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#3395190 - 09/22/11 04:38 AM 2 variants of the S.E.5a ?  
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icuucme37 Offline
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Where there 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? I've seen pictures of it with a four blade screw and a 2 blade screw like what is modeled in the game. So was the 4 blade model a different variant or was it just a didn't engine/prop combination? And was there much of a difference in performance?


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#3395253 - 09/22/11 08:32 AM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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The four bladed versions were probably from a specific manufacture I think production was contracted out to several. Or squadrons replacing broken propellers with whatever they had which was not uncommon.

The variants I know of are:
SE5 (150 horse power) the first version everyone hated. There was not many of these, and 56sqn were the Guinea Pigs for testing it. Was too heavy too slow and hardly faster than the Albatros. Albert Ball refused to fly it and stuck to the N17 that was superior in his eyes at the time. 56sqn pilots then had their mechanics overhaul the plane to remove excess weight and make it into a capable fighter.
SE5a - 200 horse power, plus many improvements based upon the work of 56sqn. The SE5 that everyone knows - the most common Entente fighter after the Camel, almost the same number produced and in fact probably the same number in service at any time because the Camel pilots kept crashing and trashing those camels smile
SE5b - failed experimental
SE5e - post-war trainer aircraft

So we have the only one we need, however there may be variations between the different manufacturers.

Now the flight model has been reviewed I think it is the most accurate plane we have in ROF in terms of flight model.

#3395268 - 09/22/11 09:40 AM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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The new FM does feel very convincing, especially the new roll and climb rates. The prospect of some more of these FM re-works is quite exciting.


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#3395559 - 09/22/11 05:52 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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The four bladed Propeller is mostly used in SE5a engined with a geared 200HP Hispano Suiza V8 engine (almost the same as the SPAD XIII).
The two bladed propeller has a 200HP Viper engine, a modified non geared Hispano Suiza V8 engine - also called SE5a , came in service 1918 IIRC.

" .....S.E.5a. The S.E.5a differed from late production examples of the S.E.5 only in the type of engine installed - a geared 200 hp Hispano-Suiza 8b, often turning a large clockwise-rotation four-bladed propeller, replacing the 150 hp model. ........................................................... At first, airframe construction outstripped the very limited supply of French-built Hispano-Suiza engines and squadrons earmarked to receive the new fighter had to soldier on with Airco DH 5s and Nieuport 24s until early 1918. The troublesome geared "-8b" model of the "Hisso" V8 was prone to have serious gear reduction system problems, sometimes with the propeller (and even the entire gearbox on a very few occasions) separating from the engine and airframe in flight.

The introduction of the 200 hp (149 kW) Wolseley Viper, a high-compression, direct drive version of the Hispano-Suiza 8a made under licence by the Wolseley Motor Company, solved the S.E.5a's engine problems and was adopted as the standard powerplant."

actually there are two points you can seperate a geared Hisso SE5a from a direct driven Viper one:
Hisso , propeller is turning counterclockwise from pilotview, propshaft is at a higher position.
Viper, propeller is turning clockwise from pilotview, propshaft is at a lower position.


Last edited by Frankyboy; 09/22/11 06:10 PM.

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#3395563 - 09/22/11 05:56 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: Mogster]  
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Originally Posted By: Mogster
The prospect of some more of these FM re-works is quite exciting.


Not that I have a friggin' clue what plane should fly in what way I still have to agree that it is exciting to hear that the team is looking at previous planes to incorporate any improvements or new research that has been found. Great developers if you ask me. smile


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#3396263 - 09/23/11 04:37 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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One could argue there were 3 variants: the SE5 with 150 HP, the 200 HP SE5a with geared engine (problematic), and the Viper engined SE5a that was just right. The recent flight model change would reflect the Viper SE5a of course, so why not ALSO leave in the old flight model to reflect the geared version of the SE5a, since it really did have a glass gearbox at least... It would be historically accurate after all.

