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#3359667 - 08/05/11 12:22 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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MK_PL Offline
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Poland
A key remapping option would help, but you know... Hpasp is probably busy enough.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3359671 - 08/05/11 12:30 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hungary, Europe
Hi!
Some thing are always annoying me when I use SAM Simulator, and I wouldn't talk about it,
(to not kill Hpasp in programing!), but I think know it's the time to talk about it!
look:
when we travel between different screen - to go to the different panel: EWR Scope, Plotting table(IADS), ...-
we use simple keys -W,X,C, Q,S, A,Z,Y- to navigate between, since beginning I ask my self, Why -W,X,C,Q,S,A,Z,Y- ??
not logic at all ! and not efficient for tactical mode, (in my humble view!), that's why I have this "wish" in my mind,
ONE PIC is more clear than thousand words: (Neva example with Up Down Left Right keys only)


Hi,

When the writing of this simulation started 6 years ago, we made several decisions...
- The Russian writing above the switches should be readable, for the old FCO's.
- As the whole Volhov Panel would not fit into the screen, we need to be able to quickly look around...
... so the idea of switching with the mouse, looking with the buttons, borne.

Q - looking up
A - looking middle
Z/Y - looking down
W - plotting board - implemented later (in reality looking up left)
X - P18 - implemented later (in reality looking down left)
S - GShV panel (blocked in current releases)


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3359694 - 08/05/11 01:11 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Posts: 105
PN79 Offline
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Posts: 105
Actually I like that plotting board is so messed in the Vietnam scenario. It forces me to use P-18 radar intensively and it is bigger challenge.

#3359714 - 08/05/11 01:50 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: MK_PL]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Kairo Offline
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Kairo  Offline
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Algeria
Originally Posted By: MK_PL
It seems that the clock on your TV also shows target bearing. 35 degrees.
Nice feature!
Originally Posted By: Kairo




really good observation ! sicko

Last edited by Kairo; 08/05/11 01:52 PM.

Sgt/C. Kairo
#3359731 - 08/05/11 02:24 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Redcoalition  Offline
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Posts: 58
Brazil
I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
1rst. What's exactly the GShV, and how it works?
2nd. How was done the engajement via-Karat optical channel? What were the procedures, what the operators saw, how was the scoope?

Kairo,
I'm translating first manual to portuguese, when I finnish it i'll begin to seek for the information already posted on the forum for you wink

#3359754 - 08/05/11 02:59 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
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Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
1rst. What's exactly the GShV, and how it works?


When the KRUG was fielded in large numbers in the WARPACT, the US started the use of the Angular Jamming Technique.
This is mostly developed against the monopulse radars (SA-4/SA-5/SA-6/SA-8/SA-10, ...) but it can also confuse older TWS radars (SA-2/SA-3) also.

Thus the GSh instrument was developed, to counter these kind of jamming utilizing a special TWS technique.
For the Volhov, it was called GShV.
For the Neva, it was called GShN.

So far, this kind of jamming is not simulated in the SIM...
... and its technique is not discussed.
cowboy

Last edited by Hpasp; 08/05/11 03:38 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3359763 - 08/05/11 03:12 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
I have few questions, but they aren't directly related to the SIM...
2nd. How was done the engajement via-Karat optical channel? What were the procedures, what the operators saw, how was the scoope?


The Elevation, and Azimuth tracking was manual.
Guidance method is T/T.

Radio Proximity fuse was activated with RAB.ot.VM. method, or using radio-electronic measurement, but then the whole point was lost.

This is what Karat was seen during a Hercules engagement...


Last edited by Hpasp; 08/05/11 03:14 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3359836 - 08/05/11 05:44 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
SAM Simulator release plan

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

v923 is planned to be released about the end of this year.
It is planned to contain the Dvina.

v924 is planned to be released during next year.
It is planned to contain the Silka.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3359912 - 08/05/11 09:12 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 58
Redcoalition Offline
Junior Member
Redcoalition  Offline
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Posts: 58
Brazil
Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina doghouse. Or Am I wrong?

