Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
#3348866 - 07/23/11 02:50 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
IV/JG7trumps Offline
Member
IV/JG7trumps  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
Perth australia
With an attitude like yours it is a wonder people would waste their time on you, let alone spoon feed you!
The possibilities are great with this new FMB, when done properly missions should play out as intended instead of having flights wander off chasing the first thing hey see instead of following their objectives! Great work Bliss, bisher, and all.

Thanks
Craig


The problem with the World is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3348875 - 07/23/11 03:07 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,737
FearlessFrog Offline
Senior Member
FearlessFrog  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,737
There's some good stuff in here gents, so let's save the thread; kumbaya and all that...

#3348938 - 07/23/11 05:05 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
IV/JG7trumps Offline
Member
IV/JG7trumps  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
Perth australia
My apologies frog wink


The problem with the World is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
#3348941 - 07/23/11 05:17 AM Re: AI [Re: IV/JG7trumps]  
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 811
commorange Offline
Member
commorange  Offline
Member

Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 811
Troy, OH

It seems to me when you think if the A.I. in the context of the type of experience those pilots had back then,

maybe it isnt too bad. It is well to remember most of the pilots were very young and many of them did not have

a lot of hours in fighter aircraft, and even less hours in combat. For right now I am keeping an open mind

as far as A.I. goes.


my system: Intel Core I7 920 @ 3570ghz
Asus P6T MB
6 GB OCZ DDR3 RAM , dram freq 680 mhz, NB freq 2720 mhz
Radeon HD 4870 w/ 1 Gb vram
OS.. Windows 7 professional 64 bit
WD 2 TB hard disk drive etc.

#3348972 - 07/23/11 06:52 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,668
HeinKill Offline
Senior Member
HeinKill  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,668
Cloud based
Originally Posted By: Brealistic
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
That is what was saying Snapper in another thread.(not going there, playing nice). but all this DID change after the last patch. I just hope they can get it sorted, though maybe we are asking to much from AI in general, does anyone know a sim where the AI is very good?



BoB 2 Wings of Victory is pretty darn good if you can accept that the graphics aren't word beating.

HeinKill can tell you about it.


Happy to help, tho I'm not objective as I am a member of the BOB2 Developers Group. Our AI guru is Buddye, who has written code for the AI which gives the single player the feeling they are playing against a human - which is quite a feat. Here is his explanation of how he has done it. Scroll through his post below and you will see why BOB2 AI is the best in the business...in our humble opinions. I have highlighted in bold my own observations on his work.


The design of the AI Maneuver Selection

The design of the AI maneuver Selection Criteria was driven by the need to become more deterministic and less random in selecting AI maneuvers. I felt the need to move in this direction to improve the AI offence and defense so the AI selection software had more control...

Here is a summary of how the AI selects from the (more than 80) available manouvres:

1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (nose to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back) This is what makes the AI really 'smart' - it is constantly testing to see if it is 'offensive' or 'defensive' and chooses its response dynamically as the fight progresses.

To implement the new selection criteria I built a 3 X 6 matrix (a truth table) and many new programs. For each A/C (the unfriendly and the AI or the player), I designed programs to look at Altitude, Speed, and position and to first try and select the best maneuver option (aggressive or defense) based on AI skill level.

Altitude and speed can also be thought of as energy as altitude can be turned into speed.

I also gave the Terminator AI a bit of boost in performance and tune-up so you might want to try it out. With the boost in Terminator performance, he was getting cocky so I implemented a spinout feature. The Terminator flies so close to the edge now that he has a tendency to spinout. This is when you can get him. (BOB2 has a 'Terminator' skill setting, which guarantees the AI will fly offensively/aggressively against the player in all situations. It isn't superhuman, it still makes mistakes and follows the laws of physics, but it will, in every way, be out to kill you!)

I also implemented a new AI feature called Flying Factor (FF). This is the knowledge of the AI pilot to fly a given maneuver (experience) and how well the AI pilot will actually fly the given maneuver (skill). The FF is based on the Skill Level (customer selected in Instant Action Missions and software assigned in the Campaign). The Terminator is assigned a Skill Level of Hero2 (the highest in the game) so that is where he gets his boost in performance (edge). BOB2 has since 2009 had up to 4 mixed skills within a flight Novice, Veteran, Ace or Hero. So you might get lucky and bag a novice with limited abilities, to then be up against an ace who has the full range of AI talents available to it.

AI Maneuver Selection is the KEY

First, the BOBII AI has a special case for selection called Evasive maneuver selection. The Evasive maneuver is required when an AI is shot at (either a hit or near miss). The AI will select a defensive maneuver randomly based on the criteria/data for both Player and enemy AI (speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other). Of course, the AI will evade the players quicker, if and only if, the AI can see the enemy (remember in BOBII, the AI vision is blocked just like the player's vision is blocked by the cockpit, wings, sun, and distance).

