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#3353519 - 07/28/11 01:36 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: Para_Bellum]  
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Originally Posted By: Para_Bellum
Originally Posted By: soaringbird

There is a reason why people at this forum who are using color calibrators, who are doing color grading job tell you the colors are ok in the game. Perhaps it should be enough reason to borrow or rent calibration device just for a single try at least.


*sigh*

My monitor is properly calibrated every month using a hardware tool since I work with printing processes and colours every day. There are several Pantone and HKS colour guides about a meter from where I sit and a full-spectrum lamp hanging over a worktable. Colours and the way they are displayed under various conditions is an important part of my job.

And I think the colours in IL2:CoD are totally off.


So don't come here and start preaching that CoD's colour palette is just fine and the ignorant gamers just don't know any better.

rolleyes


In the printing industry everybody use so-called wide gamut monitors because it's a kind of standard for the printing equipment. Surprised you don't know that. There is no game in the world that would show you nothing but insanely over-saturated colors on such a monitor. Calibration can't do anything with that. Try it on a calibrated sRGB screen before making your statements. All the games and movies are considered to be seen on a monitor with a standard color gamut.

End even if you see nice colors on a WG monitor in some games or movies it's just because of somebody like me actually processed colors there from precise representation to something brown/olive or indigo or whatever.


Last edited by soaringbird; 07/28/11 01:59 PM.
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#3353528 - 07/28/11 01:51 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  

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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
Soaringbird, if i post 3 pictures here...

One of COD
One of England(real)
One of Modded IL2 England

all 3 on my badly calibrated monitor, and each one shows different colors, and only two look like what i see with my eyes out the window.

can we then discount what your saying?


Post them please, I'm always interested to see comparisons smile

#3353562 - 07/28/11 02:24 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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REAL (obviously)


By furbs9999 at 2011-07-26

REAL again

By furbs9999 at 2010-10-16
COD

By furbs9999 at 2011-07-19
OLD COD

By furbs9999 at 2011-07-08

Now this is the modded COD shot...


By furbs9999 at 2011-07-27

OLD SOW...

By furbs9999 at 2010-10-25


By furbs9999 at 2010-10-25

To me on my badly calibrated monitor all these shots show different colours, some more than others but the one that looks the LEAST like the England out my WINDOW is the COD screen.



Last edited by BKHZ_Furbs; 07/28/11 02:29 PM.
#3353580 - 07/28/11 02:34 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Nice, Furbs.
I will add, though, that the photo does look more like autumn or spring to me, as opposed to summer...
however I know from seeing lots of photos of England in summer (and, of course, from flying over it) that the colours are similar to RD's photos, and also to the recent mod-work for CloD. (and also very different to CloD, currently.)

Personally, colour is lower on the list of terrain priorities, as opposed to tree-layout/colour etc


"Our name is Hornet Squadron, no bloody good are we.
We cannot shoot, we can not fight, nor march like infantry.
But when it comes to pay parade, we shout with all our might:
Per Ardua ad Astra, Up yours Jack we're alright!"

Flt Lt Kellaway
#3353586 - 07/28/11 02:38 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Cheers Phil,
This is a early shot of COD


By furbs9999 at 2010-10-15

How is the name of anything holy can anyone in their sane mind think this was England at any stage of development.

This is what we are dealing with, though i guess soaringbird will tell us this is close too.

i rest my flippin ENGLISH case smile

#3353593 - 07/28/11 02:43 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Those real pictures of england you posted cannot be in summer because its not raining. biggrin

#3353607 - 07/28/11 02:53 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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I believe you that the last screens appear ok on your screen. They illustrate very well what is wrong with your monitor. Just bring them in Photoshop or Gimp and decrease the overall saturation down to -30. It would be what a standard gamut monitor, not an Eizo one from printing industry, probably show you after a calibration (considering you already have a right gamma that is another story). Notice how everything would look dull ,cloudy and lifeless. That is how most modern games and movies being processed look on a properly calibrated sRGB screens. Even your weirdly exposed photo looks nothing like those screens with much more natural grass color.

