#3401148 - 10/01/11 12:46 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 2,536
AV8R
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@PANTHER, LOOKS LIKE BMS CAN FINALLY DO CLOSE FORMATION THAT FALCONAF COULDNT. WISH I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO GO FOR A VIPER RIDE. THE MARCHETTE260 RIDE WASNT CHEAP, BUT WORTH EVERY PENNY OF IT. HOWEVER, MY OPPONENT WAS AN EX-RHINO DRIVER BECAUSE THE CIVIE OPPONENT DIDNT SHOW UP. MY PARTER WAS AN EX-TOMCAT PILOT NOW AIRLINE CAPTAIN. GREAT GUY. WAS ONE OF THE BEST BIRTHDAYS OF MY LIFE. HERES ME FLYING OFF HIS WING BEFORE THE FIGHTS-ON CALL
AV8R
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#3401290 - 10/01/11 08:11 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 529
Nutty
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I guess I'm talking about the whole experience, though, from ramp start, to landing. Take away any mechanical failure or possibility of death, would you be able to start, taxi, take off, shoot a naughty Mig and land? I guess not, because great though BMS is ... and it is ... there's a lot that's still not modelled. For example you program your SMS in the real jet ... and there's more to input when aligning ... minor details as such but they could be enough to stop you getting airborne and employing weaponry. I would fancy my chances of getting most done to get airborne and land though ... the adrenaline rush might finish me off though! Nutty
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#3401295 - 10/01/11 08:40 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Robusti]
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 529
Lieuwe
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...
My question is why someone who is so clearly interested in aviation would limit themselves so drastically by flying with a keyboard? A cheap 20 dollar joystick is WAY better than that. IMO total keyboard flying is pointless,.
Not to get OT, but I interpreted "keyboard flyer" to mean someone who uses a simple joystick and the keyboard to fly (such as myself), not a HOTAS that eliminates much of the need for the keyboard. Maybe I'm wrong though... If "keyboard flyer" does really mean keyboard-only, the, yes, that's crazy!
Complete keyboard user here.....
Doesn't sound like a joystick user. Nope I use a Saitek Cyborg of which I just use the axis, BMS dumped my key assignments and seeing how I am used to flying Cessna's IRL that only have the PTT switch for the radio on the stick I am pretty used to having to reach everywhere and nowhere for switches and it isn't really a problem for me. As for the rest of your post, what are you basing your assumptions on? Most of my flying instructors were F-16 pilot's, a couple of my friends are, one is a F-16 Simulator instructor, I myself have about 350 hours in GA aircraft and about 5 in a F-16 ULS. I've done aerobatics introductory courses and I've done some formation flying in a piaggio that a friend owns. I sell aviation illustrations to airforce units and have spent a lot of time at squadron parties etc. having a beer and talking to sqn members, when pilots get together and have a couple of drinks they tend to end up talking about flying. I have talked about my ULS experiences with pilots and how I'd love a HUD in my cessna and the story about overreliance on the HUD and how hard it is to make the switch to heads down flying if it fails has been told to me by more then one of the guys. My own experience of having to switch from VFR to IFR and your bodies response to that in Cessna's makes me think there is a lot of truth to that. Regarding peoples believe the F-16 is somehow insanely hard to fly, that would be a rather stupid design flaw. When I fly my Cessna I just fly it and flying it has, or should have, my undivided attention. A pilot in a military aircraft can't give flying the jet his undivided attention because he has to manipulate the weapon system, communicate to a much higher level then I have to with ATC and sometimes lead a multi aircraft formation. If you make a aircraft that is such a handfull to operate he simply wont have the time to focus on his tasks as a warrior and leader.
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#3401325 - 10/01/11 11:49 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Robusti]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
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Complete keyboard user here, as said before a unit level simulator didn't pose a problem at all. Because of the click-pit you know pretty much where all the switches are and what they are supposed to do. The only buttons on the throttle quadrant and stick you'd need to fly (not fight) is speedbrakes, NWS and trim. Compared to my flying experience as a private pilot in C172's and Piper PA18's I found the F-16 simulator really easy to fly. You really don't need to make any rudder inputs, the HUD is a marvelous aid in flying and when you do get in a situation you have so much excess power it's real easy to recover. Just light the burner and off she goes. I am not instrument rated at all but with the HUD I was able to make a pretty much perfect ILS approach after some guidance from the instructor the first time. Turn the HUD off and even real F-16 pilot sometimes struggle.
