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#3365162 - 08/12/11 07:27 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Amidkor]  
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Kairo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Amidkor
Russian Air Defense Forces Museum - http://www.mvpvo.ru/
"Eng" button doesn't work nope

GOOGLE TRANSLATE thumbsup
any rusia site about neva?? (deep info or ynk's pics?)


Sgt/C. Kairo
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3365166 - 08/12/11 07:45 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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That museum may be good idea to get additional pictures of control panels - if they have any beside these depicted at the website. S-300? Kub? Maybe some less fatigued Dvina? Not thinking about travelling to deep Russia, but maybe they would cooperate?

#3365171 - 08/12/11 08:17 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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About the Dvina...

As the coder, Im the lucky one to try the new systems in the SIM first. wink

First impressions about the Dvina...
(don't get it wrong, still huge work, and several months are left before release)
... this system will be the favorite to all new users.

Much-much easier...
(All FCO's, who were lucky (old) enough to be able to use both the Dvina and the Volhov, said that the Dvina was a much cleaner/easier system to use.)
... to use. Only two range mode (called 120/60, in reality its only 55km or 110km), no narrow beam - LORO - H<5 options, you just use the wide beam.
(it could be a Weasel magnet in Vietnam)

Some switches are in crazy places. (ok, we are trained in a wrong way, Volhov first thumbsup )
The fire and missile recall buttons are exchanged! (PUSK is the lower one) nope

I give one virtual point to those, who find the ANT/EKV switch, and also the 120/60 selector is at a pretty unusual place.

NO SDC, NO I87V, lower range of the missiles.
Phewww...

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/12/11 08:21 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3365172 - 08/12/11 08:19 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
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Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be I can said: High Professor of Airdefence Systems and Purposes

how agree for Professor ??


You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on finding out it.
I'm perfectly happy to be called Hpasp.
thumbsup

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/12/11 08:28 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3365174 - 08/12/11 08:25 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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MK_PL Offline
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If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Originally Posted By: Hpasp

You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on it.

#3365179 - 08/12/11 08:46 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Am I right? There's a circular/sector search switch?

#3365185 - 08/12/11 09:00 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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I may be wrong but I think that
the ANT/EKV switch is on screen Q, in the center, under the red RPK pilot lamp.
And the 120/60 switch is on screen Z, under the middle PUSK button.

Last edited by MK_PL; 08/12/11 09:08 AM.
#3365213 - 08/12/11 10:44 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: MK_PL]  
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Nope. ANT/EKV is in the Z screen, white switch just below azimuth indicator. The switch you mentioned is probably a part of "electronic launch" installation (just like in Volkhov).

120/60 - you're right.

Last edited by vintorez; 08/12/11 10:46 AM.
#3365219 - 08/12/11 11:01 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
NO SDC, NO I87V, lower range of the missiles.

It's looking good! The fire/self-destruct buttons being reversed will take some getting used to. The only thing that worries me about the Dvina is not having SDC or I87V..

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Hmm...

Hpasp / 0
...
...
...
Error 506: Cannot divide by 0.
Exiting...

#3365236 - 08/12/11 11:45 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Told ya, this is pointless smile

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.

Hmm...

Hpasp / 0
...
...
...
Error 506: Cannot divide by 0.
Exiting... [/quote]

#3365501 - 08/12/11 05:37 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: MK_PL]  
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Kairo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Originally Posted By: Kairo
may be I can said: High Professor of Airdefence Systems and Purposes

how agree for Professor ??


You will never find the meaning of this acronym, so there is really no point to spend time on finding out it.
I'm perfectly happy to be called Hpasp.
thumbsup

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
Told ya, this is pointless smile

Originally Posted By: MK_PL
If it's in Hungarian, we could as well try to divide it by zero.


the first time I have read Hpasp my mind said :"hum ..... , this guy has certainly two computers,
the master is an Hewlett-Packard computer, and the second is may be a Laptop one like Acer Aspire !!