#3353621 - 07/28/11 03:00 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: soaringbird]  
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Originally Posted By: soaringbird


In the printing industry everybody use so-called wide gamut monitors because it's a kind of standard for the printing equipment. Surprised you don't know that. There is no game in the world that would show you nothing but insanely over-saturated colors on such a monitor. Calibration can't do anything with that. Try it on a calibrated sRGB screen before making your statements. All the games and movies are considered to be seen on a monitor with a standard color gamut.

End even if you see nice colors on a WG monitor in some games or movies it's just because of somebody like me actually processed colors there from precise representation to something brown/olive or indigo or whatever.




So wait. Your trying to say that a wide gamut monitor, when properly calibrated to display proper colors is actually going to make a video game look garish and over saturated for no other reason than it can display more colors in a certain range? Seriously?

Sorry it doesn't work that way. The monitor doesn't generate color that isn't there. All calibration is going to do is display the colors the same on two given monitors. If the first monitor creates a green of a specific hue it will display the same on another monitor assuming it was calibrated to the same temperature. If the second monitor has a wider gamut it's not going to display that specific green any different than it was on the first monitor, it's not going to oversaturate it either. The second monitor with the wider gamut can just display a wider variety of greens more accurately.

Quite frankly i think you are one of those people that has a little information and kinda ran with it a little too far and assumed quite a few things that just aren't true.

I've been a pro photographer for the last 15 years and an amateur photographer for 10 before that. I have 3 monitors at home, one is a high end wide gamut monitor i use specifically for photo editing when it has to be perfect, the other is just a higher end gaming monitor and the third is just some generic monitor. All three are color calibrated and all three display colors in CLOD the same once calibrated. They all show it with garish flourescent colors before and after calibration because the default color palette chosen for the game is rather odd and doesn't reflect real life on a daily basis.

I also did some terrain and texture tweaking in this game. the dark tree mod that's floating around was a tweaked version of the one i did. I also experimented on the terrain textures trying to improve them before completely losing interest and realizing i was probably not even going to play this broken travesty of a game. I can tell you flat out, the default landscape textures have a HUGE amount of yellow in them. In fact the amount of yellow is jarring. Once the yellow is removed alone the landscape looks much better and more realistic and matches up with photo samples in color much much more closely than the default textures. The problem with the game though is that in addition to the odd color palette choices they also made some odd lighting color temp choices that really mess with the terrain textures. I had terrain textures at the end that in photoshop were very color accurate and much more realistic but once you put them in game they were destroyed by the games lighting.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but telling people the game looks like crap because their monitor isn't calibrated is absolutely and totally ridiculous and inaccurate. I own both a colorvision spyder pro 3 and a Coloreyes display pro that i use to calibrate mine and the game doesn't look much different using either. If you think the game looks realistic on your calibrated monitor, great, that's your personal opinion. My photographers eye and my years of editing landscape photos though will tell you that the colors in the game i've only ever seen on very unique lighting and atmospheric conditions and very rarely. You'd usually only see results like in game if your camera's white balance was set completely wrong.

#3353675 - 07/28/11 03:39 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: soaringbird]  
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Newcastle Upon Tyne, England.
Originally Posted By: soaringbird
Originally Posted By: Philip_ed
Soaringbird, colour doesn't affect:
-field layouts
-tree layouts and placements
-a lack of hedgerows
-an unrealistic patchwork effect of different fields all thrown together with a sprinkling of 'tropical colouring' thrown on the top (I hear what you're saying regarding colours, but unless the lighting system is seriously sorted out, the transition between all hours of the day does not show a broad spectrum of realistic colours). As recent mod work has shown, a movement towards a more fluid system of fields has made the scenary look impressively better (see Rocket-Dogs photos to see what I mean regarding the placement of fields)
-tree type. It sounds incredibly picky, but the trees look like lollipops from altitude when, in actual fact, the tres should blend seemlessly with the terrain (like one dense mass of foliage)



