#3383122 - 09/05/11 09:59 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: InFireBaptize]
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,453
Flyboy
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,453
England, UK
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ricnunes - I'll let you off with the 2nd vs 3rd generation FLIR, but unless I see a visual comparison - I'm not 100% convinced. The differences might be miniscule and unworthy of mention. The DTV on the Longbow can now be viewed full color via MFD or MTADS. Only on the older Block I? was it 'monochromatic' and only when viewed via the cockpit MFDs, heads-down through the CP/G's ORT it appeared color. I guess you think those videos on YouTube of black-and-white DTV footage is as the crew sees it! Just because the pilot and CP/G in the Cobra have 100% duality does not make the 'cockpit layout' more advanced. Again, as I said earlier, it's just a different design by different manufacturers for a different role. I can see no advantage in reality for the pilot being able to fully gun or the gunner to be able to fully pilot, other than what exists in 'traditional' tandem seat attack helicopters. Going by your theory, the KA-50 should be more advanced than both, as that only requires one crew member to do it all - but that is most certainly not the case. But of course the AH-1Z is more advanced than the 'Apache'.
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#3383178 - 09/05/11 10:58 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: InFireBaptize]
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 217
Raptor9
Rotorhead / GFC
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Rotorhead / GFC
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 217
Central US
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The DTV is in fact a monochromatic system, regardless of where the video output is viewed, it always has been. I suspect where the confusion lies is seeing videos of DVO through the ORT, which was basically a telescope. However, DVO is no longer installed in the Apache fleet. There are plans in the pipeline to upgrade the day side of the TADS (DTV) with an improved color TV system, much like the Army's various UAV's have. But again, that's driven by funding priorities. I'm sure it will come out the door further down the line, but the main priority for the Apache fleet is fielding the Block 3's. Of course, the current budget cuts in the government could affect ALL of this. PS: Ever since the Army came out with the Apache there's always been a war between the Apache and Cobra fans...And I doubt the war will end anytime soon, lol
Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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#3383183 - 09/05/11 11:11 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: Raptor9]
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,453
Flyboy
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,453
England, UK
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The DTV is in fact a monochromatic system, regardless of where the video output is viewed, it always has been. I suspect where the confusion lies is seeing videos of DVO through the ORT, which was basically a telescope. However, DVO is no longer installed in the Apache fleet. Yeah that would be it. That, and sims forever doing it wrongly. So you can see in daylight, but it's all still in shades of green, right? Also the DVO can't be viewed via the MFDs, am I right or am I right? PS: Ever since the Army came out with the Apache there's always been a war between the Apache and Cobra fans...And I doubt the war will end anytime soon, lol Well, I never knew that... perhaps until this topic ended up the way it has! As a general rule, I have kinda forgotten most of the intricacies of what does this and what looks like that, with the Longbow. To be honest, I'm really kind of over all the who's right and who's wrong - as in the end who really cares? I'm never going to be a Longbow pilot and there's more to life anyhow. I'm a Comanche man nowadays, and with that there is no argument. Unless you talk to ricnunes, that is.
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#3383243 - 09/06/11 12:23 AM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: InFireBaptize]
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 217
Raptor9
Rotorhead / GFC
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Rotorhead / GFC
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 217
Central US
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It all depends, the basic video signal from the DTV or the FLIR is black and white, which is what it's recorded in. However, you can view the MPD's in a green/black filter if desired. The TEDAC automatically switches from black/white when in DAY mode, to green/black when in NIGHT mode. Then you throw in the IHADSS, which can only display things in the green/black spectrum. It can get confusing. As for the Comanche, it's a crying shame that sleek airframe isn't in the skies right now...blame bureaucracy and mis-management, which seems fairly prevalent in military acquisition programs nowadays. Everytime you hear of a weapon program's cost "sky-rocketing", it's usually due to bureaucracy, which is why new military hardware takes so much longer to field today compared to previous eras, if it gets fielded at all. Whenever Flex and AD release this game, we'll all be Longbow pilots, growing beards and ordering pizza delivery while we sit on our arses playing CH...Well, Flex will be eating toaster pizza, close enough.
Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
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#3384013 - 09/06/11 08:36 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: Flyboy]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
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ricnunes - I'll let you off with the 2nd vs 3rd generation FLIR, but unless I see a visual comparison - I'm not 100% convinced. The differences might be miniscule and unworthy of mention.
