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#3424053 - 11/02/11 09:01 PM Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News  
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kramer Offline
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#3424069 - 11/02/11 09:26 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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omgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomgomg


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3424073 - 11/02/11 09:31 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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lol - I got 8 minutes left on the download, as I'm curious if it'll recognize the Steam DCS-BS version smile

#3424758 - 11/03/11 05:16 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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Sweet need to get BS up and going again!


I've got a bad feeling about this.....
#3424919 - 11/03/11 08:05 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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- Ice Offline
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Glad I passed on BS1, so no pressure at all for me to buy BS2. Looks good though; but can still say "NO!"


- Ice
#3424962 - 11/03/11 08:50 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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Eugene Offline
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This reminds me of the development path taken with Flaming Cliffs. FC2, although an improved version, was a new standalone and not expansion - and isn't really compatible with FC1. A lot of the modding community was frustrated with the incompatibility. I don't see the MP mission development as very extensive or strong now for FC2. FC2 was also billed to be compatible with the new DCS world, with Black Shark. But now Black Shark is eclipsed by a new standalone, not expansion of BS1(correct?), which is also not compatible with BS1 and FC2 as well. I think it's great that they are making improvements. It's just frustrating that the same sim gets eclipsed along with much of the modding for the original - which in turn depresses efforts for the shiny new version. And then the next sim comes out (i.e., A-10) and is not compatible with either the "2" version modding of the older sim, as well as the next in the series - BS1.

As deep as some of the modeling is in these sims, like BS1 and the A-10, the lack of a shared, common and compatible upgrade path isn't an absolute killer or disaster or anything. It just feels like a missed opportunity that for some reason I thought was within reach. Echoes of the Microprose "Electronic Battlefield" concept that sadly never came to pass, I guess.


Eugene

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#3424969 - 11/03/11 08:54 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: Eugene]  
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There's a technical and legal aspect there, not all of it necessarily directly tied to the code of the sims themselves. There are a lot of challenges to overcome while at the same time not ceasing work.

All in all though, ED is definitely trying to move forward with the DCS concept, and this isn't easy - I think if one looks at previous attempts and how they failed to materialize, they'd probably see that it's just not easy. ED is doing whatever it can, IMHO, to keep the dream alive /and/ working toward it with every iteration of the series. Expect stumbling, IMHO.

Originally Posted By: Eugene
As deep as some of the modeling is in these sims, like BS1 and the A-10, the lack of a shared, common and compatible upgrade path isn't an absolute killer or disaster or anything. It just feels like a missed opportunity that for some reason I thought was within reach. Echoes of the Microprose "Electronic Battlefield" concept that sadly never came to pass, I guess.


--
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#3425375 - 11/04/11 09:38 AM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Hang on, hang on..

Can i have some clarity please.

1) A:10 and BS are being merged
YES
2) BS is a new standalone product (AKA Version 2)
YES
3) BS version 2 is a new payable product and those with BS Version 1 have to rebuy ?
YES price 19.99 USD Requires BS 1 or 39.99 for the full BS2 version

[edit] just got the answers.

I can say that i am not 100 percent fully happy with this. In fact i am bordering on being freking pissed. I am all for supporting ED. But i don't want to pay for product x, then product y then pay again for patch z which is supposed to make x and y work together (as we were expecting this from the start.

So what happens when the next flyable is released. DO we then have to pay to patch both BS and a:10. Add another flyable, do we then have PAY to patch BS, A:10, the not yet named new release to the latest release.

I have to say, this pretty well sucks and does not make me want to buy every version of the game

jawdrop Taking the piss here a bit i think.

Last edited by bogusheadbox; 11/04/11 09:46 AM.

Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3425659 - 11/04/11 03:51 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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andyfoot Offline
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I'm happy to pay the price, I invest a lot of time in all of ED's products (since Flanker 2), literally hundreds of hours on each of their products, so to me this is extremely good value for money. I've spent a considerable amount more money upgrading my PC's/laptops/joysticks/Track IR's/Rudder pedals over the years, and I feel I've got my money's worth with everything I have bought in both entertainment value, and my own sense of satisfaction when I "master" (i.e. can fly reasonably competently) each aircraft. I've bought other games for similar prices, and played them start to finish in less than 20 hours of playing time, and never touched them again; these products leave me feeling like I've wasted my money. We are a niche market, and if we don't pull together to support it and keep it alive we run the risk of losing it altogether, which would be a travesty. I'm passionate about my hobby, I wish I had more time to devote to it, and paying $20 for this is a very small price to pay for such a quality product and the hours of fun I will get back from it.