I actually agree with your points . I argue only with some lime or acid “garish” greens/yellow colors some people mentioned . Anytime you see something asid or lime green/yellow in the game is due to wrong monitor color saturation and gamma. All other things like trees are not enough dark have a good ground. The game actually lacks some decent vivid green colors now after they did their small recent adjustments. And the photos posted in the thread prove it quite well.
I do not live in England but pretty sure the green grass is green there too not dull brown/olive one like in WoP, many other games/movies or some editions people offered here.
Ironically my own job consists a task of adjusting colors for consumers monitors so I am doing pretty much the same with greens and yellows because they appears sometimes twice more saturated on peoples monitors.
Just make an experiment. Bring a photo with something green-yellow, fresh grass for example, in Photoshop or Gimp and change the saturation +/- 30. You would notice that green/yellow are the only color that is mostly changing. This kind of colors is thus most dependent of a correct monitor calibration and you could see it wrong on your monitor while everything other would look pretty much spot on. That makes an illusion for many that their monitors are ok and calibrated.
The calibrated monitor is not one you spent hours to adjust. A human eye is very unreliable tool for that . You could easily make it worse than before and the risk is more high more hours you spent adjusting.





Well soaringbird, I will give you some credit in that you are now revising your previous position of 'everything is great' RE: the CoD landscape, including the minutiae of tree/hedge placement etc, and at last it seems like people are getting through now. England is homogeneously verdant, and even granted that the summer of 1940 was an unusually hot one, we are not talking Mediterranean like, tropical hues, which is what people are seeing when they play CoD....regardless of calibration etc it is just plain wrong.

You keep bringing up monitors and calibration. Lets forget about monitors for a moment please. The point people are making is that it looks nothing like that which they see when they look out of the window. The trusty MkI eyeball. Again granted that for many reasons a photograph can never be an ideal recreation of reality for many reasons, the ones posted still look far more like what we (who know) actually see .. I'll humour you and say that my monitor is hopelessly out of whack (it's not). Given this hypothetical BS, the photos he posted would still look more like England than CoD! *Sigh*. How hard is that to understand? You seem like a reasonably intelligent bloke?

The reason you are seeing neatly segued, orderly and bordered fields etc in reality (as opposed to the chaotic, willy nilly speedtree mess of CoD) is primarily due to land reform acts (The Great Reform act of 1832 etc)....people (initially the middle classes who already had capital value) having ownership and tenure of land/smallholdings which is delineated by borders. Think 'my garden fence'. Please look at Furbs pictures on page seven again. I do not for the life of me understand how you think CoD's landscape is even a remotely accurate representation of England. It is wrong on so many levels its untrue. Yes, its important. When I'm 'flying' over something purporting to be England, I'd like it to at least resemble England. Not some Peyote-LSD induced 'Spirit-Vision' of England that has no basis in reality. It truly is that awful....and I'm not exaggerating.

That said, it is nothing that cannot be relatively easily fixed! The comments of Furbs, Phil ed, and most are correct. Yes, I've been ribbing you a bit, but its not meant in a mean fashion. You can expect a ribbing though when you try and tell people what their own country looks like....its as simple as that. biggrin

Thats all from me, because it feels like I'm talking to a brick frikking wall frankly lol. I give up. Take care and have fun in 'Club Tropicana', and do say hello to George Michael for me. If he's out of jail that is. biggrin


"I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals".

Sir Winston Churchill
#3353728 - 07/28/11 04:20 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: swampthng]  
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Originally Posted By: swampthng
Originally Posted By: soaringbird


In the printing industry everybody use so-called wide gamut monitors because it's a kind of standard for the printing equipment. Surprised you don't know that. There is no game in the world that would show you nothing but insanely over-saturated colors on such a monitor. Calibration can't do anything with that. Try it on a calibrated sRGB screen before making your statements. All the games and movies are considered to be seen on a monitor with a standard color gamut.