Then Hp/asp take place


Sgt/C. Kairo
#3365531 - 08/12/11 06:13 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: vintorez]  
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Originally Posted By: vintorez
That museum may be good idea to get additional pictures of control panels - if they have any beside these depicted at the website. S-300? Kub? Maybe some less fatigued Dvina? Not thinking about travelling to deep Russia, but maybe they would cooperate?

usually museum website don't put in there site HD pics of all exposed stuff, but only one between 20,
but I have a lot of HD Pics collect from many site, (walk around, inside ..) and it will be an album photo
add in the "Additive book", just be patient ... reading


Sgt/C. Kairo
#3365532 - 08/12/11 06:18 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Kairo Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
About the Dvina...

As the coder, Im the lucky one to try the new systems in the SIM first.

It's not justness pitchafit (just for lol)


Sgt/C. Kairo
#3365631 - 08/12/11 08:29 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Question: Why those guys are listed as "enemies" on the "Operation Grand Slam" scenario?
Quote:
25:19, V-755 20DSU Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 24km
Target azimuth: 182
Target elevation: 24
Target altitude: 10,3km
SNR mode: Narrow Beam - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


25:40, Missile exploded on Channel-2
MiG-19 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 19m)

26:33, V-755 20DSU Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 29km
Target azimuth: 143
Target elevation: 20
Target altitude: 10,6km
SNR mode: LORO - 75km
Missile guidance method: T/T (Three Point)


27:00, Missile exploded on Channel-1
MiG-19 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 11m)

Total, SNR On Air Time: 3min 35sec

#3365643 - 08/12/11 08:38 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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As far as I remember, one of the Soviet fighters used outdated IFF codes.
"The MiGs' IFF transponders were not yet switched to the new May codes because of the May 1st holiday".
According to another source, the falling U-2 was interpreted as a chaff cloud on the radar screen and another missile was fired, this time at the Soviet aircraft.

Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Question: Why those guys are listed as "enemies" on the "Operation Grand Slam" scenario?


Last edited by MK_PL; 08/12/11 08:40 PM.
#3366562 - 08/14/11 05:06 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
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Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
The only thing that worries me about the Dvina is not having SDC or I87V..


I really miss the LORO mode.
Illuminating the B52's with a pencil beam is quite safe (almost no chance, that the Weasels detect it), and at some ranges used to burn through the jamming.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3367253 - 08/15/11 06:47 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Kairo Offline
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Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?


Sgt/C. Kairo
#3367321 - 08/15/11 12:01 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
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Maybe you'll find some info here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021203112458/http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/lbdays.htm

Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?


#3367341 - 08/15/11 12:32 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
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Originally Posted By: Kairo
Hi to all!

my question for this day is:

in operation "Linebacker II, how many SAM batteries was destroyed? S-75 and S-125?
and how many aircraft for US was destroyed?



Linebacker-II (1972 December 18-29) contained 25 raid, altogether ~1500 planes.

USAF Aircraft Losses Dec. 18-29, 1972
Date Type Call Sign Target (Mission) Cause
Dec. 18 F-111A Snug 40 Hanoi Radio unk.
Dec. 18 B-52G Charcoal 01 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52G Peach 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 18 B-52D Rose 01 Hanoi Radio SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Quilt 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Brass 02 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Orange 03 Yen Vien complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52D Straw 02 Gia Lam rail yard SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Olive 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 20 B-52G Tan 03 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Scarlet 03 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 21 B-52D Blue 01 Bac Mai airfield SA-2
Dec. 22 F-111A Jackle 33 Kinh No complex unk.
Dec. 23 EB-66C Hunt 02 (non combat) engine out
Dec. 26 B-52D Ebony 02 Giap Nhi rail yard SA-2
Dec. 26 B-52D Ash 01 Kinh No complex SA-2
Dec. 27 F-4E DeSoto 03 (strike escort) MiG-21
Dec. 27 F-4E Vega 02 (MiGCAP) MiG-21
Dec. 27 HH-53 Jolly Green (rescue) small arms
Dec. 27 B-52D Ash 02 SAM site SA-2
Dec. 27 B-52D Cobalt 02 Truan Quan rail yard SA-2
Source: Pacific Air Forces

-------------------------------------------------------------------


Fifteen B52s went down outside of North Vietnam. Eight were due to combat. Seven were operational losses, which occurred while B52s were enroute to combat areas in Vietnam. (Information listed below).



