Hi Gents,

I finally had a Saturday to blow on Rise of Flight and had a play with the revised version of my beloved SE5a. It's Bloody Awful!

Take five ace SE5a's (no bombs) up against 5 ace Albatros's (any variant, even the 160hp Albatros D.II early) at 100 meters in the quick mission builder. If you try to turn with the albatros, without a pre-existing energy advantage, you'll soon find being out turned and out climbed and in a world of hurt. You can win but it's a hard fight

Now swap over, take five ace Albatros's up against 5 ace SE5a's (no bombs). You'll find you have to cut power to 50% to avoid overtaking the lumbering SE's in a turn as you sit effortlessly on their tails pumping rounds. It's an easy fight.

Against the Pfalz D.III, it's even worse.

Now I'm willing to bet that no one can show me a quote from pilots on either side saying how the Albatros and Pfalz dominated the SE5a. In reality, the SE5a wasn't even out classed by the Fokker D.VIIf;

Marshal of the Royal Air Force William Sholto Douglas, said
" Just before the deaths if Jimmy McCudden and Mick Mannock, the Germans had started introducing on the Western Front a new fighter, the Fokker DVII, a single-seater biplane fitted with a new BMW engine - which was one of the best aero engines produced by either side up to that time. Fortunately for us, one of these new Fokkers was captured intact not long after it first appeared, and we were able to try it out against our own SE5. I was one of those who flew it, and we found that our own machine was a shade faster in level flight by about two or three miles per hour, but did not have such a good rate of climb. The Fokker DVII was also slightly more manourvreable than the SE5, but we still had the advantage in being able to pick up speed more quickly in the dive."

If we do some quick calc's (all data from the outstanding Profile Publications), we see the SE5a has a better powerloading and lower wingloading than both Albatros and Pfalz

Albatros D.III Late
Powerloading .203 hp/kg (180hp/886kg)
Wingloading 43kg/m2 (886kg/20.5m2)

Albatros D.V
Powerloading .211 hp/kg (180hp/852kg)
Wingloading 40kg/m2 (852kg/21.2m2)

Pfalz D.III
Powerloading .197hp/kg (180hp/915kg)
Wingloading 41kg/m2 (915kg/22.17m2)

SE5a (Viper)
Powerloading .228hp/kg (200hp/879kg)
Wingloading 38kg/m2 (879kg/22.84m2)

The only thing the SE5a can do now in ROF is run.

(P.S. I haven't posted this on the ROF forums because from past experience, all you get is endless personal attacks that you dared to question Neoqb)

Spoon

Hi Spoon,

I believe the SE5a is currently at a disadvantage as the other aircraft are yet to be revised and they, both allied and German, are over modelled. The worst 2 are the Camel and the DR1 and I hope these are the 1st to be revisited by 777.

I am not expert, I am not even a good pilot, but the new SE5a resonates better with me in that I have always thought that the RoF planes were too WWII like in their ability.

The SE5a is modeled very, very closely to its real-world specs now. In a word, it's not awful - it's you.

Hmmmmm. I can slap around the Alby's with the new SE5A where I couldn't with the old version. The trick for me is to dive when the Alby gets on my six then reset.

Don't try to turn with them, BnZ.

I think the new Se5a is way better than the old one!

@ Teddy Bar

The new SE5a definately 'feels' a lot better and it no longer 'hunts' for a heading, which was always a gripe in a plane known for its stability. What upsets me is that it's rate of turn is even less than it was before. The change has made the unhistorical difference in turn between the SE5a and Albatros/Pfalz even worse.

@ LukeFF

Try reading my post before replying next time

@ Buddywolf and Django333

While you always play the energy advantage if you've got it, the SE5a was quite capable of close in fighting with the Albatros/Pfalz. In fact, if you read Great War combat reports, once the first dive was over, that's how battles were decided. The present ROF SE5a is defenceless once you reach energy parity and your forced to disengage. If you fly the SE5a vs Albatros, then an Albatros vs SE5a, historically you would feel the SE5a was the better machine. In ROF, I'd take the Albatros any day

Thanks

Spoon

If you're flying off line, use Criquet's AI Mod and fly Mods On. The SE (and other BnZ planes) will extend properly.

The stock BnZ AI try to turn and get killed very easily.

That's my impression exactly so far, after just a few hours playing with it in some quick missions against DVII's. Forget slightly inferior turn rate, I can't even come close. Reminds me of flying Wildcats against Zekes in IL2. Of course I'm still shaking off the rust and getting used to
RoF, but my impression was exactly as stated above.

What Tom said.

I would have tought that in this point, people actually would have already undestood also importance of wingprofile, stagger, gap/chord ratio and why sesquiplane desing had adventages in lift efficiency. Listing just wingloading and powerloading can be very misleading...