End even if you see nice colors on a WG monitor in some games or movies it's just because of somebody like me actually processed colors there from precise representation to something brown/olive or indigo or whatever.




So wait. Your trying to say that a wide gamut monitor, when properly calibrated to display proper colors is actually going to make a video game look garish and over saturated for no other reason than it can display more colors in a certain range? Seriously?

Sorry it doesn't work that way. The monitor doesn't generate color that isn't there. All calibration is going to do is display the colors the same on two given monitors. If the first monitor creates a green of a specific hue it will display the same on another monitor assuming it was calibrated to the same temperature. If the second monitor has a wider gamut it's not going to display that specific green any different than it was on the first monitor, it's not going to oversaturate it either. The second monitor with the wider gamut can just display a wider variety of greens more accurately.

Quite frankly i think you are one of those people that has a little information and kinda ran with it a little too far and assumed quite a few things that just aren't true.

I've been a pro photographer for the last 15 years and an amateur photographer for 10 before that. I have 3 monitors at home, one is a high end wide gamut monitor i use specifically for photo editing when it has to be perfect, the other is just a higher end gaming monitor and the third is just some generic monitor. All three are color calibrated and all three display colors in CLOD the same once calibrated. They all show it with garish flourescent colors before and after calibration because the default color palette chosen for the game is rather odd and doesn't reflect real life on a daily basis.

I also did some terrain and texture tweaking in this game. the dark tree mod that's floating around was a tweaked version of the one i did. I also experimented on the terrain textures trying to improve them before completely losing interest and realizing i was probably not even going to play this broken travesty of a game. I can tell you flat out, the default landscape textures have a HUGE amount of yellow in them. In fact the amount of yellow is jarring. Once the yellow is removed alone the landscape looks much better and more realistic and matches up with photo samples in color much much more closely than the default textures. The problem with the game though is that in addition to the odd color palette choices they also made some odd lighting color temp choices that really mess with the terrain textures. I had terrain textures at the end that in photoshop were very color accurate and much more realistic but once you put them in game they were destroyed by the games lighting.


Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but telling people the game looks like crap because their monitor isn't calibrated is absolutely and totally ridiculous and inaccurate. I own both a colorvision spyder pro 3 and a Coloreyes display pro that i use to calibrate mine and the game doesn't look much different using either. If you think the game looks realistic on your calibrated monitor, great, that's your personal opinion. My photographers eye and my years of editing landscape photos though will tell you that the colors in the game i've only ever seen on very unique lighting and atmospheric conditions and very rarely. You'd usually only see results like in game if your camera's white balance was set completely wrong.


I am sorry to say it to you but even from your first few lines it looks like you have not very clear understanding of how colors are displayed within different gamuts and the color management in general.

Yes, seriously, the same color looks absolutely different in different gamuts.(more garish within more wide gamut) . That's why Photoshop or other “color aware” applications have it's own color engine that recalculates color from any sRGB image to be shown right on wide gamut monitor (considering color management is set up correctly). Games have no color engine, they output colors without any gamut aware correction as if it would be displayed on a sRGB monitor. No calibrator in the world can turn your monitor from Wide to sRGB. Not even every colorimeter are suited to work with wide gamut dysplays. Some monitors can do a kind of emulation but it's never good and precise . And colors have a kind of relative, relative to a gamut, values not absolute. They are not measured in cm or kg. So, for example, rgb 25,221,48 would be actually two different colors in different gamuts. And that's why Photoshop writes color profiles to images so those digits would be related to a certain gamut and thus can be adjusted by its color engine.

That's why all those wide gamut monitor are never used anywhere beyond printing industry and pretty much hated everywhere else like web design, games, movies etc.
So yes, a wide gamut monitor, even properly calibrated to display proper colors (within its wider gamut) is actually going to make a video game look garish and over saturated. It's true and you do have to see it or you did something wrong. Just google “WG vs sRGB” and you find a lot of info about it.