The first key decision to be made is to select either an aggressive or defensive maneuver. This is a complex decision based on the available information on both the Player and the Enemy AI or the friendly AI and the enemy AI. The data considered for both Player and enemy is speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other.

After selecting either an aggressive or defensive, then a random approach is used to select a category (choose good, choose bad, or choose neither good nor bad maneuver). This also makes the AI very human, the chance that it will choose a 'bad' maneouvre in the circumstances.

Maneuvers are then divided into three parts Vertical, Horizontal, and dive for each of our categories (choose good, choose bad, and choose neither good nor bad maneuver).

The individual maneuver selection is then based on speed, altitude, and position of both the player and the enemy AI.

In BOBII we have over 80 complex maneuvers for selection (both the aggressive and defensive maneuvers) for the fighters (Spit,Hurri,109.110) and over 50 maneuvers for selection for the JU87 and Defiant. The following are BOBIIs complex maneuvers: (My comments in bold on some of the less obvious labels)

MANOEUVRE_SELECT
MANOEUVRE_LOOKROUND
MANOEUVRE_WELDEDWINGMAN
MANOEUVRE_BAILOUT
MANOEUVRE_TOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_FORCETOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_LINEABREAST
MANOEUVRE_PINCER
MANOEUVRE_MULTIWAVE
MANOEUVRE_DIVEANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_LAGPURSUIT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITMANOEUVRE
MANOEUVRE_HEADON
MANOEUVRE_LINEASTERN
MANOEUVRE_VICATTACK
MANOEUVRE_BARRELROLLATTACK
MANOEUVRE_SCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_MILDSCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_TURNINGFIGHT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITS
MANOEUVRE_ZOOMANDDROP
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTANDLEVEL
MANOEUVRE_SPINOUT
MANOEUVRE_DIVEFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_GOHOME
MANOEUVRE_MAKEFORFRIENDLY
MANOEUVRE_MOVEAWAY
MANOEUVRE_QUICKROLL
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANNTURN
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANN
MANOEUVRE_STAYWITHPREY (forces AI to ignore eg fighters and concentrate on bombers)
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTDIVE (for LW, this is a bunt, for the RAF Merlin engine fighters, they will roll to invert, then dive)
MANOEUVRE_OUTSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOFRIGHTEN (eg if AI detects a comrade under attack within range)
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOOEARLY
MANOEUVRE_GAINHEIGHT
MANOEUVRE_LAGROLL
MANOEUVRE_EXTENSION
MANOEUVRE_DIVINGROLL
MANOEUVRE_REVERSETURN
MANOEUVRE_SELFASBAIT (or 'drag and bag' in other parlance - one AI will fly steady and slow, luring the player, while its wingman stalks)
MANOEUVRE_JINK
MANOEUVRE_BREAKTURN
MANOEUVRE_LAZYTURN
MANOEUVRE_BREAKLOW
MANOEUVRE_BREAKHIGH
MANOEUVRE_BREAK90
MANOEUVRE_BREAK180
MANOEUVRE_HIGBARRELROLL
MANOEUVRE_PANICTURN
MANOEUVRE_TURNANDRUN
MANOEUVRE_LOWALT
MANOEUVRE_ZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTHIGH
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTLOW
MANOEUVRE_GAINSPEED
MANOEUVRE_HEADONATTACK
MANOEUVRE_LUFBERRY (a special manoeuver for the Bf110s)
MANOEUVRE_STEEPDIVE
MANOEUVRE_UPANDUNDER
MANOEUVRE_STALLTURN
MANOEUVRE_SLASHINGATTACK
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBTURN
MANOEUVRE_ROLL360
MANOEUVRE_STRAFFE
MANOEUVRE_TRANSITION
MANOEUVRE_PEELOFF
MANOEUVRE_SNAPSHOT
MANOEUVRE_STAYONTAIL
MANOEUVRE_FLYTHROUGHCLOUD (a defensive manouver available if clouds are present - the AI dives for the nearest cloud)
MANOEUVRE_REGROUP
MANOEUVRE_DISENGAGED
MANOEUVRE_SPINRECOVERY
MANOEUVRE_COLLIDE
MANOEUVRE_LAST
MANOEUVRE_ALIGNMENT
MANOEUVRE_DROPANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_COLLISIONAVOIDANCE
MANOEUVRE_TURNTOHDGANDPITCH (turn to heading, a waypoint command)
MANOEUVRE_SCREWYOUGUYSIMGOINGHOME (when damaged, out of fuel, or low on morale - unlike in CoD, the AI will still evade if attacked when running for home).

The AI Performance Criteria/Dependencies

Skill Level

The AI performance is dependent on AI Skill Level (which is customer selected in Instant Action and SW assigned in the campaign). BOBII AI do make mistakes (spin, crash, dumb maneuvers, bad judgment, shoot late , shoot bad, etc) which is after all very human.

The skill level of the AI is key in making decisions on about everything with respect to AI performance like (1) how well the AI fly, shoot, shoot fast, slow, accuracy, or not shoot, (2) how well the AI fly, what maneuvers are selected, and how well the AI will fly the chosen maneuver.