Sure would be nice to fly an SE5 during bloody April for No.56 though...

I mean, we don't need the 'greenhouse' windscreen or high seat position (they were modded away in squadron anyways...) so why not simply lower the horse power to 150 and adjust for weight as needed. The developers could use the previous/old SE5a flight model with the 'glass engine' we all love to hate to reflect the geared 150 hp Hispano-Suiza 8a V8 engine.

That engine, "while providing excellent performance, was initially under-developed and unreliable." ... "The S.E.5a differed from late production examples of the S.E.5 only in the type of engine installed - a geared 200 hp Hispano-Suiza 8b, often turning a large clockwise-rotation four-bladed propeller, replacing the 150 hp model."

Everything else remained the same essentially; seems about right... I mean, why not?

Last edited by Bandy; 09/23/11 04:46 PM.

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#3396470 - 09/23/11 09:28 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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we have already a geared Hisso engine in game, the SPAD XIII...... and this planes has no proplems with overrev in a dive wink


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#3396520 - 09/23/11 10:32 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: Bandy]  
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Originally Posted By: Bandy
One could argue there were 3 variants: the SE5 with 150 HP, the 200 HP SE5a with geared engine (problematic), and the Viper engined SE5a that was just right. The recent flight model change would reflect the Viper SE5a of course, so why not ALSO leave in the old flight model to reflect the geared version of the SE5a, since it really did have a glass gearbox at least... It would be historically accurate after all.


The old one was not an HS powered SE5a. The engine troubles of the latter had nothing to do with the problems we experienced in RoF, as RoF does not simulate maintenance and reliability problems.

Also, the old one climbed too fast for any variant of the SE5.

Last edited by RoFfan; 09/23/11 10:33 PM.
#3396546 - 09/23/11 11:15 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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Bandy Offline
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Come on, NONE of the ROF aircraft simulate maintenance and reliability problems. I was refering to the previous 'glass engine' SE5a flight model that would do well at simulating the geared engine issues of the first two SE5 variants, since it was prone to burn out with unrestrained dives. Seems an adequate fit for the geared SE5a and SE5 150 HP...

Maybe you don't want to fly them in MP, but they WOULD do well at representing the historic situation of the evolving SE5 and SE5a.

I haven't seen a viable arguement against my proposal thus far, only rhetoric...



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#3396837 - 09/24/11 02:06 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: Bandy]  
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Originally Posted By: Bandy
Come on, NONE of the ROF aircraft simulate maintenance and reliability problems. I was refering to the previous 'glass engine' SE5a flight model that would do well at simulating the geared engine issues of the first two SE5 variants, since it was prone to burn out with unrestrained dives. Seems an adequate fit for the geared SE5a and SE5 150 HP...

Maybe you don't want to fly them in MP, but they WOULD do well at representing the historic situation of the evolving SE5 and SE5a.

I haven't seen a viable arguement against my proposal thus far, only rhetoric...


Please explain the rhetorical nature of my statement that the old SE5a climbed too well.

P.S. Those who prefer argument and who eschew rhetoric don't write any words in caps.

Last edited by RoFfan; 09/24/11 02:07 PM.
#3396898 - 09/24/11 05:04 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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OK, you've got me on the use of caps to try to make a point biggrin

I still think it would be worthwhile to have the earlier two SE5 'variants' warts and all in the RoF campaign/career timeline, and it could easily be accomplished with relatively little effort.


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#3397384 - 09/25/11 04:04 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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Bandy, if you want the SE5 they can just use the engine thats in the SpaXIII. Giving it that glass engine to repesent the 150hp enigne isn't right. The SE5 never had a glass engine in any of it's variants.

#3397600 - 09/25/11 11:57 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: Wodin]  
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You mean the Spad 7? The Spad 13 has a 220hp Hispano. The engine from the Spad 7 isn't appropriate either (180 hp HS 8Ab); the original SE5a had a HS 8b, with 200hp.

