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#3402285 - 10/03/11 04:05 AM Re: Could you fly the real thing? * [Re: AndyT]  
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Isn't the question whether or not sims count as "flight training"?

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#3402446 - 10/03/11 01:22 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted By: Pooch
All right , now, listen. The Wright Brothers were glider pilots before they flew the Wright Flyer. The Wright Flyer had been tested without engines, first. And those clowns who took over those airliners werent trying to fly...they were trying to CRASH! And they did have flight training. Not much. You don't need much to fly it for fifteen minutes and then crash the damn thing into something. I thought we were talking about flying an airplane. Taking it off. Doing a circuit around the field...and then landing. If you are just talking about taking the controls while the plane is flying and making a few turns left and right, well...any idiot can do that. I've given people the controls once we were up.
And yes , those WW2 pilots soloed after a day or two of training. So did I. After eight hours. But the point you are missing is that they (and I) recieved flight training in real airplanes.
I stand by what I said. Get into an airplane with no flight training, and try to fly it, an we'll be hearing about you on the news.


Some points are on.
Training is NECESSARY.

But nowadays Fighter-Jet MUST be easy to fly 'cause much of the grief is about FIGHTING.
I can't be bothered by fine/delicate flying when I have to commit 95% of my brain in sensor discrimination, comms protocol and weapon delivery.

Flying on modern jet requires practice, that's true, not everyone could do take-off circuit and landing... BUT give an interested individual the RIGHT simulator, a procedure to follow and enough time and I bet he/she could do something quite simple as that.

Now, if we are to add in the recipe, bad weather, possible damages/emergencies, traffic and combat stress, obviously the number of simmer able to do that decrease dramatically.

Either we try out or this discussion could go violent without any substantial achievement...

Last edited by komemiute; 10/03/11 01:25 PM. Reason: Chilled out

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#3402547 - 10/03/11 03:46 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: komemiute]  
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Originally Posted By: komemiute

Either we try out or this discussion could go violent without any substantial achievement...


Indeed! I wonder how much each member would need to donate so we could buy a F-16? Then we would need to elect a victim ... er ... hero to try it out wink

#3402581 - 10/03/11 04:27 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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I took a tour of American Airlines opps in Atlanta, they said a pilot lands his or her first jetliner loaded with people. It's a paying flight. Why did I think thier was empty jumbo jets with beginner pilots shooting tougch and go's.


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#3402622 - 10/03/11 05:37 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: JCav]  
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Originally Posted By: JCav


As do I.

Flying, taking off, or landing an airplane is not some magical, otherwise-impossible task that only the "elite" (licensed pilots) are capable of.


Who said it was?

The original question was based on whether a falcon 4 keyboard jockey could fly the real F-16 - which based on the simplicity of Falcon 4 in certain areas, and lack of physical exposure - kiddy winks dream on!!



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#3402650 - 10/03/11 06:24 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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Ha Ha. This might get off topic, but who's writing mythbusters?
They really need to do this.

#3402656 - 10/03/11 06:31 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: Dragonclaw]  
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Originally Posted By: Dragon
Ha Ha. This might get off topic, but who's writing mythbusters?
They really need to do this.



Similar, but not exactly what we're talking about:

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode94


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#3402658 - 10/03/11 06:33 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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If they do, can I get a mention in the credits? biggrin

Hell I'll do it!. Only in a twin seater though wink

#3402660 - 10/03/11 06:34 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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What's the minimum ejection alt btw?......

#3402679 - 10/03/11 07:00 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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All latest Ejections seats are zero/zero: means zero speed zero feet... But of course it´s never as safe as with some altitude or speed :P


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#3402715 - 10/03/11 07:42 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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"But nowadays Fighter-Jet MUST be easy to fly 'cause much of the grief is about FIGHTING.
I can't be bothered by fine/delicate flying when I have to commit 95% of my brain in sensor discrimination, comms protocol and weapon delivery."

Yes, no question that modern jet fighters are easier to fly than many GP airplanes. Anybody here ever flown a Piper Cub? A J-3. What a handful! You have no idea how hard that airplane is to land. It's all over the place. It's like trying to control a kite on landing. Really takes some skill. Lots of fun , but lots of work ,too.
The F-16 tracks straight and true. You don't even use rudder, most of the time , in these jets. In the Cub, you're on the rudder all the time. But, it's slow.
The Viper is FAST. You'd be behind the learning curve very quickly. Things would be happening so fast, you'd be 100 miles from your airport before you knew what the hell was happening. You've got to have some real time experience before you're ready for something like that. That's why you get T-38 time before going into fighters. You can't just jump right into something like that. No one has convinced me, yet.