Last edited by soaringbird; 07/28/11 04:40 PM.
#3353729 - 07/28/11 04:21 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: NineLives]  
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Originally Posted By: NineLives
Surely if our monitors were badly calibrated then real photos of the English countryside would look wrong as well. And yet we use these as references because we know they look right. And by the way I spent hours calibrating my screen both for colour and shading and it's spot on. And COD still doesn't look right biggrin


This is why soaringbird is 100% barking up the wrong tree. If CloD's biazzare colours were a consequence of poorly-calibrated monitors, then everything shown on them should look wrong. Yet RoF, FSX, Portal 2, photos of my dog, CloD's aircraft, CloD's vehicles and CloD's skies all look OK on my supposedly hopeless monitor. In fact, if we were to adjust the colours enough to get CloD's pastel landscape looking like it had more bright green, that would make the aircraft, vehicles and sky in CloD look more than a bit strange.

Ho Hum.


Beyond gliding distance
#3353735 - 07/28/11 04:28 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: RocketDog]  
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Originally Posted By: RocketDog
Originally Posted By: NineLives
Surely if our monitors were badly calibrated then real photos of the English countryside would look wrong as well. And yet we use these as references because we know they look right. And by the way I spent hours calibrating my screen both for colour and shading and it's spot on. And COD still doesn't look right biggrin


This is why soaringbird is 100% barking up the wrong tree. If CloD's biazzare colours were a consequence of poorly-calibrated monitors, then everything shown on them should look wrong. Yet RoF, FSX, Portal 2, photos of my dog, CloD's aircraft, CloD's vehicles and CloD's skies all look OK on my supposedly hopeless monitor. In fact, if we were to adjust the colours enough to get CloD's pastel landscape looking like it had more bright green, that would make the aircraft, vehicles and sky in CloD look more than a bit strange.

Ho Hum.






That is a very very good point! i never thought of that!(the aircraft and ground models bit)

soaringbird, over to you.

Last edited by BKHZ_Furbs; 07/28/11 04:28 PM.
#3353788 - 07/28/11 05:18 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: RocketDog]  
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Originally Posted By: RocketDog
Originally Posted By: NineLives
Surely if our monitors were badly calibrated then real photos of the English countryside would look wrong as well. And yet we use these as references because we know they look right. And by the way I spent hours calibrating my screen both for colour and shading and it's spot on. And COD still doesn't look right biggrin


This is why soaringbird is 100% barking up the wrong tree. If CloD's biazzare colours were a consequence of poorly-calibrated monitors, then everything shown on them should look wrong. Yet RoF, FSX, Portal 2, photos of my dog, CloD's aircraft, CloD's vehicles and CloD's skies all look OK on my supposedly hopeless monitor. In fact, if we were to adjust the colours enough to get CloD's pastel landscape looking like it had more bright green, that would make the aircraft, vehicles and sky in CloD look more than a bit strange.

Ho Hum.







No, everything is plain opposite. When your monitor is over saturated the most over saturation goes to yellow and green colors while many other colors are hardly affected so you probably would not see any difference. Just make the experiment in Photoshop I told a few posts ago. It works the same way with a monitor saturation. So any picture with anything a bit yellow would show that yellow part sometimes twice more saturated than it should be on your wrong monitor while brown , grey, olive etc colors still would be almost the same. You may see your dog or whatever looking natural while a kind of bright green or yellow grass or anything would be just insane.
You would think in that case that probably it's a kind of camera fault but actually evrything is ok with your camera and many modern cameras actually desaturates bright yellow/greens a bit.

#3353805 - 07/28/11 05:29 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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So ALL our monitors are just badly calibrated for a tiny number of colors?....oh feck it....yep im out of here, im done soaringbird, you have beat me down. im toast.

Good luck all.

#3353818 - 07/28/11 05:43 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Just do what I offered. Bring a few images to Gimp if you don't have Photoshop. And try to adjust saturation +/-30. You will see what kind of colors are affected and what way. It will explain it to you.

