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#3395509 - 09/22/11 04:54 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Armenian Air Defense, today...


SA-3/4/8/10A/10B

Last edited by Hpasp; 09/22/11 04:55 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3397424 - 09/25/11 05:36 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Poland

#3399421 - 09/28/11 05:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hi, guys..

Did anyone tried to down F-117 with something different than SA-3 (Allow non-historical scenario). I've tried with SA-2, but didn't see him... "Neva" finds him about 15-18 km away, but "Volkhov" didn't....

#3399444 - 09/28/11 06:25 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hello piston79,
I did it several times with Volkhow, and even once I scored both of them (I will enclose the AAR as soon as I find it among my files). Use narrow beam and be patient... LORO offers better power but even narrower beam which makes finding him virtually impossible. Switch to LORO for tracking and you will get better results than Neva you cited (as he flies away, the track is maintained close to 30 kilometers!).

Hpasp said it's impossible with Krug in that scenario (distance too far to be detected by lower-power Krug's radar), however at Ashuluk a F-117 gets much closer and you can try to observe his echo and do what you should do smile.

#3399450 - 09/28/11 06:40 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Ok there's another problem, I tried to shoot down Gary Powers with the SA-4 (non-historical scenario) and never succeed. I tried a dozen times, different sites, different ranges - nada.

#3399489 - 09/28/11 07:13 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: MK_PL]  
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Does SA-4 covers his altitude?

#3399492 - 09/28/11 07:20 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Doesn't it? I haven't got the manual with me, but I think the max altitude is around 24,000m.

#3399517 - 09/28/11 07:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: MK_PL]  
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Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Doesn't it? I haven't got the manual with me, but I think the max altitude is around 24,000m.


I've check it, it does... I'm still on SA-2 and 3, so can't help you wink

#3399520 - 09/28/11 08:02 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: vintorez]  
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Originally Posted By: vintorez
Hello piston79,
I did it several times with Volkhow, and even once I scored both of them (I will enclose the AAR as soon as I find it among my files). Use narrow beam and be patient... LORO offers better power but even narrower beam which makes finding him virtually impossible. Switch to LORO for tracking and you will get better results than Neva you cited (as he flies away, the track is maintained close to 30 kilometers!).

Hpasp said it's impossible with Krug in that scenario (distance too far to be detected by lower-power Krug's radar), however at Ashuluk a F-117 gets much closer and you can try to observe his echo and do what you should do smile.


So, I can't get it with "Wide beam", only in "Narrow beam" and "Podsvetka", right? I expected that with "Volkhov" it would be easy, because it have more powerfull transmition... O.K. I'll try again!

#3399545 - 09/28/11 08:31 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Oh I see... The SA-4 is relatively difficult to operate, I can't wait that long smile

Originally Posted By: piston79
I'm still on SA-2 and 3, so can't help you wink

#3399933 - 09/29/11 12:05 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Stealth* planes are the REAL ghosts 7 of the last century.


Here are some publicly available and collected data for you to calculate with...

1, S-125M Neva manual page 39...
... contains Serbian account for the detection range of the F-117A with P-18 (Spoon Rest).

2, S-75M3 Volhov manual page 18 contains detection range of the MiG-21 with P-18 (Spoon Rest).

3, As the standard WarPact target MiG-21 has 2,2m Radar Cross Section, now you can calculate the REAL RCS of the F117A, using this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross_section

4, As you have the RCS detection capability of the SAM Fire Control Radars against standard WarPact target (MiG21), now you can calculate predicted maximum detection range against the F117...
(S75M3 - pg22/23, S125M - pg12, 1S32M2 - pg16, 5N62VE - pg13)

thumbsup

*I only discuss the F-117A capabilities here, that is already withdrawn from service.

Last edited by Hpasp; 09/29/11 03:51 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3401956 - 10/02/11 04:02 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
v0.922d on 1920x1080(win7ult on ati4670 drivers 8.801)

Hmmm, strange.

Can you post some screen-shots about the error display and the startup main panel?
You can send it to my mail.


How about I'll post it here instead?




#3402029 - 10/02/11 07:04 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hi!
I've just played with this formula - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_cross_section , but I'm not sure that the result is correct. We have data about the detaction range of P-18 radar for MIG-21 and F-117A .
Basically the target appears when the radar receives a certain minumum level of energy from the target. For MIG-21 with RSC 2.2 m2 it is 180 km, for Stealth - 30km.


RCS(F-117A)/4*3.1416927*(30)^2= RCS(MIG-21)/4*3.1416927*(180)^2

X/4*3.1416927*(30)^2= 2.2/4*3.1416927*(180)^2

X= 2.2/36

X= 0.06111 m2


It seams pretty big one for me. Did anyone managed to calculate it ?

#3402261 - 10/03/11 02:56 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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You need r^4, not r^2 - the RCS is then:
0.001698m^2

#3402298 - 10/03/11 04:53 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted By: Lieste
You need r^4, not r^2 - the RCS is then:
0.001698m^2


Why? I don't get it....

#3402303 - 10/03/11 05:13 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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where

Pt = power transmitted by the radar (watts) <- it is constatnt at this case
Gt = gain of the radar transmit antenna (dimensionless) <- it is constatnt at this case
R = distance from the radar to the target (meters)
S = radar cross section of the target (meters squared)
Aeff = effective area of the radar receiving antenna (meters squared) <- it is constatnt at this case
Pr = power received back from the target by the radar (watts) <- it is constatnt at this case

moving all the constants to the left...

( Pr * 4^2 * PI^2 ) / ( Pt * Gt * Aeff ) = S / ( R^4 )

Const = SMiG / RMiG^4
Const = SF117 / RF117^4

as the constants are the same with both targets, the two equations can be made equal...

SF117 / RF117^4 = SMiG / RMiG^4

...
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 10/03/11 05:20 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3402308 - 10/03/11 05:23 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Sim]  
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Strange, VB detects this display as 1536x864, and all later calculations are based on it...
screwy


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3402422 - 10/03/11 12:40 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Yup the first 'term' is the energy density arriving at the target, the received energy is then attenuated again on the return trip, each time approximated as the scattering of a point source over the surface of a portion of a sphere.

#3403911 - 10/05/11 11:08 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Originally Posted By: piston79
Originally Posted By: vintorez
Hello piston79,
I did it several times with Volkhow, and even once I scored both of them (I will enclose the AAR as soon as I find it among my files). Use narrow beam and be patient... LORO offers better power but even narrower beam which makes finding him virtually impossible. Switch to LORO for tracking and you will get better results than Neva you cited (as he flies away, the track is maintained close to 30 kilometers!).

Hpasp said it's impossible with Krug in that scenario (distance too far to be detected by lower-power Krug's radar), however at Ashuluk a F-117 gets much closer and you can try to observe his echo and do what you should do smile.


So, I can't get it with "Wide beam", only in "Narrow beam" and "Podsvetka", right? I expected that with "Volkhov" it would be easy, because it have more powerfull transmition... O.K. I'll try again!



Hi, guys... Still can't "catch" damn F-117 with "Volkhov" on Serbian scenario.... Could somebody put a screen shot from the "A" screen... Just to see how it looks like.... Is it possible to got it in wide beam???? banghead

#3403920 - 10/05/11 11:33 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: piston79]  
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Here you are. Like a barn door smile
(Narrow beam mode)






Originally Posted By: piston79
Hi, guys... Still can't "catch" damn F-117 with "Volkhov" on Serbian scenario.... Could somebody put a screen shot from the "A" screen... Just to see how it looks like.... Is it possible to got it in wide beam???? banghead

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