of purchase all the flyables which is what i would have done). I can easily hold off an purchase the latest iteration every 4 years. Ok, i will only get multiplayer capability until next upgrade.... but hey ho... thats the price of fracturing.


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3435147 - 11/16/11 01:17 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
WynnTTr Offline
Member
WynnTTr  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
Keep up with the times or get left behind. Sorry, that's real life for you. Every old software will be superseded and you can't expect a company to support an older product forever. Software companies don't work that way. Sure the older software will still work but there won't be any support for it nor will it be guaranteed to work with the latest features. So either you jump on board or get left behind.

RE: problems in BS - most have been fixed with BS2. I only had problems with the AI and that has been totally reworked. The AI is stellar in BS2, wingmen do things right, enemy units react realistically. It's much more fun and immersive.

What other 'many' problems are you talking about? I bet that what ED have done right far outweigh their bugs by a large, large margin. No software in the history of software will ever be bug free.

You won't buy anymore that's your prerogative. I'll buy whatever they release, flyables and all. You can stick by your principles and miss out while I have fun flying whatever aircraft they decide to release, provided the aircraft appeals to me ofc.

EDIT: Actually I'll buy whatever they release even though I don't like the aircraft and would rarely fly it. I'd do it to support them just like I bought all the aircraft + field mods for ROF. Even though flying WW1 crates is probably the lowest rung for me.

Last edited by WynnTTr; 11/16/11 01:22 PM.
#3435267 - 11/16/11 04:38 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
EinsteinEP Offline
Just a Noob
EinsteinEP  Offline
Just a Noob
Senior Member

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
Tucson, AZ
Without an infinite budget, infinite resources, and infinite time, no project will ever be truly "complete" to all observers, but, as the saying goes, sometimes you have to shoot the engineers and start selling cars.

That said, many of the issues folks bring up against the DCS products is valid. As I understand it, they have a bug-tracking feature where they keep track of even "minor" bugs and tweaks and re-consider them for incorporation for each patch/update. With the finite budget, resources, and time problem, the developers have to choose which bugs get fixed. One specific fix may only take an hour to integrate and test, but when you have dozens of these little items in addition to significant fixes that require days of integration, the tradeoff decision becomes easy. Since we're not privvy to those discussions and decisions, it may seem like the "easy" fixes are being deliberately overlooked and ignored, but that's not what's really happening. There's a much larger picture than what we see.


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3435298 - 11/16/11 05:06 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
bogusheadbox Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
bogusheadbox  Offline
Opinionated Aussie Bloke
Senior Member

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,896
@einstein, yes i am aware there will be a bigger picture. I am not asking for perfection, just some adressing to the bugs that are not fixed that will most likely come in another pay for patch. I am not young like some of the posters here and i do understand the concepts of business.

@WynnTT. I won't get left behind. As i said before, all i have to do is make one purchase every 4-6 years and i will still be current without spending a shed load of money in the process.

Anyway, there will be fanbois and there will be haters and there will be those in between. I hope you all enjoy.

Regards,

Bogus.


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3435520 - 11/16/11 09:48 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Taipan Offline
Sim Addict
Taipan  Offline
Sim Addict
Member

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 498
Sydney, Australia
Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
the dual hydraulics failure was only one thing. You may be happy with it, but i am not. I want the fidelity from it.

There are many things in the KA that we can't do due to broken items.
Sure if you are happy with the basics then you most likely won't take heed of the indepth items that make a simulator a simulator aside from a flight model and clickable cockpit.

But the fact remains. They are still there and will we have to pay again for them to be fixed ?


On the other issue, i have no problem with the sim moving forward. I can safely say that i think we we all want it to. However, it has moved a long way away from the core ideolgy that DCS was supposed to be a core base to where each flyable adds on.

At the moment everything is a stand alone release that may or may not tie in with all the other releases, no guarantee. This is not what was advertised or planned or advised to the public.

So, fair enough, if you only have one flyable then this route is not really an issue. Just pay to upgrade (with or without bug fixes) and all is hunky dorey.

However, if you like to have all the flyables, then you have a costly and a somewhat funky way of trying to keep all this together.

AkA, black shark version 10, with dcs version 9 with lockon version 6 with f-18 version 3 with f-18 version 4...... adnausium.

--------------

Don't get me wrong, i like the progress ED are trying to make, but unfortunately for me (a long time supporter waaaaaay back in the day well before DCS) I am not going to purchase any upgrades or any further flyables, until i understand where all this is moving to. When i find a common ground that i understand ED will take this then i will decide how many flyables i will purchase to obtain value for money and cohesion with further upgrades.

As an example. (instead of purchase all the flyables which is what i would have done). I can easily hold off an purchase the latest iteration every 4 years. Ok, i will only get multiplayer capability until next upgrade.... but hey ho... thats the price of fracturing.


Bogushead your two points are at odds with each other. Firstly you say you want very high fidelity above and beyond what any other game delivers. Then you go on to say adnauseum about how to pay for it going forward?

If you want something close to commercial/military grade you should be rejoicing they have found a way to continue the line.
It's like a subscription method but cheaper, way cheaper than iRacing or anything like that and way more detailed too.

My previous point still stands - marketing, sales, politics, packaging, version numbers are all nonsense and don't affect the sim experience. Hell they may even make it possible to improve and fix more bugs. If I have BS 10, a-10 9, FC8 it will be wonderful not "ad nauseum". You know why? Because there are 7 more titles there which means seven more flyable high fidelity experiences.