Olive 2 B52D 11-22-72 U-Tapao SA2 damage at Vinh. Crashed near NKP. Lost 4 engines on one side. 6 crewmen bailed out/recovered. No. 55-0110.
P- N.J. Ostozny; C/P- Tony Foley; RN- Bud Rech; N- Bob Estes; EWO- Larry Stephens; G- Ronald W. Sellers. (Combat loss, 1).

Peach 2 B52G 12-18-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 58-0246. (Combat loss, 2).

Brass 2 B52G 12-20-72 Andersen Crew bailed out/rescued over Thailand.
No. 57-6481. (Combat loss, 3).

Straw 2 B52D 12-21-72 Andersen Crew bailed out over Laos. R/N Maj Frank Gould not recovered. Status XX. Other crewmembers recovered.
No. 56-0669. (Combat loss, 4).

Ash 1 B52D 12-26-72 U-Tapao Crashed at U-Tapao. Attempted go-around with 4 engines out on same side. 4 KIA. CP, 1st Lt Bob Hymel & Gunner, TSgt Spencer Grippen were rescued. No. 56-0584. The A/C made a determination that they should bailout before the crash, but since the gunner was wounded and they felt he might not be able to physically execute the bailout, they decided as a crew to try and bring the plane in. Ironically, the only survivors of the crash were the C/P and the wounded gunner. In addition, the C/P would not have survived had he not been rescued by a crewmember from another BUFF who watched the crash, and rushed into the wreck to pull the
C/P out before the plane burned up. Lord, that we could have more men like these. September 11, 2001, Lt Col Hymel, Retired, was sitting at his desk as a Defense
Intelligence Agency analyst in the Pentagon. He was one of the thousands of Americans killed that day. (Combat loss, 5).

Ash 2 B52D 12-27-72 U-Tapao No. 56-0599. Bailed out over Laos. Crew was from 28th BW, Ellsworth AFB, SD. P- Capt John Mize; CP-Terrence Gruters; RN- Capt Bill North; NAV- Bill Robinson; EWO- Capt Dennis Andersen; G- TSgt Peter Whalen. Target was SAM site VN-243, near Hanoi. After bomb release, hit by SAM. Lost all 4 engines on left wing. All crew members were picked up by rescue helicopters. (Combat loss, 6).

Ruby 02 B52D 1-4-73, U-Tapao, No. 55-0056. SA2 hit over Vinh. Went feet
wet, crew bailed out, all rescued by US Navy. (Combat loss, 7).

(Unknown) B-52D July 8, 1967 no. 56-0601 was hit over Vinh and suffered a complete hydraulic failure. The pilot elected to go into Danang rather than bail the crew out. After touchdown, the A/C was unable to stop or negotiate a go-around. They ran off the end of the runway into a mine field. All forward crewmembers perished. The Gunner, Albert Whatley survived with the help of a Marine fire truck crew. Crew was from Columbus AFB,GA. (Combat loss, Cool. Whatley cannot remember the call sign.

(Unknown) B52D 5-8-69 Andersen, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It started a right turn after t/o and crashed in the sea killing all six aboard. Pilot- Capt Larry Broadhead; CP-.Maurice Lundy; RN- Capt Russell Platt; NAV- Maj James Sipes; EWO- Lt Thomas McCormick; G- MSgt Harry Deal. (Operational loss no. 1).

(Unknown) B52D 7-28-69 Anderson, no. 56-0693 was lost on takeoff from Guam. It crashed into the sea killing all eight aboard. (Op Loss no. 2).

(Unknown) B52G 7-8-72 Anderson, no. 59-2600 was over the Philippine Sea. For unknown reasons its radome separated from the airplane. The pilot/copilot reacted incorrectly and subsequently lost all airspeed. All six crewmen successfully bailed out, but one, the RN (a LtCol) got a streamer. The other five crewmen were rescued. (No. 3)

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0047 collided with no. 57-0179 over the South Pacific while circling awaiting KC-135As for pre-strike air refueling. 4 survivors, 8 fatalities among the 12 crewmen. (Op Loss 4).

(Unknown) B52F 6-18-65 Andersen, no. 57-0179 collided with no. 57-0047.
(Operational loss no. 5).