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#3402729 - 10/03/11 08:02 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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http://youtu.be/fjrxfrr7oE8

She manages to get into the air, but is disoriented , immediately.


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#3402795 - 10/03/11 09:16 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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Well, I think this thread isn't going anywhere until a couple of things happen:

1. While the original question seemed to be simple enough, it's clear at this point that it needs to be better defined. We are now talking about J-3's, C-172's, 9/11 hijackers and airliners, military simulators, Myth Busters, the Wright Bros, and watching a disturbing video of a (clearly under-qualified and under-trained) women nearly killing herself and others in an ultra-light...

Back to the original questions - What version of Falcon has this person flown? How much experience does he/she have with it? What gear do they use (HOTAS, joystick, rudder pedals, full pit, etc...)? How much pre-flight discussion/instruction do they get? Where is the jet and in what state is it in? (parking, taxi-way, runway numbers, etc...?). Is there other traffic in the pattern? Does this person need to use (and "speak the language") the radio? Are they doing one trip around the patter? Cross country? VFR or IFR? How much runway is available?

2. Even though some of us have real life experience flying airplanes, none of it seems to be in F-16's. I think the only way everyone here is satisfied with the answer is if it comes from someone with extensive Falcon 4.x or 5.x experience and experience flying real F-16's. I think some folks that meet these qualifications used to hang out a Frugal's World, but I don't know if there's anyone around here at SHQ.

I think we should just ingore #1 and hope that #2 happens. Otherwise this thread is doomed.

My 2 cents.


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#3403055 - 10/04/11 09:53 AM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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Good point.

So, to let's try to conclude and un-doom this interesting thread.

My last opinion/standing is:
Yes it is possible and more likely that person with over, (let's try to reason the number needed eg.), ?1000+ flight hrs.,
on !home! (PC) simulators like DCS, FS/FSX, Falcon, etc., complex ones, not h.a.w.x or something like those (arcade),...
That this person could stands much better chances in controlling airplanes (any type of), then person who came with zero of them (flight hrs).
After!, of course, additional training received based on the type of aircraft, RL experience transfer = teacher > student, agreed?
That should be obvious.

Yes!, it is possible, that same very person (experienced in home flying sims), could fly an aircraft, something smaller like
Cessna , or some U-light, after a brief course,.. that could include T/O, landing.

I can't say for others, but my best guess is,... It isn't impossible, but, veeery unlikely, that same experienced person (1000+ sim flght hrs)
could take seat in Viper for the first time, and execute, let's say, some short training flight,... T/O; NAV training; Land., nothing with fancy DF maneuvering etc.

So, this stands, because of complexity of type of an aircraft, person should receive brief/full/(+additional) training , with dual-seater or whatever means necessary/available.
Flying C-130, C-5, is out of this scope,... always requires, real life, training + experience, not alone on a home sims.

For the final words on "Could You fly a real thing?", assuming that it refers to the Viper and the person involved must have over 1000+ flight hours including, T/O & Land, experience in home sims, would be, YES but, of course, with full airforce mil. grade training.

Opinions?

Cheers

#3403405 - 10/04/11 07:29 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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The problem, as many have stated, simulators do a poor job simulating control authority near stall speed. There inertia, control coupling in r/l that is poorly or not modeled in sims. Landing on a runway would almost be impossible, me thinks. However, me thinks, I could land a F-16 in the salt flats (ex Edwards AFB) and walk away from it. Trying to land on a runway I would bleed.


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#3403607 - 10/04/11 11:18 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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Hmmm, yes and no for a home sim, I think that this is modeled even in Falcon, thrust inertia, laziness.
Mil. simulators do take this in account by default.

I saw ones, dunno, Discovery maybe, on carrier, dude was practice landing with fa18, on simulator in, can't real remember, USN Enterprise or Nimitz, in night with faulty weather and single engined, looks almost like Jfa-18 ;), You can see on finals, slow speed, going to one side, opposite rudder, like on a ridge of stall, so...
Yes, mil. sims take thrust and inertia into account. Jfa-18 also in some degree.

But, also, RL atmosphere, air pressure on different places and heights and direction, can't be fully modeled, on a CRAY for sure, but... smile

So this stands.



But, ow come on, yeah Caper, chicken? angel

Cheers

#3404573 - 10/06/11 04:01 AM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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Isn't the main purpose of sims to test just that? Situations that can occur that you couldn't or more to the point, wouldn't want to replicate in RL?