And forget the idea of having them as plugin flyables to the original DCS, that idea is gone, move on.

When you fire up the game and get in the cockpit, packaging don't mean #%&*$#.

#3435528 - 11/16/11 09:59 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
WynnTTr Offline
Member
WynnTTr  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
@einstein, yes i am aware there will be a bigger picture. I am not asking for perfection, just some adressing to the bugs that are not fixed that will most likely come in another pay for patch. I am not young like some of the posters here and i do understand the concepts of business.

@WynnTT. I won't get left behind. As i said before, all i have to do is make one purchase every 4-6 years and i will still be current without spending a shed load of money in the process.

Anyway, there will be fanbois and there will be haters and there will be those in between. I hope you all enjoy.

Regards,

Bogus.


That's 3-5 years that you won't be flying their latest sim for the saving of a few dollars. It's your money though and whatever floats your boat. All I know is I'll be happy flying whatever they bring out that day instead of waiting half a decade for the next aircraft.

#3436141 - 11/17/11 07:53 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,429
enigma6584 Offline
Senior Member
enigma6584  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,429
Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox


Anyway, there will be fanbois and there will be haters and there will be those in between. I hope you all enjoy.

Regards,

Bogus.


Oh I will. I'll get years of enjoyment doing something I could not do in real life. All for the price of dinner for two at the local diner...and that dinner only lasts a few hours.

#3436277 - 11/17/11 11:15 PM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: citizen guod]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,183
Force10 Offline
I'm just a
Force10  Offline
I'm just a
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,183
CA
Seeing the posts here I can tell that DCS's strategy is working. Pretty soon it will be standard for us to pay for patches that only include bug fixes. Were not there yet, but you can tell the future will be them citing "finite" resources and "unexpected" length of time to fix bugs and a lot of folks here will hand over their money with that glazed look in their eye's and ridicule those that oppose it.


Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
Windows 7 64 bit Home edition
Intel I5 4670K @ 4.4 ghz
16 gig 1866mhz Corsair Vengence Pro memory
EVGA GTX 970 Superclocked 4gb Video Card
Intel 510 series 120gb SSD (boot drive)
Samsung 840 1TB SSD
Onboard Realtek sound
______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



#3436362 - 11/18/11 01:26 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
WynnTTr Offline
Member
WynnTTr  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 730
Originally Posted By: Force10
Seeing the posts here I can tell that DCS's strategy is working. Pretty soon it will be standard for us to pay for patches that only include bug fixes. Were not there yet, but you can tell the future will be them citing "finite" resources and "unexpected" length of time to fix bugs and a lot of folks here will hand over their money with that glazed look in their eye's and ridicule those that oppose it.

Cool. Can you look in your crystal ball and tell me next week's lotto numbers? I need more time to fly all these sims.

#3436374 - 11/18/11 01:45 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: WynnTTr]  
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,183
Force10 Offline
I'm just a
Force10  Offline
I'm just a
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,183
CA
Originally Posted By: WynnTTr
Originally Posted By: Force10
Seeing the posts here I can tell that DCS's strategy is working. Pretty soon it will be standard for us to pay for patches that only include bug fixes. Were not there yet, but you can tell the future will be them citing "finite" resources and "unexpected" length of time to fix bugs and a lot of folks here will hand over their money with that glazed look in their eye's and ridicule those that oppose it.

Cool. Can you look in your crystal ball and tell me next week's lotto numbers? I need more time to fly all these sims.



Since you will need the money to pay for bug fix patches...here ya go: 12 8 31 22 28 19


Asus Z87 Sabertooth motherboard
Windows 7 64 bit Home edition
Intel I5 4670K @ 4.4 ghz
16 gig 1866mhz Corsair Vengence Pro memory
EVGA GTX 970 Superclocked 4gb Video Card
Intel 510 series 120gb SSD (boot drive)
Samsung 840 1TB SSD
Onboard Realtek sound
______________________________________________________

Oddball from Kelly's Heroes: "If we're late, it's cause we're dead"



#3436388 - 11/18/11 02:08 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
BeachAV8R  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
Originally Posted By: Force10
Seeing the posts here I can tell that DCS's strategy is working.


Yeah..cause Jane's and Microprose are doing really stellar these days..ED should adopt their business model and become really successful!

reading



#3436389 - 11/18/11 02:10 AM Re: Review: DCS: Black Shark 2 [Re: enigma6584]  
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
BeachAV8R Offline
Lifer
BeachAV8R  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 24,314
KCLT
Originally Posted By: enigma6584
Oh I will. I'll get years of enjoyment doing something I could not do in real life. All for the price of dinner for two at the local diner...and that dinner only lasts a few hours.


And that doesn't include a bottle of wine with dinner. Cripes..$30 for probably a $10 bottle of wine. I hate drinking on date nights..

thumbsup



Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Carnival Cruise Ship Fire....... Again
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:58 PM
Baltimore Bridge Collapse
by F4UDash4. 03/26/24 05:51 PM
The Oldest WWII Veterans
by F4UDash4. 03/24/24 09:21 PM
They got fired after this.
by Wigean. 03/20/24 08:19 PM
Grown ups joke time
by NoFlyBoy. 03/18/24 10:34 PM
Anyone Heard from Nimits?
by F4UDash4. 03/18/24 10:01 PM
RIP Gemini/Apollo astronaut Tom Stafford
by semmern. 03/18/24 02:14 PM
10 years after 3/8/2014
by NoFlyBoy. 03/17/24 10:25 AM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0