#3397976 - 09/26/11 06:19 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: Wodin]  
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Originally Posted By: Wodin
...Giving it that glass engine to repesent the 150hp enigne isn't right. The SE5 never had a glass engine in any of it's variants.

If I said that, and perhaps it looks that way, I didn't mean that exactly in my post and stand corrected.

From a quick check of the literature the 150 HP Hispano-Suiza 8A of the SPAD 7 seems to be a good match for the SE5, both used a 150 HP HS-8 engine, though perhaps not the exact variant since it was built under license in UK and the compression ratio may be off; but does RoF even model compression ratio? Should be easy to adjust if so.

@ ROFfan, there are two SPAD 7's in RoF, the 150 and 180 HP: LINK to RoF store

Quote:
[The SE5] was built around the new 150 hp (112 kW) Hispano-Suiza 8a V8 engine that, while providing excellent performance, was initially under-developed and unreliable.

The Osprey series echos that there were "problems" with the 150 HP HS-8A, but does not detail what they were.

Quote:
The S.E.5a differed from late production examples of the S.E.5 only in the type of engine installed - a geared 200 hp Hispano-Suiza 8b, often turning a large clockwise-rotation four-bladed propeller, replacing the 150 hp model. ... The troublesome geared "-8b" model of the "Hisso" V8 was prone to have serious gear reduction system problems, sometimes with the propeller (and even the entire gearbox on a very few occasions) separating from the engine and airframe in flight.


I'm not saying that the old flight model SE5a engine is a reality match for the problems of the geared -8b engine, but having an over-revved engine die on you (i.e. "glass" engine) might effectively (at least for me) model these known gear box issues without having to actually include in the damage model the propeller or gear box falling off in game. I'm just guessing, and I'm sure this was hashed out on the forums long ago, but maybe that's why the RoF SE5a engine was modeled the way it was in the first place?

I still think we could easily have these other SE5 'variants' in game to complete the timeline for the career mode.
Open to harsh criticism, and to changing my mind with good reason biggrin

EDIT: OK, just read a post by An.Petrovich over at RoF, and in fact the old SE5a flight model had quite a bit more changed. Still, having more variants that only require tweaking (that can be relatively easily accomplished) is better than not having them.

Last edited by Bandy; 09/26/11 06:55 PM.

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#3399217 - 09/28/11 12:42 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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My understanding is that there was not a significant performance difference between the Viper and Hisso powered variants. Obviously a huge difference between the 150 HP SE5 and the SE5a.

#3399513 - 09/28/11 07:51 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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Ah, you meant the SE5 with 150hp, not just shorthand for the SESa. Not many were made and it had a short service life. Along with the fact that it would need its own 3d model, I don't see a good reason for its conclusion before many other types of scouts and two-seaters.

Here's a chart that shows some of the differences between the 200hp HS and 200hp Wolsley SE5as:



In most cases the Wolsley-engined SE5as seem to have been faster at altitude, and climbed better. The far left column doesn't seem to fit the general trend. If the time to 10,000ft really was close to 3 minutes better, then I do see justification for two variants. That's a huge difference, and our 1918 SE5a is always included into 1917 careers and 1917 multiplayer maps.

Last edited by RoFfan; 09/28/11 07:56 PM.
#3399923 - 09/29/11 11:30 AM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: RoFfan]  
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Thanks for posting the chart. It does indeed provide evidence that there is a sig. difference if you are comparing the Viper engine to the earlier Wolsley Hispano-Suiza built under U.K. license.

Originally Posted By: RoFfan
In most cases the Wolsley [Viper]-engined SE5as seem to have been faster at altitude, and climbed better. The far left column doesn't seem to fit the general trend.
The A4563 aircraft (far left column) was the third prototype built with a French 200 HP Hispano-Suiza engine and saw service till Feb 1918. A well documented fact is the French simply made better engines back then, including most rotaries which even the engineering-minded Germans were not able to copy exactly to achieve the same performance, so they used captured French engines frequently. I believe that is the reason A4563 performs better than early Wolsley engined SE5a's.