#3353826 - 07/28/11 05:49 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Colours aside, Furbs is spot on with his earlier point that the patchwork field layout looks plane wrong (and hideously apalling). IMHO, if the layout of fields (and thus colour) was more evenly spread like in the photos posted above, the terrain would look better (although it would still be wrong.)

Soaringbird, I will say that whilst I agree with your comments regarding monitor callibration, the colours in CloD are seriously wrong. I have lived in England all my life, and I know that RD and Furbs have too. Trust us; we know!

@Furbs: awesome shot of England you edited into your post above mate. It's interesting to see how the tree-trunks are barely visible(if at all) and also how the merge seemlessly with the hedges. If only CloD could model this...


"Our name is Hornet Squadron, no bloody good are we.
We cannot shoot, we can not fight, nor march like infantry.
But when it comes to pay parade, we shout with all our might:
Per Ardua ad Astra, Up yours Jack we're alright!"

Flt Lt Kellaway
#3353896 - 07/28/11 07:01 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
So ALL our monitors are just badly calibrated for a tiny number of colors?....oh feck it....yep im out of here, im done soaringbird, you have beat me down. im toast.

Good luck all.


There was a case in 1997 where someone changed their mind on an internet forum - I remember reading about it in the news, it caused quite the sensation at the time.

smile Sorry to laugh furbs.

soaringbird, while I admire your knowledge of colors, palettes and wideness of gamuts, I think that CloD would be better off just doing what other games do - aim for as a true(-ish) a representation without requiring local color profiles to be accurate.

#3353913 - 07/28/11 07:19 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: FearlessFrog]  
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Originally Posted By: FearlessFrog
There was a case in 1997 where someone changed their mind on an internet forum - I remember reading about it in the news, it caused quite the sensation at the time.


I read about that on the internet. But I refused to believe it.


Beyond gliding distance
#3353924 - 07/28/11 07:32 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Frog clapping ....I just dont know what else to say to soaringbird so il just do this... partything

Last edited by BKHZ_Furbs; 07/28/11 07:34 PM.
#3353932 - 07/28/11 07:42 PM Re: UK players of CoD, how does the scenery "feel?" [Re: letterboy1]  
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Soaringbird....I used to work every day for several years with all the professional kit that has been mentioned in this thread, outputting full colour at high dpi to professional print bureas and seeing my work published both within Windows and in 4 colour print (also outputting on Mac). So I know about wide-gamut, CMYK, Pantones and Eizos and true blacks/whites and 128 greyscales and full colour circles and the rest coming out the wazoo. I have also lived in England my entire life, flown above it, and grown up in the Northern countryside, and the southern countryside. I have an artist for a mother, and was brought up on fine art. Though computer work I also know a bit about luminescence (and lumens calcs), sub-surface scattering, and how graphics are rendered both back and front end, and the various types of mapping and mip-mapping (as was...this is going back 10 years). Then there's lighting (tungsten for example, colour temps etc etc)....just so you know you're not entirely alone in this department. But much real colour theory has stayed the same (for at least as long as computers have been around).

In short, there are a few people here who know what they're talking about, and not frightened off or inmpressed by terms like wide-gamut (which doesn't axctually mean a whole heap by itself. And it can mean different things with regards to different hardware manufacturers).

(BTW, do you know about colour cicles, and opposites, and matching, and adjacents?)

CLods landscape graphics are appalling kitsch, with many, many elementary errors - INCLUDING the much-maligned colour palette. That is irrespective of monitor. Even a very bad monitor will show relative colour values within even a limited palette.

And forget gamma and contrast and saturation...what about hue?

The truth is CLod's landscape graphics are very, very weak. Especially by today's standards. Trees lighter than the landscape? Very basic and very silly.

I have no problem with people liking the landscape graphics. But I have a problem if they say they look in any way like Southern England. They dont, not in the least little bit. Which is a problem in a game that purports to repsent the BoB.

Why the devs haven't posted in detail on correcting this (to my knowledge) I dont know. If the sound engine is being re-written, hey, what about the landscape renderer/rasteriser?

Ben

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