Random Numbers (Luck of the draw)

The BOBII AI A/C is also dependent on luck (specifically on random numbers). Random number decisions are coded through out the AI code. BOBIIs random approach keeps BOBII from doing the same thing each time. Even something as simple as the direction to start a maneuver (left or right), I will use a random number to decide (why hard code something when you can use a random number).


For example, most BOBII vertical maneuvers use a random number to assign a length of time to for a specific vertical maneuver (Like Zoom). The AI pilot will sometimes cut off early, or late, or somewhere in the middle. If early, the maneuver may carry too much speed, and if late, the AI may slow down so much that control is lost (very human).

The bottom line is that the customer will always see a somewhat different maneuver (very good, good, not so good, and loss of control) both because of the random implementation and the different physics parameters (speed, roll, heading, pitch, and overall energy) going into each maneuver.

The very real downside of random numbers is it is very hard to test (not repeatable) and the processing power used.

Conditions

The conditions for each maneuver are always different (energy, speed, altitude, skill, damage, and enemy position). This also changes how the maneuver is performed. A damaged AI will not fly as well as an undamaged AI (damage is always taken into account in the AI flying performance).


[Linked Image]
#3348999 - 07/23/11 09:52 AM Re: AI [Re: HeinKill]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,169
WernerVoss Offline
Member
WernerVoss  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,169
Originally Posted By: HeinKill
Originally Posted By: Brealistic
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
That is what was saying Snapper in another thread.(not going there, playing nice). but all this DID change after the last patch. I just hope they can get it sorted, though maybe we are asking to much from AI in general, does anyone know a sim where the AI is very good?



BoB 2 Wings of Victory is pretty darn good if you can accept that the graphics aren't word beating.

HeinKill can tell you about it.


Happy to help, tho I'm not objective as I am a member of the BOB2 Developers Group. Our AI guru is Buddye, who has written code for the AI which gives the single player the feeling they are playing against a human - which is quite a feat. Here is his explanation of how he has done it. Scroll through his post below and you will see why BOB2 AI is the best in the business...in our humble opinions. I have highlighted in bold my own observations on his work.


The design of the AI Maneuver Selection

The design of the AI maneuver Selection Criteria was driven by the need to become more deterministic and less random in selecting AI maneuvers. I felt the need to move in this direction to improve the AI offence and defense so the AI selection software had more control...

Here is a summary of how the AI selects from the (more than 80) available manouvres:

1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (nose to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back) This is what makes the AI really 'smart' - it is constantly testing to see if it is 'offensive' or 'defensive' and chooses its response dynamically as the fight progresses.

To implement the new selection criteria I built a 3 X 6 matrix (a truth table) and many new programs. For each A/C (the unfriendly and the AI or the player), I designed programs to look at Altitude, Speed, and position and to first try and select the best maneuver option (aggressive or defense) based on AI skill level.

Altitude and speed can also be thought of as energy as altitude can be turned into speed.

I also gave the Terminator AI a bit of boost in performance and tune-up so you might want to try it out. With the boost in Terminator performance, he was getting cocky so I implemented a spinout feature. The Terminator flies so close to the edge now that he has a tendency to spinout. This is when you can get him. (BOB2 has a 'Terminator' skill setting, which guarantees the AI will fly offensively/aggressively against the player in all situations. It isn't superhuman, it still makes mistakes and follows the laws of physics, but it will, in every way, be out to kill you!)

I also implemented a new AI feature called Flying Factor (FF). This is the knowledge of the AI pilot to fly a given maneuver (experience) and how well the AI pilot will actually fly the given maneuver (skill). The FF is based on the Skill Level (customer selected in Instant Action Missions and software assigned in the Campaign). The Terminator is assigned a Skill Level of Hero2 (the highest in the game) so that is where he gets his boost in performance (edge). BOB2 has since 2009 had up to 4 mixed skills within a flight Novice, Veteran, Ace or Hero. So you might get lucky and bag a novice with limited abilities, to then be up against an ace who has the full range of AI talents available to it.

AI Maneuver Selection is the KEY

First, the BOBII AI has a special case for selection called Evasive maneuver selection. The Evasive maneuver is required when an AI is shot at (either a hit or near miss). The AI will select a defensive maneuver randomly based on the criteria/data for both Player and enemy AI (speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other). Of course, the AI will evade the players quicker, if and only if, the AI can see the enemy (remember in BOBII, the AI vision is blocked just like the player's vision is blocked by the cockpit, wings, sun, and distance).

The first key decision to be made is to select either an aggressive or defensive maneuver. This is a complex decision based on the available information on both the Player and the Enemy AI or the friendly AI and the enemy AI. The data considered for both Player and enemy is speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other.

After selecting either an aggressive or defensive, then a random approach is used to select a category (choose good, choose bad, or choose neither good nor bad maneuver). This also makes the AI very human, the chance that it will choose a 'bad' maneouvre in the circumstances.