ED have consistently provided support and upgrades and patches, listened to customer feedback and implemented a lot of customer requests. I think they are an outstanding company that not only provide the best service within their resources, but they "set the standard" and then work even harder to raise the bar and set the new standard. Just look at the difference between DCS A10C from now to the first beta we had only a year ago, and we are on the brink of yet another "fully featured" patch to make it even better.

When I originally got BS, I played it pretty much exclusively for about a year and a half (then FC2, then DCS A10C) and I more than got my money's worth. Taking BS2 for a very quick spin (just to check it runs okay on my system) had me instantly satisfied that I have not wasted my money, I know I will be putting in well over a hundred hours into this cockpit.

#3425835 - 11/04/11 06:05 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: bogusheadbox]  
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EinsteinEP Offline
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Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
I have to say, this pretty well sucks and does not make me want to buy every version of the game

Then don't.

I most likely will be.


Shoot to Kill.
Play to Have Fun.
#3425869 - 11/04/11 06:31 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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Wrecking Crew Offline
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+1 what andyfoot says -

The software costs pale in comparison to what I spend on computer hardware.

I bought all the LOMAC titles and A-10C. Install the new files and don't look back.

Kind of like the Battlefield series... Then there's iRacing which is subscription based, and that model doesn't entice me at all.


I'm a software developer... and changes / upgrades are a part of my work. It is tough when a new release of code is not compatible with prior results, but these things have to happen.

WC

PS And there are some games I've purchased that get no playtime (Civ V is one) oh well, did not get my money's worth there. But it's peanuts compared to the hardware, and I generally give away the stuff I don't use.


"Your ballroom days are over, baby"

Find my DCS World missions at Wrecking Crew Projects. All released missions are free to download, modify and publicly host -- enjoy!
#3425908 - 11/04/11 07:02 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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- Ice Offline
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I LOL at people complaining about having to fork over $20 for a quality sim, but don't think twice about that new video card or extra monitor.

I just pushed myself over the cliff here and bought BS2 for 25. After 10 minutes in the game (and I've never flown BS before), I say it's money well-spent.


- Ice
#3426242 - 11/05/11 01:30 AM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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Mizzy Offline
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I think it is about time ED had a proper business model and this is it. You get what you pay for and if you want high quality simulation products...FECKIN GET USED TO PAYING FOR IT :-)

Kind regards
Mizzy

#3426270 - 11/05/11 02:21 AM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: - Ice]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
I LOL at people complaining about having to fork over $20 for a quality sim, but don't think twice about that new video card or extra monitor.

I just pushed myself over the cliff here and bought BS2 for 25. After 10 minutes in the game (and I've never flown BS before), I say it's money well-spent.


The difference mate is that a lot of people (I'm one of them) bought Blackshark on release....and now we have to pay again for what is essentially the exact same game (or 98% the same game) in order for it to be compatible with DCS-A10 after it was proclaimed these were modular games and would work with each other. Even if we aren't particualarly bothereed with the inter-operability of the two titles, support for BS1 has now being halted, so although we may just want single/multiplayer action on BS there are several bugs which have never been fixed, never will be fixed or have been broken along the way such as the training missions. The only way we can have these working again is to essentially buy the same game again.

The worst thing that can happen is that every module you own needs patching/upgrading with each new release, and that will mean it will get more expensive as time moves on. Take On Helicopters has just got my cash.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3426406 - 11/05/11 10:24 AM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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- Ice Offline
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I understand where you guys are coming from, I really do. You expected Product A to be able to do XYZ, but it only did XY, and now ED is asking for more money for Z. I sure would be pissed if they would charge me $20 to get DCS A10 "updated" to work with DCS: Next or even to fix the bugs. However, I am also looking at the other side of the coin here. Probably took too much manpower to solve all the bugs or "bring it up to date" to make it a free patch or whatever.

In my personal view, however, the quality of these sims is so much so that I don't mind paying for them. I'm the guy who doesn't pay full-price for a game if I can help it --- I'll wait for sales and discounts to roll around, or if I wait long enough, it'll be marked down in the local game stores. However, I'm also the guy who doesn't mind paying extra for titles I know I will enjoy. I got the Starcraft 2 box set, which was double the game-only price. I got Mass Effect 1 and 2 collector's editions. I bought DCS A10 at beta, and I bought DCS BS2 on release.