And I'm waiting for the answer regarding the S-300, if someone knows, please, I'd like to know smile

#3359998 - 08/05/11 11:11 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
NaiseFail Offline
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NaiseFail  Offline
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Virginia
Nice pictures as always. thumbsup

While playing around at Asuluk I noticed the AAR doesn't show if targets were jamming. This also led me to another thought; I remember you posted a .djvu file of SA-2 shooting reports. I'm assuming that every time a battery engages a target they fill out a form. What if you used that form as a template for the AAR? This might be a really bad idea, and/or not worth the time it would take to do it, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyways.

#3360016 - 08/05/11 11:49 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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vintorez Offline
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Posts: 108
AFAIK, there was a little smile difference between Dvina's and Volkhov's optical systems. Volkhow employed a TV camera, while Dvina used... two pairs of eyes (occupators of the 'doghouse') probably supplemented by some simple optics (scopes, binoculars? - I wonder, in order to see a plane from 20 km away, one should need huge magnification... Hpasp, how was the real range of optical tracking in Dvina, assuming perfect weather conditions?)

#3360023 - 08/06/11 12:11 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Posts: 108
vintorez Offline
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Posts: 108
Hpasp, small interface corrections needed (especially in Egyptian and Vietnam scenarios):

missile selection - pictures of 5Ja23 and 20DSU sometimes do not match the names, and newer versions of 5V27 appear on quad launchers (not the case in 1970/72, and not modelled in historical scenarios).

Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile

#3360026 - 08/06/11 12:13 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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vintorez Offline
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vintorez  Offline
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Posts: 108
Redcoalition, what was your question regarding the S-300?

#3360050 - 08/06/11 12:42 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: vintorez]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
NaiseFail Offline
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NaiseFail  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
Virginia
Originally Posted By: vintorez
Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile


Agreed. The other idea presented is somewhat flawed in that it's overly complex. Using either the arrow keys or the mouse to move around means you need to memorize all of the directions you can move from each panel. I'm on the SA-5 Tall King screen and I want to go to the IADS screen, so that would mean pressing right and up twice instead of simply pressing E. Also, this would use the arrow keys which means they can't be used to adjust the radar.

#3360074 - 08/06/11 01:07 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Kairo Offline
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Kairo  Offline
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Algeria
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Hi!
Some thing are always annoying me when I use SAM Simulator, and I wouldn't talk about it,
(to not kill Hpasp in programing!), but I think know it's the time to talk about it!
look:
when we travel between different screen - to go to the different panel: EWR Scope, Plotting table(IADS), ...-
we use simple keys -W,X,C, Q,S, A,Z,Y- to navigate between, since beginning I ask my self, Why -W,X,C,Q,S,A,Z,Y- ??
not logic at all ! and not efficient for tactical mode, (in my humble view!), that's why I have this "wish" in my mind,
ONE PIC is more clear than thousand words: (Neva example with Up Down Left Right keys only)


Hi,

When the writing of this simulation started 6 years ago, we made several decisions...
- The Russian writing above the switches should be readable, for the old FCO's.
- As the whole Volhov Panel would not fit into the screen, we need to be able to quickly look around...
... so the idea of switching with the mouse, looking with the buttons, borne.

Q - looking up
A - looking middle
Z/Y - looking down
W - plotting board - implemented later (in reality looking up left)
X - P18 - implemented later (in reality looking down left)
S - GShV panel (blocked in current releases)





you know, some answers seems like illogic for me ..... because in the ground it have no sense !

then with deep observing ...... EUREKA !!! .....I found it ..... we are not using the same keyboard mapping,

I think you are using an QWERTY keyboard, and I'm using an AZERTY one!

with QWERTY keyboard it's right and logic.
with AZERTY one, your answers seems like illogic at all, and not efficient for tactical use mode,

and I do a test: with Arabic Keyboard we can't change between the screens !
(and may be all others non Latin keyboard will not work also! -Japanese. china, Hindi ...- )

I think Keys Up/Down, Right/Left is more compatible for all keyboards.