Maneuvers are then divided into three parts Vertical, Horizontal, and dive for each of our categories (choose good, choose bad, and choose neither good nor bad maneuver).

The individual maneuver selection is then based on speed, altitude, and position of both the player and the enemy AI.

In BOBII we have over 80 complex maneuvers for selection (both the aggressive and defensive maneuvers) for the fighters (Spit,Hurri,109.110) and over 50 maneuvers for selection for the JU87 and Defiant. The following are BOBIIs complex maneuvers: (My comments in bold on some of the less obvious labels)

MANOEUVRE_SELECT
MANOEUVRE_LOOKROUND
MANOEUVRE_WELDEDWINGMAN
MANOEUVRE_BAILOUT
MANOEUVRE_TOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_FORCETOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_LINEABREAST
MANOEUVRE_PINCER
MANOEUVRE_MULTIWAVE
MANOEUVRE_DIVEANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_LAGPURSUIT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITMANOEUVRE
MANOEUVRE_HEADON
MANOEUVRE_LINEASTERN
MANOEUVRE_VICATTACK
MANOEUVRE_BARRELROLLATTACK
MANOEUVRE_SCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_MILDSCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_TURNINGFIGHT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITS
MANOEUVRE_ZOOMANDDROP
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTANDLEVEL
MANOEUVRE_SPINOUT
MANOEUVRE_DIVEFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_GOHOME
MANOEUVRE_MAKEFORFRIENDLY
MANOEUVRE_MOVEAWAY
MANOEUVRE_QUICKROLL
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANNTURN
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANN
MANOEUVRE_STAYWITHPREY (forces AI to ignore eg fighters and concentrate on bombers)
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTDIVE (for LW, this is a bunt, for the RAF Merlin engine fighters, they will roll to invert, then dive)
MANOEUVRE_OUTSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOFRIGHTEN (eg if AI detects a comrade under attack within range)
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOOEARLY
MANOEUVRE_GAINHEIGHT
MANOEUVRE_LAGROLL
MANOEUVRE_EXTENSION
MANOEUVRE_DIVINGROLL
MANOEUVRE_REVERSETURN
MANOEUVRE_SELFASBAIT (or 'drag and bag' in other parlance - one AI will fly steady and slow, luring the player, while its wingman stalks)
MANOEUVRE_JINK
MANOEUVRE_BREAKTURN
MANOEUVRE_LAZYTURN
MANOEUVRE_BREAKLOW
MANOEUVRE_BREAKHIGH
MANOEUVRE_BREAK90
MANOEUVRE_BREAK180
MANOEUVRE_HIGBARRELROLL
MANOEUVRE_PANICTURN
MANOEUVRE_TURNANDRUN
MANOEUVRE_LOWALT
MANOEUVRE_ZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTHIGH
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTLOW
MANOEUVRE_GAINSPEED
MANOEUVRE_HEADONATTACK
MANOEUVRE_LUFBERRY (a special manoeuver for the Bf110s)
MANOEUVRE_STEEPDIVE
MANOEUVRE_UPANDUNDER
MANOEUVRE_STALLTURN
MANOEUVRE_SLASHINGATTACK
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBTURN
MANOEUVRE_ROLL360
MANOEUVRE_STRAFFE
MANOEUVRE_TRANSITION
MANOEUVRE_PEELOFF
MANOEUVRE_SNAPSHOT
MANOEUVRE_STAYONTAIL
MANOEUVRE_FLYTHROUGHCLOUD (a defensive manouver available if clouds are present - the AI dives for the nearest cloud)
MANOEUVRE_REGROUP
MANOEUVRE_DISENGAGED
MANOEUVRE_SPINRECOVERY
MANOEUVRE_COLLIDE
MANOEUVRE_LAST
MANOEUVRE_ALIGNMENT
MANOEUVRE_DROPANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_COLLISIONAVOIDANCE
MANOEUVRE_TURNTOHDGANDPITCH (turn to heading, a waypoint command)
MANOEUVRE_SCREWYOUGUYSIMGOINGHOME (when damaged, out of fuel, or low on morale - unlike in CoD, the AI will still evade if attacked when running for home).

The AI Performance Criteria/Dependencies

Skill Level

The AI performance is dependent on AI Skill Level (which is customer selected in Instant Action and SW assigned in the campaign). BOBII AI do make mistakes (spin, crash, dumb maneuvers, bad judgment, shoot late , shoot bad, etc) which is after all very human.

The skill level of the AI is key in making decisions on about everything with respect to AI performance like (1) how well the AI fly, shoot, shoot fast, slow, accuracy, or not shoot, (2) how well the AI fly, what maneuvers are selected, and how well the AI will fly the chosen maneuver.