First, RL f-16 pilots are well trained to fly instruments (I think you inadvertently insulted Viper drivers in an attempt to show your skill). Second. maybe "completely lost" is too strong, but someone with HOTAS training would be far more at home than a keyboard flyer for sure and would do better. My question is why someone who is so clearly interested in aviation would limit themselves so drastically by flying with a keyboard? A cheap 20 dollar joystick is WAY better than that. IMO total keyboard flying is pointless,. I have seen it written by an F-16 pilot that the Steam gauges are the primary instruments in the F-16 - something about the HUD not being certified for instrument flight.
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3401332 - 10/01/11 12:01 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,169
MigBuster
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Fly - well in an F-16D if a real pilot could:
deal with the ATC protocol plan and program the waypoints have knowledge of airspace restrictions Deal with getting the jet ready and run through the actual checks have experience of any unknown pitfalls not found in a sim
and then when we were straight and level - I should be able to fly around a bit - have done aerobatics before but am not stupid enough to think that would be of any use to the actual physical conditioning required for any major G work - I suspect it would be a shock to the system.
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3401610 - 10/01/11 09:30 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Pooch
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As a real world pilot, I am sure without a doubt that if anyone who flies sims got into a real airplane and (without training) tried to takeoff...they'd kill themselves. They would put too much or too little rudder, and end up running into the hangers alongside the runway. Or, they'd get into the air and stall it and plow into the ground. There's a reason for real life flight training. A simulator is fine to help you while you're taking your training, but not as an end in itself.
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace." Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
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#3401822 - 10/02/11 10:20 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Joined: Oct 2010
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JCav
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#3401834 - 10/02/11 11:05 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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white_fang
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I don't wanna start the fire, but those guys from 9/11, didn't have much trouble "flying" the real thing. And I guess the only "training" they received was on simulator(s). 0f course that didn't involve much t/o-s & landings. So, yes, I'm pretty sure that ppl, after years spent in flying sims, can't be much worse in real flying then ppl who that didn't do any sim. Just remember, in ww2 time, there wasn't time for full flight school, just rapid flying courses. And at the end, there's always and that tiny thing called "talent" You know. Some are cut out for the job, some aren't. But I still must say that practice makes perfect. Just my 0.02 Cheers
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#3401859 - 10/02/11 12:20 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: white_fang]
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Posts: 577
Evil Flower
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I don't wanna start the fire, but those guys from 9/11, didn't have much trouble "flying" the real thing. And I guess the only "training" they received was on simulator(s). AFAIK those guys went to proper flight schools.
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#3401947 - 10/02/11 03:47 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Pooch]
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MigBuster
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As a real world pilot, I am sure without a doubt that if anyone who flies sims got into a real airplane and (without training) tried to takeoff...they'd kill themselves. A simulator is fine to help you while you're taking your training, but not as an end in itself. Yep totally agree - expect some real pilots have had a good laugh at some of the comments on here!!
'Crashing and Burning since 1987'
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#3401977 - 10/02/11 04:53 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: MigBuster]
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,603
malibu43
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As a real world pilot, I am sure without a doubt that if anyone who flies sims got into a real airplane and (without training) tried to takeoff...they'd kill themselves. A simulator is fine to help you while you're taking your training, but not as an end in itself. Yep totally agree - expect some real pilots have had a good laugh at some of the comments on here!! Agree. I do get a big kick out of it! I wonder how many real life pilots will have to come on here and insist that someone with sim-only experience would kills themselves in a real plane before people will accept it...
Sager NP8671 17.3" Notebook, i74720HQ (3.6GHz), GTX 970M (3.0GB), 8GB DDR3 RAM, 1TB 7200RPM HD, TrackIR 4, CH HOTAS and rudder pedals
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#3401981 - 10/02/11 05:07 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Lieuwe
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Without a propellor I can't really come up with which force would make a F-16 veer so violently to the side to make it end up in a hangar? Crosswind perhaps but you'd need a lot of it to make it uncontrollable by rudder. And even when landing in a crosswind with the F-16 I believe standard practice is to not use the rudder but to stear into the wind (Opsturen is the term in Dutch, can't remember the term in english). Someone with absolutely no flight experience might struggle but without lots of torque I think the F-16 might actually be less of a handfull then a small prop plane, again I have never flown a jet IRL myself just propellor driven aircraft but not having to fight the rudder to keep it straight on the runway must be nice!