- Ice
#3426464 - 11/05/11 12:48 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Also there are other reasons for the angry mob to be here.

1) it was inferenced the entire time that this patch was to be free
2) Bugs are still rife within BS, are we going to have to pay again to patch up these bugs.
3) ED gave absolutely no indication until release that to integrate with a-10 it will be payware.

(just this point alone could have resolved a hell of a lot of angry criticism)

4) no official changelog of what you actually get with BS2 over BS 1

They say that there was a lot of work that went into it.. Fine. Work is not free. But ED did not give 2 cents of care to let us - the guys that buy their product a heads up of what was happening. Not to mention loads of problems left unfixed, no changelog etc.

Thats what i am pissed about. If they don't give a #%&*$# about me the customer, then i won't give a #%&*$# about them the deveolper and i won't purchase to support i will only purchase to indulge which is less money for them from my pocket.


Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3426485 - 11/05/11 01:31 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: kramer]  
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Paradaz Offline
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On top of that ED and mods are pretty much saying we are getting all these extras with the DCS A10 engine now running BS2....but many of us already paid for that engine when we bought A10 anyway. The term 'modular' is complete rubbish, proven that we need to pay for a 3rd game to make 2 we already own work together.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#3426532 - 11/05/11 02:43 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: bogusheadbox]  
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159th_Viper Offline
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Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
Also there are other reasons for the angry mob to be here.....


Mob?

1. A large disorderly crowd or throng.
2. The mass of common people; the populace.
3. Informal
a. An organized gang of criminals; a crime syndicate.
b. often Mob Organized crime. Often used with the: a murder suspect with links to the Mob.
4. An indiscriminate or loosely associated group of persons or things: a mob of boats in the harbor.
5. Australian A flock or herd of animals.


A Vocal Minority, at best, maybe. Having cause to repeat the same mantra over and over and over again does little to increase the size of dissent - merely adds to the noise-nuisance-factor.

Then again, I may be looking in all the wrong places rolleyes


Airframe #36
159th Guards Aviation Regiment
"Airspeed, Altitude, or Brains; you always need at least two."
#3426539 - 11/05/11 02:49 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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bogusheadbox Offline
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Ok, so you are happy with no change log? No prior warning, still loads of fixes and that fact that EtherealN said that the patching cycle has to end somewhere? SO no more support for BS, will we not see the fixes we asked for for years?

I have no problem with the price, but i have been a supporter for a very long time and i would like to think that ED would be clear to us in the direction they are taking this.

Maybe you are happy with the way things are, maybe you don't care. that is fine, but i know a lot of us do (to the description of mob you so kindly posted) as the ED forums have a 100+ thread on it already.

Me, maybe its because i am an adult. I like customer service for my money. I like to be involved with a company i support. I have raved about ED longer than a lot on these boards. Being treated like a customer is all i ask.

Last edited by bogusheadbox; 11/05/11 02:50 PM.

Fighterops...

The only TRUE Stealth crowd funded game.

Devs said there was stuff there, but you just couldn't see it.
#3426578 - 11/05/11 03:28 PM Re: Black Shark 2 Released - DCS A-10C Patch News [Re: bogusheadbox]  
Joined: Dec 2006
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159th_Viper Offline
Flyin' it like I Stole it......Always!
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Originally Posted By: bogusheadbox
Ok, so you are happy with no change log? No prior warning, still loads of fixes and that fact that EtherealN said that the patching cycle has to end somewhere? SO no more support for BS, will we not see the fixes we asked for for years?

I have no problem with the price, but i have been a supporter for a very long time and i would like to think that ED would be clear to us in the direction they are taking this.

Maybe you are happy with the way things are, maybe you don't care. that is fine, but i know a lot of us do (to the description of mob you so kindly posted) as the ED forums have a 100+ thread on it already.

Me, maybe its because i am an adult. I like customer service for my money. I like to be involved with a company i support. I have raved about ED longer than a lot on these boards. Being treated like a customer is all i ask.


Nice try, but I will not be drawn into a Pro's vs Con's argument. My views on the BS2 matter have been and will remain unpublished.

I was merely stating that, and I reiterate, that there exists a vocal minority that seem to suffer from the delusion that if they repeat the same story over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, then somehow it lends further credibility/momentum to an argument already stated.

News-Flash: It does not.

It merely adds to the noise-nuisance-factor is all.


Airframe #36
159th Guards Aviation Regiment
"Airspeed, Altitude, or Brains; you always need at least two."
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