Random Numbers (Luck of the draw)

The BOBII AI A/C is also dependent on luck (specifically on random numbers). Random number decisions are coded through out the AI code. BOBIIs random approach keeps BOBII from doing the same thing each time. Even something as simple as the direction to start a maneuver (left or right), I will use a random number to decide (why hard code something when you can use a random number).


For example, most BOBII vertical maneuvers use a random number to assign a length of time to for a specific vertical maneuver (Like Zoom). The AI pilot will sometimes cut off early, or late, or somewhere in the middle. If early, the maneuver may carry too much speed, and if late, the AI may slow down so much that control is lost (very human).

The bottom line is that the customer will always see a somewhat different maneuver (very good, good, not so good, and loss of control) both because of the random implementation and the different physics parameters (speed, roll, heading, pitch, and overall energy) going into each maneuver.

The very real downside of random numbers is it is very hard to test (not repeatable) and the processing power used.

Conditions

The conditions for each maneuver are always different (energy, speed, altitude, skill, damage, and enemy position). This also changes how the maneuver is performed. A damaged AI will not fly as well as an undamaged AI (damage is always taken into account in the AI flying performance).


They need to hire this chap for CoD!


Asus P8P67 Pro Mobo
2500K CPU @ 4.5Ghz
Antec H2O Kuhler 950 Water Cooler
16Gb DDR3 DC RAM @ 1600mhz
EVGA GTX780 Classified GPU
Dell U3014 30" Monitor
xFi Titanium HD sound
Corsair Force 250Gb SSD
Corsair RM850w PSU
W7-64
INTJ
#3349029 - 07/23/11 11:43 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,089
Tree Offline
Member
Tree  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,089
Derby, England
Hi Bliss, is it possible to turn the option off on servers where you can jump plane, for example i had a fight against a 109 the other night who was clearly a human pilot (most identifiable by his custom skin) having shot him up real bad I rolled over on him and finished him off, the server announced that I had killed an AI 109, obviously the guy just switched planes when he knew it was all over, can this be diabled server side?

Last edited by Tree; 07/23/11 11:44 AM.
#3349032 - 07/23/11 11:49 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
IV/JG7trumps Offline
Member
IV/JG7trumps  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 839
Perth australia
What servers are you playing on Tree? Haven't seen any of the FR type servers where players can jump between planes!


The problem with the World is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
#3349033 - 07/23/11 11:52 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,089
Tree Offline
Member
Tree  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,089
Derby, England
This was on the SYN server, Im sure if you press escape in mid flight you can create another plane leaving your other aircraft just sort of hanging there.

#3349058 - 07/23/11 01:19 PM Re: AI [Re: HeinKill]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
Tell Offline
Member
Tell  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
Thanks for the input. I did a reinstall and update of BoB/WOV after becoming disappointed with COD AI. While there are some graphics bugs in certain coastal scenarios on my rig 1v1's are a snap to create and the weather options are nice for adding variety to the match ups.

#3349260 - 07/23/11 06:42 PM Re: AI [Re: HeinKill]  
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Brealistic Offline
Member
Brealistic  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Originally Posted By: HeinKill
Originally Posted By: Brealistic
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
That is what was saying Snapper in another thread.(not going there, playing nice). but all this DID change after the last patch. I just hope they can get it sorted, though maybe we are asking to much from AI in general, does anyone know a sim where the AI is very good?



BoB 2 Wings of Victory is pretty darn good if you can accept that the graphics aren't word beating.

HeinKill can tell you about it.


Happy to help, tho I'm not objective as I am a member of the BOB2 Developers Group. Our AI guru is Buddye, who has written code for the AI which gives the single player the feeling they are playing against a human - which is quite a feat. Here is his explanation of how he has done it. Scroll through his post below and you will see why BOB2 AI is the best in the business...in our humble opinions. I have highlighted in bold my own observations on his work.


The design of the AI Maneuver Selection

The design of the AI maneuver Selection Criteria was driven by the need to become more deterministic and less random in selecting AI maneuvers. I felt the need to move in this direction to improve the AI offence and defense so the AI selection software had more control...

Here is a summary of how the AI selects from the (more than 80) available manouvres:

1. Altitude (how much altitude and rate of change)
2. Speed (how much speed, and rate of change)
3. Position of A/C to each other (nose to tail, tail to tail, nose to beam, tail to beam or left, right, front, back) This is what makes the AI really 'smart' - it is constantly testing to see if it is 'offensive' or 'defensive' and chooses its response dynamically as the fight progresses.

To implement the new selection criteria I built a 3 X 6 matrix (a truth table) and many new programs. For each A/C (the unfriendly and the AI or the player), I designed programs to look at Altitude, Speed, and position and to first try and select the best maneuver option (aggressive or defense) based on AI skill level.

Altitude and speed can also be thought of as energy as altitude can be turned into speed.

I also gave the Terminator AI a bit of boost in performance and tune-up so you might want to try it out. With the boost in Terminator performance, he was getting cocky so I implemented a spinout feature. The Terminator flies so close to the edge now that he has a tendency to spinout. This is when you can get him. (BOB2 has a 'Terminator' skill setting, which guarantees the AI will fly offensively/aggressively against the player in all situations. It isn't superhuman, it still makes mistakes and follows the laws of physics, but it will, in every way, be out to kill you!)