Last edited by Lieuwe; 10/02/11 05:15 PM.
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#3401992 - 10/02/11 05:37 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Pooch
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I fly props, and have no jet time so that's why prop driven airplanes came to mind , right away. But some fast propellor airplanes can get away from you REAL quickly, so I can only imagine how far you'd be behind the airplane if you ever got an F-16 into the air. Remember the video of that F-16 at Oshkosk that was making the rounds , not too long ago. Thousands of hours of jet time, and he runs off the runway and collapses his nose gear. Must have been slightly embarrassing! Let's not be silly.
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace." Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
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#3402006 - 10/02/11 06:09 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Pooch]
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Lieuwe
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I fly props, and have no jet time so that's why prop driven airplanes came to mind , right away. But some fast propellor airplanes can get away from you REAL quickly, so I can only imagine how far you'd be behind the airplane if you ever got an F-16 into the air. Remember the video of that F-16 at Oshkosk that was making the rounds , not too long ago. Thousands of hours of jet time, and he runs off the runway and collapses his nose gear. Must have been slightly embarrassing! Let's not be silly. Did the cause for that ever become public?
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#3402100 - 10/02/11 09:14 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 598
Caper
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Out West
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Wright Brothers(two)did props that were under powered, no controled authority and CG to far back. What sim did they use?
Last edited by Caper; 10/02/11 09:15 PM.
…dreams of dragon's fire and of things that will bite...sead with one eye open gripping your E-chair tight... Exit light Enter night….Now that’s Entertainment | | 0D-- Caper "Shark12 U R Shooter" | | ...________________\o/________________________/\______/\______________
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#3402102 - 10/02/11 09:22 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Evil Flower]
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,126
MedinaES
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Destination Unknown...
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I don't wanna start the fire, but those guys from 9/11, didn't have much trouble "flying" the real thing. And I guess the only "training" they received was on simulator(s). AFAIK those guys went to proper flight schools. They could never land the plane during their training. The flight instructor was a Spaniard I saw the interview he said they didn't even had the skills to land a Cessna. I read somewhere that simulators can represent an important part of the training for airline pilots. I am not saying you can takeoff and land after a few lessons with a flight simulator but I have read pilots during WWII having less than a day of flight training before having their first flight.
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#3402108 - 10/02/11 09:38 PM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: Caper]
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white_fang
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Wright Brothers(two)did props that were under powered, no controled authority and CG to far back. What sim did they use? LOL, Caper 1-1, execute pince Right on spot comrade. That's what I was trying to point out. Driving skill's are not in everyone's bones. Besides that official aeronautical mumbo jumbo's, I don't say it doesn't matter, it really does, but leave driving to the drivers. Everyone capable driving 200-300+ km/h, car on the ground, shouldn't have much trouble flying something at all. Cheers
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#3402207 - 10/03/11 12:39 AM
Re: Could you fly the real thing?
[Re: AndyT]
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Pooch
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All right , now, listen. The Wright Brothers were glider pilots before they flew the Wright Flyer. The Wright Flyer had been tested without engines, first. And those clowns who took over those airliners werent trying to fly...they were trying to CRASH! And they did have flight training. Not much. You don't need much to fly it for fifteen minutes and then crash the damn thing into something. I thought we were talking about flying an airplane. Taking it off. Doing a circuit around the field...and then landing. If you are just talking about taking the controls while the plane is flying and making a few turns left and right, well...any idiot can do that. I've given people the controls once we were up. And yes , those WW2 pilots soloed after a day or two of training. So did I. After eight hours. But the point you are missing is that they (and I) recieved flight training in real airplanes. I stand by what I said. Get into an airplane with no flight training, and try to fly it, an we'll be hearing about you on the news.
"From our orbital vantage point, we observe an earth without borders, full of peace, beauty and magnificence, and we pray that humanity as a whole can imagine a borderless world as we see it, and strive to live as one in peace." Astronaut William C. McCool RIP, January 29, 2003 - Space Shuttle Columbia
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