Red 1 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0627 had a mid-air collision with no. 56-0595 over South China Sea near Saigon while changing formation lead. See below, next entry. Seven survivors, six fatalities(#) among the 13 crewmembers. Crew: E-06, 22nd BW, March AFB, CA. P- Capt John Suther; CP- Wilcox Creeden; RN- Maj Paul Avolese(#); Nav- Lt William Gabel; EWO- Capt David Bitten(#);G-SSgt Lynn Chase.; Airborne Commander- Maj Gen William Crumm, 3rd (#), Air Division Commander. (Op loss 6).

Red 2 B52D 7-6-67 no. 56-0595 collided with no. 56-0627. See entry above. Crew: E-10, 454th BW. P- Capt George Westbrook; CP- (name unk); RN- George Jones; EWO- Toki Endo G- Msgt Olen McLaughlin (#). NAV- unkown. (Op loss 7).


Out of 498 BUFF sorties over Hanoi/Haiphong the loss rate was 1.7% (.017). Source: Linebacker II: A View From the Rock published by the Air War College in 1979. (Note: 2001 Boeing records list 32 B52 aircraft hit by SAMs. Other sources state that there were a total of 724 B-52 sorties flown during LB II).

---------------------------------------------------


During the period April 9, 1972 thru January 14, 1973, 16 other B-52s (one G-model and 15 D-models) received major battle damage (caused by SAMs), over North Vietnam. Following is a list of these sixteen B52s (aircraft recovered, no deaths or injuries reported):

Serial No. Date of damage Remarks (All damage noted was from SAMs)

D 56-0665 4-9-72 Landed at Danang and flown to U-Tapao, Thailand. 156 damaged areas. Repaired and placed back in service, according to Boeing maintenance records. Contradicting this information, the plane is unaccounted for according to authors Dorr & Peacock. Contradicting Dorrs information, there is a B52D now on display at Wright-Patterson with the number 56-0665 painted on the side. If youre confused, read the next two paragraphs.

D 56-0589 4-23-72 Landed at Danang and later flown to U-Tapao. Approximately 400 outer surface holes. 20,000 manhours. Placed back in commission 1-9-73. Currently located at Wright-Patterson AFB, Dayton, Ohio, according to Boeing. Contradicting this information, authors Dorr & Peacock, in an appendix, state that 56-0589 was ultimately disposed to ground instruction at Sheppard, Texas.

To complicate the issue of the two notes above, Dorr & Peacock state that the aircraft now on display at Wright-Patterson is B-52B no. 53-0394. However, to the casual observer of B-52 models, the plane on display is certainly not 53-0394 (as stated by Dorr), because it has the large wingtip fuel tanks common to the B-52 D model, not the small ones characteristic of a B-52 B model. Now that youre really confused, the sign located at the B-52 at Wright-Patterson states words to the effect, ...suffered battle damage over Vietnam, exhibiting over 400 holes... This description matches the Boeing Maintenance records for 56-0589...yet the number 53-0665 is currently painted on the side. Im confused...are you? We need a volunteer B-52 history buff to visit the cockpit, look on the back of the door, and find out the real number.

D 56-0604 11-5-72 Landed at U-Tapao. 333 external damage areas. Using horizontal stabilizer from 55-097. Estimated time in commission (ETIC) 2-1-73.

D 55-0052 11-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Approx 20 holes. Repairable by T.O. 1B-52B-3. In commission 1-9-73.

D 56-0678 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. No inspar damage. ETIC 7-30-73. Est. 60,000 manhours. 350 external holes; 24 areas require kits. Lilac 03.

D 56-0583 12-18-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Returned to service 12-20-72 minus three repairs 53 manhours. 10 external holes plus several dents and gouges.

D 56-0592 12-18-72 Landed at NamPhong, Thailand; one time flight to U-Tapao 12-23-72. ETIC 3-15-73. External holes estimated 2,000 manhours.

G 58-0254 12-18-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. Sheet metal damage top of fuselage 30 to 50 holes. Minus three repairs.

D 55-0067 12-22-72 Landed at U-Tapao. Minus three repairs. In commission 1-9-73. 70 manhours. Nineteen external holes. Call sign Brick 2.