I also implemented a new AI feature called Flying Factor (FF). This is the knowledge of the AI pilot to fly a given maneuver (experience) and how well the AI pilot will actually fly the given maneuver (skill). The FF is based on the Skill Level (customer selected in Instant Action Missions and software assigned in the Campaign). The Terminator is assigned a Skill Level of Hero2 (the highest in the game) so that is where he gets his boost in performance (edge). BOB2 has since 2009 had up to 4 mixed skills within a flight Novice, Veteran, Ace or Hero. So you might get lucky and bag a novice with limited abilities, to then be up against an ace who has the full range of AI talents available to it.

AI Maneuver Selection is the KEY

First, the BOBII AI has a special case for selection called Evasive maneuver selection. The Evasive maneuver is required when an AI is shot at (either a hit or near miss). The AI will select a defensive maneuver randomly based on the criteria/data for both Player and enemy AI (speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other). Of course, the AI will evade the players quicker, if and only if, the AI can see the enemy (remember in BOBII, the AI vision is blocked just like the player's vision is blocked by the cockpit, wings, sun, and distance).

The first key decision to be made is to select either an aggressive or defensive maneuver. This is a complex decision based on the available information on both the Player and the Enemy AI or the friendly AI and the enemy AI. The data considered for both Player and enemy is speed, altitude, and the position of the targeting AI and the AI being targeted with respect to each other.

After selecting either an aggressive or defensive, then a random approach is used to select a category (choose good, choose bad, or choose neither good nor bad maneuver). This also makes the AI very human, the chance that it will choose a 'bad' maneouvre in the circumstances.

Maneuvers are then divided into three parts Vertical, Horizontal, and dive for each of our categories (choose good, choose bad, and choose neither good nor bad maneuver).

The individual maneuver selection is then based on speed, altitude, and position of both the player and the enemy AI.

In BOBII we have over 80 complex maneuvers for selection (both the aggressive and defensive maneuvers) for the fighters (Spit,Hurri,109.110) and over 50 maneuvers for selection for the JU87 and Defiant. The following are BOBIIs complex maneuvers: (My comments in bold on some of the less obvious labels)

MANOEUVRE_SELECT
MANOEUVRE_LOOKROUND
MANOEUVRE_WELDEDWINGMAN
MANOEUVRE_BAILOUT
MANOEUVRE_TOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_FORCETOPCOVER
MANOEUVRE_LINEABREAST
MANOEUVRE_PINCER
MANOEUVRE_MULTIWAVE
MANOEUVRE_DIVEANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_LAGPURSUIT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITMANOEUVRE
MANOEUVRE_HEADON
MANOEUVRE_LINEASTERN
MANOEUVRE_VICATTACK
MANOEUVRE_BARRELROLLATTACK
MANOEUVRE_SCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_MILDSCISSORS
MANOEUVRE_TURNINGFIGHT
MANOEUVRE_SPLITS
MANOEUVRE_ZOOMANDDROP
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTANDLEVEL
MANOEUVRE_SPINOUT
MANOEUVRE_DIVEFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_GOHOME
MANOEUVRE_MAKEFORFRIENDLY
MANOEUVRE_MOVEAWAY
MANOEUVRE_QUICKROLL
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANNTURN
MANOEUVRE_IMMELMANN
MANOEUVRE_STAYWITHPREY (forces AI to ignore eg fighters and concentrate on bombers)
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBFORHOME
MANOEUVRE_STRAIGHTDIVE (for LW, this is a bunt, for the RAF Merlin engine fighters, they will roll to invert, then dive)
MANOEUVRE_OUTSIDELOOP
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOFRIGHTEN (eg if AI detects a comrade under attack within range)
MANOEUVRE_SHOOTTOOEARLY
MANOEUVRE_GAINHEIGHT
MANOEUVRE_LAGROLL
MANOEUVRE_EXTENSION
MANOEUVRE_DIVINGROLL
MANOEUVRE_REVERSETURN
MANOEUVRE_SELFASBAIT (or 'drag and bag' in other parlance - one AI will fly steady and slow, luring the player, while its wingman stalks)
MANOEUVRE_JINK
MANOEUVRE_BREAKTURN
MANOEUVRE_LAZYTURN
MANOEUVRE_BREAKLOW
MANOEUVRE_BREAKHIGH
MANOEUVRE_BREAK90
MANOEUVRE_BREAK180
MANOEUVRE_HIGBARRELROLL
MANOEUVRE_PANICTURN
MANOEUVRE_TURNANDRUN
MANOEUVRE_LOWALT
MANOEUVRE_ZOOM
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTHIGH
MANOEUVRE_INTERCEPTLOW
MANOEUVRE_GAINSPEED
MANOEUVRE_HEADONATTACK
MANOEUVRE_LUFBERRY (a special manoeuver for the Bf110s)
MANOEUVRE_STEEPDIVE
MANOEUVRE_UPANDUNDER
MANOEUVRE_STALLTURN
MANOEUVRE_SLASHINGATTACK
MANOEUVRE_CLIMBTURN
MANOEUVRE_ROLL360
MANOEUVRE_STRAFFE
MANOEUVRE_TRANSITION
MANOEUVRE_PEELOFF
MANOEUVRE_SNAPSHOT
MANOEUVRE_STAYONTAIL
MANOEUVRE_FLYTHROUGHCLOUD (a defensive manouver available if clouds are present - the AI dives for the nearest cloud)
MANOEUVRE_REGROUP
MANOEUVRE_DISENGAGED
MANOEUVRE_SPINRECOVERY
MANOEUVRE_COLLIDE
MANOEUVRE_LAST
MANOEUVRE_ALIGNMENT
MANOEUVRE_DROPANDZOOM
MANOEUVRE_COLLISIONAVOIDANCE
MANOEUVRE_TURNTOHDGANDPITCH (turn to heading, a waypoint command)
MANOEUVRE_SCREWYOUGUYSIMGOINGHOME (when damaged, out of fuel, or low on morale - unlike in CoD, the AI will still evade if attacked when running for home).