But even if we opt to use mouse directly to do "the slide" is a cool idea,
just click (or only put the mouse cursor for less 1sec), in extreme right or extreme left will automatically change the Panel !,
and same for up and down screen !

this Idea goes not to delete old keys stroke organisation! it will be added to it.

Last edited by Kairo; 08/06/11 01:43 AM.

Sgt/C. Kairo
#3360117 - 08/06/11 02:15 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: NaiseFail]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Kairo Offline
Member
Kairo  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Algeria
Originally Posted By: NaiseFail
Originally Posted By: vintorez
Present screen switch model (Z-X-C, A-S- etc.) is good: 1) it emulates real placement of the panels, and 2) I got used to that smile


Agreed. The other idea presented is somewhat flawed in that it's overly complex. Using either the arrow keys or the mouse to move around means you need to memorize all of the directions you can move from each panel. I'm on the SA-5 Tall King screen and I want to go to the IADS screen, so that would mean pressing right and up twice instead of simply pressing E. Also, this would use the arrow keys which means they can't be used to adjust the radar.


Dear all!
for Vintorez:
you are right, for Qwerty Keyboard, but not if you use others keyboard mapping, maybe Azerty one !(try to use it..)

for NaiseFail:
I don't know if you have already see on the ground the real disposition of the panels,
if you work alone in one of this fire Cabin, you will see that you must pass along all panels to reach the ones you want!
you can't bypass panels in middle to jump directly to the ones you want, you must have in your mind the complete "Image"
of all panels and there dispositions in firing cabin, to be able to use it and to go to desired panel !, in reality you waste some times to reach panels.
and simply pressing ... a key, is not the real world! (it's my personal think!)



Last edited by Kairo; 08/06/11 02:16 AM.

Sgt/C. Kairo
#3360121 - 08/06/11 02:20 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Kairo Offline
Member
Kairo  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 139
Algeria
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
SAM Simulator release plan

v922c is planned to be released within few weeks.
It will contain the Pause/2x/4x time compression, and some minor fixes.

v923 is planned to be released about the end of this year.
It is planned to contain the Dvina.

v924 is planned to be released during next year.
It is planned to contain the Silka.


I don't know why, but I feel all these releases will be more early .......... (I really hope!)


Sgt/C. Kairo
#3360172 - 08/06/11 03:51 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Kairo]  
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
NaiseFail Offline
Member
NaiseFail  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 210
Virginia
Originally Posted By: Kairo
for NaiseFail:
I don't know if you have already see on the ground the real disposition of the panels,
if you work alone in one of this fire Cabin, you will see that you must pass along all panels to reach the ones you want!
you can't bypass panels in middle to jump directly to the ones you want, you must have in your mind the complete "Image"
of all panels and there dispositions in firing cabin, to be able to use it and to go to desired panel !, in reality you waste some times to reach panels.
and simply pressing ... a key, is not the real world! (it's my personal think!)


No offense, but your argument is invalid. Some things have to be abstracted and/or simplified simply because a computer simulation, no matter how realistic, can never function 100% like the real life system. The simpler solution to this would probably be for the SAM Sim installer to either ask for, or detect your keyboard layout and use a profile made for that type of keyboard.

#3360223 - 08/06/11 08:06 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina doghouse. Or Am I wrong?

And I'm waiting for the answer regarding the S-300, if someone knows, please, I'd like to know smile


What was the question?


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3360228 - 08/06/11 08:15 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hpasp Offline
Hpasp  Offline

Senior Member

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,665
Hungary, Europe
Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Thanks Hpasp!
When reading the manual again I saw things that scaped me the first time... Like: The Volhov series had added the optical channel later than the Dvina? Because looks like the first time Volhov had a TV camera was with S-75M3-OP, in 1983, but the Dvina had it since 1969, with the SA-75M Dvina doghouse. Or Am I wrong?


Correct.
The Volhov/Neva/KRUG/KUB was much less susceptible against jamming, than the Dvina.
When different jamming techniques started to be used by the US, the Karat was added to these.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
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