Look, a 3rd generation FLIR compared with a 2nd one provide better target detection range and MUCH better image quality which provides a much better target recognition specially a long ranges. In page 29 of the AH-1Z pocket guide there's a graphical comparative between 1st, 2nd and 3rd gen FLIR sensor in terms of capability. This may partially be publicity I grant that, but that comparison between each generation of FLIR makes sense and looks realistic to me. What puzzles me with this discussion that I'm having with you is that it's seems clear that you haven't got yourself the "trouble" of reading the pocket guide that I posted previously here in this thread (at least in detail) which gets even more odd since it was you what requested that kind of info in the first place Anyway, if you look at page 31 of the pocket guide you see a very impressive capability of the TSS FLIR where you can even read the sign at a building located at something like 13 to 15Km from the helicopter (and note that the pictures in that pocket guide have very low resolution/quality), a thing which I doubt the Apache FLIR is capable of (at least with that quality and zoom level). Another thing, in page 28 it says that the AH-1Z TSS has an advanced multi-target auto tracker which is capable of tracking up to 3 active targets plus 10 more inertial targets a capability which if I'm not mistaken only the Comanche had (if I'm not mistaken the Apache MTADS can only autotrack 1 target). So in this, the AH-1Z wins "hands down". Again, please READ that doc it included very interesting info even for "Apache fans" like youlself. At least IMO it's interesting for ANY attack helicopter fan. The DTV on the Longbow can now be viewed full color via MFD or MTADS. Only on the older Block I? was it 'monochromatic' and only when viewed via the cockpit MFDs, heads-down through the CP/G's ORT it appeared color. I guess you think those videos on YouTube of black-and-white DTV footage is as the crew sees it!
Like Raptor already said the Apache MTADS DTV is monochromatic and not colored as you claimed and besides while the AH-1Z TSS TV is colored it's also a low light TV (LLTV) which enables high quality images with low light conditions. The Apache MTADS also has a mode which couples the DTV with FLIR (called the VNsight) but it's that a mixture of termal with TV images which for obvious reasons doesn't have the same image quality as a colored TV. Again in this, the AH-1Z "wins". Just because the pilot and CP/G in the Cobra have 100% duality does not make the 'cockpit layout' more advanced. Again, as I said earlier, it's just a different design by different manufacturers for a different role. I can see no advantage in reality for the pilot being able to fully gun or the gunner to be able to fully pilot, other than what exists in 'traditional' tandem seat attack helicopters. Going by your theory, the KA-50 should be more advanced than both, as that only requires one crew member to do it all - but that is most certainly not the case. But of course the AH-1Z is more advanced than the 'Apache'. Please don't "patronize me" (in a sarcastic way). It's obvious that the KA-50 cockpit doesn't came near in terms of technology because at first it doesn't have any MPDs, it doesn't provide flight and target info to the helmet sight (the KA-50 helmet sight is just that, a simple sight) not to mention that it's doesn't even "sport" termal imaging (FLIR), and long etc... Besides I don't see having one crewmember doing all the stuff as being more advanced, I only see this as pilot overload in terms or work and just to prove this it seems that the Russian are droping the KA-50 in favour of the 2 men crewed KA-52 and Mi-28! But you should already now this, or maybe not... Unless you talk to ricnunes, that is.
At least I can admit when I'm wrong about something.
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#3384031 - 09/06/11 08:46 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: AD]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
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The idea that the AH-1Z is more advanced than the AH-64D goes against an unwritten principal of the US military; 'Army gets new stuff and marines make do'. At least, that's what Hollywood movies taught me and they're usually correct.
Cheers Well if you talk about stuff from the same era that was generally or usually the truth. The thing is that the Apache Longbow it's 90's tecnology with some 2000's era upgrades which by it's turn is based on the Apache which is 80's tecnology. The AH-1Z by the contrary it's 100% 2000's technology and that makes all the diference! Besides we aren't in the Vietnam era anymore where that diference of Army=new stuff, Marines=old stuff was more evident.
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#3384116 - 09/06/11 09:45 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: InFireBaptize]
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
EinsteinEP
Just a Noob
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Just a Noob
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,674
Tucson, AZ
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Whew! AH1-Z Cobra vs. Apache vs. Ka-50 vs. Commanche! That's a B movie I would love to see!
Shoot to Kill. Play to Have Fun.
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#3384984 - 09/07/11 09:39 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: InFireBaptize]
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,268
Flexman
Member
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Member
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 1,268
Leeds, England
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I tried to resolve the debate using my Super Top Trumps "Todays Helicopters" deck but it doesn't include the Apache (despite having the sodding thing on the cover ) I guess Waddingtons doesn't think much of the old Duke.
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#3386548 - 09/09/11 06:23 PM
Re: AH-64D vs KA-50
[Re: Flexman]
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
ricnunes
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,840
Portugal
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I tried to resolve the debate using my Super Top Trumps "Todays Helicopters" deck but it doesn't include the Apache (despite having the sodding thing on the cover ) I guess Waddingtons doesn't think much of the old Duke. I could be wrong but that "thing" in that cover seems to me to be an Apache prototype, the YAH-64.
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