D 55-0051 12-24-72 Landed at U-Tapao. In commission 1-9-73. 226 manhours. Eleven external holes.

D 55-0062 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. Dash 3 repairs. Returned to service 12-27-72. Cream 1.

D 55-0090 12-26-72 Landed at Andersen AFB, Guam. Dash 3 repairs. Returned to service 12-28-72. Cream 2.

D 56-0629 12-26-72. Landed at U-Tapao. Black 03 B-52D. TOT 1609Z Duc Noi 37,000 MSL. Returned to service 12-31-72. 63 manhours to repair fourteen external holes plus three dents.

D 55-0052 1-8-73 Second incident. Landed at U-Tapao. Approx. 45 holes.

D 55-0116 1-14-73 Landed at Danang. Over 200 holes. Left wing section 21 needs replacing. Left drop tank numerous holes. Removed both; being salvaged 4-1-73. (According to one source there was not enough time before the cease-fire to salvage the aircraft so it was scraped).

D 55-0058 1-14-73 Landed at U-Tapao. Took hits from 2 of 6 SA-2s
fired just prior to drop. More hits from 1 of 3 more SAMs on exit. Over 120 holes. Geoff Engels, a/c commander, Gunner, Jack Attebury, C/P Ernie Perrow, NAV Mike Gjede, EW "Torch" Torsiello, RN (Unknown).

Note: Source of aircraft dataBoeing maintenance records. Note that Boeing records show 19 aircraft were lost in combatbut that has to be in error. Nos. G 58-0216 (19 Dec 72) and G 57-6472 (20 Dec 72), shown as downed in combat, later flew in the 1980s. The correct total number of B52s lost in combat must be 17. However, eight additional B-52s were operational losses while enroute to a combat area. Total Vietnam B52 loses: 25.

Tail Gunner Note: B52-D serial no. 55-083, Diamond Lil, is now on display at the USAFA. The plaque at the aircraft states that that aircraft was one of two B52s to shoot down an enemy MIG during the Vietnam conflict. The date of the confirmed MiG 21 kill is recorded as December 24, 1972. Tailgunner Moore of the 307SW. A second B-52D got a confirmed kill: 56-676 got a MiG 21 kill 18 Dec 72. Tailgunner Turner of the 307SW. Present location of 56-676 unknown.

--------------------------------------

Number of active SA-75MK Dvina batteries around Hanoi:
18 - 9
19 - 10
20 - 10
21 - 9
22 - 9
26 - 13
27 - 12
28 - 11
29 - 8

On nine occasions, the SAM units received hits (in 8 cases from bombs, 1 case from Shrike [73.battery]).
It disabled 5 battery temporarily, and one [73.battery] finally.

Destroyed:
1pcs PAA cabin (hit by Shrike, copletely destroyed)
The 73. battery was illuminating the target for 80s, when their PAA was hit by Shrike.

Damaged:
3pcs PA-11/12 antenna
1pcs RPK antenna
5pcs DES-75 diesel generator
9pcs launchers
15pcs missiles
1pcs ATS-59 tractor
cabling at 3 battalions


Against B52, they launched 244 missile, on 135 occasions*.
Against other planes, they launched 55 missiles, on 34 occasions*.
*Hanoi and Haiphong

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/15/11 01:06 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3367393 - 08/15/11 01:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Let me add something to Kairo's question... There is information about how many SAM operators have died during the Linebacker II? I believe they also had regular NVA soldiers along the batteries, operating AAA. How many military engineers and soldiers were killed "inside" the SAM sites during Operation Linebacker II?

I ask these questions with the goal to understand the life risk for the operators, engineers and soldiers that performed their duty on the SAM sitesand and the resulting pressure that operators faced in their jobs.

Thank you.

EDIT: Several B-52 that landed "safely" on South Vietnam were also unable to be repaired, being removed from combat... But on official records, weren't considered "combat losses".
Also, some accidents in South Vietnam were recorded as "operational casualties", even when the aircraft in question was severely damaged by anti-aircraft fire. I had the numbers, but I let my stuff on my hometown frown

Last edited by Redcoalition; 08/15/11 02:06 PM.
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