The AI Performance Criteria/Dependencies

Skill Level

The AI performance is dependent on AI Skill Level (which is customer selected in Instant Action and SW assigned in the campaign). BOBII AI do make mistakes (spin, crash, dumb maneuvers, bad judgment, shoot late , shoot bad, etc) which is after all very human.

The skill level of the AI is key in making decisions on about everything with respect to AI performance like (1) how well the AI fly, shoot, shoot fast, slow, accuracy, or not shoot, (2) how well the AI fly, what maneuvers are selected, and how well the AI will fly the chosen maneuver.

Random Numbers (Luck of the draw)

The BOBII AI A/C is also dependent on luck (specifically on random numbers). Random number decisions are coded through out the AI code. BOBIIs random approach keeps BOBII from doing the same thing each time. Even something as simple as the direction to start a maneuver (left or right), I will use a random number to decide (why hard code something when you can use a random number).


For example, most BOBII vertical maneuvers use a random number to assign a length of time to for a specific vertical maneuver (Like Zoom). The AI pilot will sometimes cut off early, or late, or somewhere in the middle. If early, the maneuver may carry too much speed, and if late, the AI may slow down so much that control is lost (very human).

The bottom line is that the customer will always see a somewhat different maneuver (very good, good, not so good, and loss of control) both because of the random implementation and the different physics parameters (speed, roll, heading, pitch, and overall energy) going into each maneuver.

The very real downside of random numbers is it is very hard to test (not repeatable) and the processing power used.

Conditions

The conditions for each maneuver are always different (energy, speed, altitude, skill, damage, and enemy position). This also changes how the maneuver is performed. A damaged AI will not fly as well as an undamaged AI (damage is always taken into account in the AI flying performance).


Thanks a bunch Heinkill for posting this. thumbsup

#3349281 - 07/23/11 07:08 PM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,737
FearlessFrog Offline
Senior Member
FearlessFrog  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,737
Moved some moderation talk to here:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3349076/OT_Moved_To_Site_Feedback_AI.html

Note: I'm trying to keep this thread on topic, so if you want to chat with the moderators (or other members) then the 'Send Private Message' stuff is best.

#3349297 - 07/23/11 07:33 PM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,818
BKHZ_Furbs Offline
Senior Member
BKHZ_Furbs  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,818
Working hard Frog? smile

#3349322 - 07/23/11 08:04 PM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
Tell Offline
Member
Tell  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
I modified a QM in FMB as follows: I substituted G50 for Spitfire and 110. I deleted all except player and one enemy G50 at "ace". I had only one waypoint and set it at "engage fighters" for the enemy G50. At close range the enemy G50 still refused to engage. It flew away doing slow rolls for evasion. Since this should be the simplest setup for a dogfight the question is why an "ace" AI cannot react aggressively to a favorable combat situation. If what we've read about BoB/WOV AI programming is accurate shouldn't COD AI be able to demonstrate similar situational awareness? Someone well versed in FMB scripting should be easily able to create said scenario (over water) and post it to the "Missions" sticky so that others can see how getting the AI to fight is done and be able to substitute other match ups as desired. biggrin

#3349481 - 07/23/11 11:14 PM Re: AI [Re: Tell]  
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Brealistic Offline
Member
Brealistic  Offline
Member

Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Originally Posted By: Tell
I modified a QM in FMB as follows: I substituted G50 for Spitfire and 110. I deleted all except player and one enemy G50 at "ace". I had only one waypoint and set it at "engage fighters" for the enemy G50. At close range the enemy G50 still refused to engage. It flew away doing slow rolls for evasion. Since this should be the simplest setup for a dogfight the question is why an "ace" AI cannot react aggressively to a favorable combat situation. If what we've read about BoB/WOV AI programming is accurate shouldn't COD AI be able to demonstrate similar situational awareness? Someone well versed in FMB scripting should be easily able to create said scenario (over water) and post it to the "Missions" sticky so that others can see how getting the AI to fight is done and be able to substitute other match ups as desired. biggrin


well it certainly would if Buddye was doing the ai I can tell you that. BOBWOV ai was only fair till he worked his magic on it. thumbsup

#3350087 - 07/24/11 08:56 PM Re: AI [Re: Tell]  
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,668
HeinKill Offline
Senior Member
HeinKill  Offline
Senior Member

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,668
Cloud based
Originally Posted By: Tell
I modified a QM in FMB as follows: I substituted G50 for Spitfire and 110. I deleted all except player and one enemy G50 at "ace". I had only one waypoint and set it at "engage fighters" for the enemy G50. At close range the enemy G50 still refused to engage. It flew away doing slow rolls for evasion. Since this should be the simplest setup for a dogfight the question is why an "ace" AI cannot react aggressively to a favorable combat situation. If what we've read about BoB/WOV AI programming is accurate shouldn't COD AI be able to demonstrate similar situational awareness? Someone well versed in FMB scripting should be easily able to create said scenario (over water) and post it to the "Missions" sticky so that others can see how getting the AI to fight is done and be able to substitute other match ups as desired. biggrin


Here's something weird I noticed modifying the simple dogfight quick mission...

One enemy AI Vs player only = no engage (tried this with player as Heinkel and enemy as Defiant, then as Beaufighter)

Multiple enemy AI vs player plus wingmen AI = engage

Enemy skill level didn't have anything to do with it because you can't set that in quick mission interface.


[Linked Image]
#3350105 - 07/24/11 09:32 PM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,887
bisher Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
bisher  Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,887
Manitoba, Canada
Do you mean modified as in the FMB HK, I've had success AI vs me, just had to select my aircraft as the AI's target. Sorry I read the rest of your post HK and you did a quick mission edit. smile



#3351194 - 07/25/11 11:43 PM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,979
Buddye1 Offline
Member
Buddye1  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,979
South East,Texas,USA
I think that COD should implement a way to change parameters in the mission options. From what I read here you can change skill level and other options in the FMB so it must be already in the code.

In BOBII the player can change certain mission options like home airfield, time of day, weather, player side (RAF/LUF, and skill Level each time he flys or go with the defaults.

Has anyone ask for a mission changable options?

I have no interest in changing the options in the FMB each time I want different parameters.

Last edited by Buddye1; 07/25/11 11:52 PM.

Intel I7 920 processor (2.66GHz, 8MB cache), 6GB DDR3 Triple Channel @1333MHz, 1.8GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295, Sound Blaster X-Fi PCI Sound Card, Windows 7 Home Premium 64 Bit , CH Fighter Stick & Pedals ,TrackIR4 Pro thanks to BobII crew.
#3352277 - 07/27/11 03:25 AM Re: AI [Re: HeinKill]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
Tell Offline
Member
Tell  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 283
I tried your suggestion. I opened a QM, modified it to 2v2, renamed it then imported the renamed QM into the FMB and was then able to modify the AI to "ace" or "custom" as desired. Once completed I confirmed that enemy would fight in 2v2 for about ten minutes. Thereafter they seem to head for home and do evasive maneuvers only. I also confirmed that indeed 1v1 the AI will not engage. Seems bizarre. Also my AI "wingie" seems pretty useless. I used Spitfire IIA's vs 109's. I've not tested with G50 yet. Admittedly except for fiddling with AI settings I am done with COD. I feel for those people chancing upon it at Best Buy or Fry's not knowing what they are in for. biggrin

#3355111 - 07/30/11 07:47 AM Re: AI [Re: Brealistic]  
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 166
FIScott Offline
Member
FIScott  Offline
Member

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 166
I blew the dust of my copy of BoB WoV yesterday, patched it up and spent an hour sorting controls etc. Its easy to forgive any shortcomings due to age as if you spend too much time gazing at the scenery you get your butt handed to you in a hat.

The AI is a unreal. If Luthier and Co just try it they must see where they have gone wrong with CoD ?

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Moderated by  RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
76 years ago today -- D-Day
by Sluggish Controls. 06/06/20 04:13 AM
Very educational F-22 video
by Zamzow. 06/05/20 11:35 PM
Justice for Maddie
by RossUK. 06/04/20 11:11 AM
Perhaps My Final Flight
by FishTaco. 06/04/20 02:59 AM
Blue Angel's will transition to the Rhino
by CyBerkut. 06/02/20 12:41 PM
The pancake chef...
by Mr_Blastman. 05/31/20 06:33 PM
DOSBox/MS-DOS6
by MarkG. 05/31/20 02:14 PM
Question for gun lovers
by Blade_RJ. 05/30/20 02:54 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0