I think though, give me a bit more training on BMS, and I (in a simulator) could do most of it. In RL? I'd give it a bloody good go biggrin

#3405261 - 10/07/11 12:47 AM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted By: malibu43

2. Even though some of us have real life experience flying airplanes, none of it seems to be in F-16's. I think the only way everyone here is satisfied with the answer is if it comes from someone with extensive Falcon 4.x or 5.x experience and experience flying real F-16's. I think some folks that meet these qualifications used to hang out a Frugal's World, but I don't know if there's anyone around here at SHQ.

I think we should just ingore #1 and hope that #2 happens. Otherwise this thread is doomed.

My 2 cents.


Maybe not "extensive", but perhaps you missed Panther's post earlier in the thread, wherein she mentioned having ~5 hours in -16Ds.


That said...

I'd have to say I'd think the vast majority of people's chances would not be great...especially if their experience was primarily in Falcon or MSFS.

I'm not a licensed pilot, but I've spent quite a bit of time in small planes (Mostly 152s and a Mooney). In the 152 I've been part of navigating (for aerial photo shoots) spotting landmarks and such. I've spotted traffic called out by the tower before my pilot. I've also cringed when he made an approach steeper than I expected and I thought I was heading for a trip to the hospital (he landed fine...). Simple VFR disorientation wouldn't be likely for me. Never been in anything but an airliner in IFR, so I have no idea how I'd respond to the loss of visual cues while maintaining physical ones. I spent years playing Falcon...including ~ 4 years flying F4AF with a force-input Cougar that pretty much matched the "real thing" for feel. When I was in the Mooney (belonged to a coworker) he let me fly it a bit, including a 360 at altitude. He was a bit surprised by my SA (finished the 360 within about 5' of starting altitude) and said "I thought you hadn't flown before?!" When I got DCS A10 beta, before I ever looked at the manual, I wanted to test myself, so I created a mission with a cold jet on the ramp. Managed to get it started, take off, fly around and grease a landing. Wasn't perfect (I had no idea how to fire up the nav system yet) but it was doable.

Sensory overload is nothing new to me either. I ride motorcycles....skydived a coupla hundred times...and I've made a few passes down a bobsled track on a glorified cafeteria try (skeleton sliding)

With all that, I would say I'd have a much better shot than the average desktop jock....and while I'd love to have the opportunity to try I'd sure as hell make sure my life insurance was paid up because I know the odds are I wouldn't walk away from the "landing". It is very VERY easy to get mentally "behind" a small airplane going 80mph. I know enough to know that shooting my first live landing approach at 150 knots or so without an experienced pilot along to save my ass would have a very high chance of ending poorly, no matter how well it goes in the simulator. The rollercoaster feeling as you alter your glideslope would startle a lot of sim jockeys who weren't expecting it.

And that's all assuming empty airspace.

Plus there's the fact that Falcon's flight model just plain feels artificial in every version I've flown (which means anything that ever had the Falcon name on it that made it into the wild except the latest BMS...haven't flown it so I can't comment on it).

Try landing the SU-25T FC1 (I think it was FC1...whenever they put the advanced flight model -25T in...) in a stiff crosswind (ie something close to the max demonstrated crosswind component for the aircraft) and you get a vague impression of what you might be up against. I realize the Viper's FLCS does a lot, but it doesn't totally make the world artificial.






Last edited by Teej; 10/07/11 12:48 AM.

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#3407033 - 10/10/11 07:06 AM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted By: malibu43
Originally Posted By: MigBuster
Originally Posted By: Pooch
As a real world pilot, I am sure without a doubt that if anyone who flies sims got into a real airplane and (without training) tried to takeoff...they'd kill themselves.
A simulator is fine to help you while you're taking your training, but not as an end in itself.


Yep totally agree - expect some real pilots have had a good laugh at some of the comments on here!!


Agree. I do get a big kick out of it!

I wonder how many real life pilots will have to come on here and insist that someone with sim-only experience would kills themselves in a real plane before people will accept it...


Originally Posted By: Pooch
Get into an airplane with no flight training, and try to fly it, an we'll be hearing about you on the news.


As a former professional pilot, these threads are always fun to read. hahaha Please, continue.

Last edited by Chaz; 10/10/11 07:19 AM.

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#3408034 - 10/11/11 04:30 PM Re: Could you fly the real thing? [Re: AndyT]  
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So to summarise.... it's a yes then? biggrin

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