I dont even want to touch question about using only selected anecdotes as a proof...

AI vs AI is a pointless test because AI will ALWAYS turn and burn and does not know how to boom and zoom. With proper tactics (" seldom same alt, always above, never below"), the SEVa can completely dictate the way battle goes against any Albatroses, even when outnumbered by them. and yes, using anecdotes as proof doesnt cut it in RoF since 2009

See this thread and marvel at the work that was put into SEVa revision: http://riseofflight.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=351&t=22802
The revised SEVa is realistic, historically accurate and meticulously researched and modeled.

Definitely, this helps a lot.

Yes, AI SE5s have always had their asses kicked by AI Albatrosses. This is nothing new.

Please research a little more before you rant? The SE5a still outclimbs all of the Albatrosses and Pfalz D.IIIa (as it should), and it dives like the wind (as it should).

Determining whether one aircraft is better than another by doing a 100m 5vs5 fight with the QMB is like determining a car's top speed by backing out of your driveway.

I feel these crates are being compared to WW2 birds and later. We read, say, the SE5a was great at BnZ however this term doesn't mean it's only good at BnZ. The SE5a and some other aircraft could do both, thats what was special about SE5a and why they became ace makers.

Our conceptions are mainly to do with WW2 planes and later as I said and a BnZ plane was great at BnZ but not a turn fighter. With WW1 planes this isn't the case. The SE5a should out fly many others be it turn or boom and zoom. It just so happens it wasn't just good at turning but diving and climbing aswell. We are boxing them into tiny compartments I feel and it doesn't work.

The SE5a in RoF at presnt does not feel like a ace maker nor one of the best planes inWW1. I'd take and Alb DVa any day or a Pflaz DIII.

In other sims the SE5a and the Brisfit are my favourite allied planes. In RoF I barely fly them. I just bought the Brisfit aswell, it didn't live up to my expectations, the speed drop off when you try and lift the nose off the horizon means it's a terrible climber for a start. Also the rear gunner may aswell not be there. I javen't seen them hit as plane yet even when I'm flying perfectly straight.

Should SE5a fly like in other sims? If i was used to Red Baron 3D, it means that here it should fly the same? Why? Is the FM of an older sim a reference? If i compare with some pilot account, am i better than that pilot, or how do i know which was the level of his enemies? The thread of SE5a FM correction, was it read by any of the complainers here, before they started to post? Sorry for the tone, but the title of the thread is in the same mood.

In multiplayer RoF, there are a lot of SE5a aces, and those good at flying SE5a before, online, were more than satisfied with the new corrections (diving etc.). It is an ace maker, for those who want to learn how to fly the machine, not to have a machine who fly like they already want. What i see here is people who do not want to fly by BnZ, they want to TnB and still have success, and invoking a lot of strange reasons for that.

( Reading the first post, more and more i see people who don't want to complain at the original forums, exactly because there know their complains are not quite valid and they will quickly get their answer. So instead they move here, and *sometimes* it looks like the SimHQ RoF forum becomes the 'second wave forum', a place to complain, like some weeks ago. )

Or look at the post directly above yours. The part about the F2B not climbing well is a howler.

If I BnZ I loose my wings lol

Dude, you are SERIOUSLY doing something wrong!!!!

I'm currently flying mid-career in my trusty Se5. My primary opponents are the DV's, DIII's and Pfalz DIII's and the obligatory DFW.

Except for the DFW's (which I ALWAYS attack from below), the other aircraft are easy pickings if I fly my SE5 properly. I NEVER engage the fighters unless I have the height advantage and if I start the fight that way, I do very well. I fly with full real except for a few viewing icons ( I don't see as well as I used to!!!) and I average 3 to 5 FIGHTERS a mission with real damage and real ammo. I generally come home without a scratch and almost always, no ammo. In fact, it's the running out of ammo that makes me head for home. I think the Boche hate my bird-for now...

If you fly the aircraft to its potential, the above named aircraft cannot touch you.

Your success is totally based on your knowledge of the SE-5's flight characteristics and using them to your advantage. I love my SE5-for now!

The point is that SE5a was good B&Z plane but was not bad IRL also as turn and burn one. At least it shouldn't be drastically worse then contemporary German planes like Albatros or Pfalz or even DVII. Actually in ROF only tactic is use huge alt adventage over opponent and make a few passes if you miss you could only run away. You cannot fight in equal terms beacuse you dont have any chance. I think something is not right here. Or some German planes are too good ( and too easy to fly and fight) or new Se5a is not as good as it should be. Now i feel it is like Olegs crapped Fw 190 A-4 against Spitfires MkVb in IL2.