Originally Posted By: RoFfan
Not many [SE5's] were made and it had a short service life. Along with the fact that it would need its own 3d model, I don't see a good reason for its conclusion before many other types of scouts and two-seaters.

I agree not many SE5's were built, but it started service in April 1917 as we all know with 56 squadron, and that is reason enough for me. It was in use till, and even after, 200 HP SE5a's arrived in June/July 1917. So SE5 had a longer service life than some of the RoF aircraft already available or planned: Fokker DVIII (effectively October 1918) and Sopwith Snipe (Sept 1918).

I disagree that it needs another 3D model, though I understand why this is mentioned; because of the headrest. The universally reviled 'greenhouse' windscreen was removed prior to combat; you can barely see it in the image below. Yes the head rest was not present on SE5, nor was it on early SE5a's, and even once it was introduced later on many pilots removed the headrest entirely anyways. Some squadrons even removed the dihedral to the upper wing -- so IMHO we shouldn't get too picky with WWI 3D models though I know some are rivet counters and will disagree. There simply is variation within what we perceive as a standard SE5a, so what the hell!

I still say a 150 HP SE5 can be made with a minor flight model edit by transferring the code for the SPAD VII engine. I do not know the guts of RoF like I do for other flight sims, but Jason said that the aircraft files do not have ini's that can be edited simply by a joe-6-pack like me biggrin I'll poke around some, but if anyone has pointers for doing something like this please let us know.



Here's something interesting, the standard start-up procedure for the SE5a, found at Memorial Flight website.

* Put the airplane in a level attitude using a trestle.
* Fill up the fuel tank.
* Check the oil level.
* Check the coolant level and suck 2 lit. in the expansion tank (use the overflow pipe in the trailing edge, right side of the cabane, and pour the liquid in the radiator)
* Get a stepladder and climb in the cockpit.
* Check mags off and starting mag off.
* Main tank valve off.
* Air selector on hand pump.
* Air release valve on the hand pump off.
* Fuel selector on main to emergency.
* Pressurize with the hand pump. (2.5 on the gauge)
* Open the main tank valve. the fuel will flow into the emerg. tank. Maintain air pressure and don't fall asleep, it's gonna take few min.( 18 lit. )
* You know the emerg. is full when you see fuel comming off the overflow pipe (Trailing edge left side).
* Fuel selector off.
* Main tank off.
* Release air pressure and fill up main tank.
* Pressurize the main tank again.
* Fuel selector on main to carburator.
* Air selector on engine pump.
* Radiator shutters open.
* Two guys on the wheels to do the injections while a third one turns the prop.
* Two guys holdind the tail and a third with fire extinguisher.
* Mixture rich.
* Throttle closed.
* Main tank on.
* Stick fully back (with your knees).
* When ready: starting mag switch on running mags on 2
* The mecanic bounces the prop,you turn the start mag and catch the engine with the throttle.
* Check oil and air pressure.
* Run the engine four min at 800 rpm.
* Turn the fuel off to stop the engine.(30 sec at 600 rpm).
* Mags off.
* Check for air in the coolant circuit (air pockets could dammage the water pipes or the radiator).
* Start the engine again ( you don't need to prime, just open the fuel and turn the prop about 12 blades ) and so on until no air bubbles in the circuit.

When this is done, put the bird on its tail, start the engine; check all the pressures, water temp(around 60 deg.)mags at 1000 rpm, line up into the wind and take off.





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#3400034 - 09/29/11 02:34 PM Re: 2 variants of the S.E.5a ? [Re: icuucme37]  
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Ah, yes, the French engines! Their superior quality has come up many times in the reading I've done. The Le Rhone was much better than its Oberusal copy. The French Clerget was better than the Ruston Proctor. And now the French HS is better than the license built Wolsely. Thanks for explaining the difference in the chart.

Let's not start comparing things to the mistake that was the D.VIII, however. stirthepot


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