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#3343927 - 07/17/11 06:39 PM Battle of Britain by James Holland  
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ZG26_Emil Offline
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Cheshire....Ok stockport
Anyone else read this book?

I just finished reading it and really enjoyed it. What I liked most was that it tried to cover everything that was happening including naval operations, submarine warfare, political developments etc.

He makes some interesting and convincing arguments. For one he suggests that it wasn't quite the David and Golliath battle that has gained mythical proportions and that the Luftwaffe were actually much less able to withstand drawn out operations that people assumed. At that the RAF weren't really so outmatched.

Anyhoo it whiled away a few days while I was at work biggrin


Formerly JG5_Emil
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#3343978 - 07/17/11 08:06 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Winny Offline
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It's a great book, I dip in and out of it all the time. Thorough, no real bias to it and a good read too. Like you said, it covers all areas of the Battle, from the Atlantic to France and up in the Sky.

Highly recommended for anyone with an interest BoB.

#3343991 - 07/17/11 08:35 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Not read the book but it's already well know that the Germans relied on Blitzkrieg....hit them fast and hard and not long drawn out operations - like Russia. It had succeeded in Europe right up to the point when they hit the French coast and came to a grinding halt.

The Luftwaffe complimented the army and where they hit water they parachuted troops in instead of using boats. But they knew that we were too well defended and needed air superiority first which we refused them. It's where Crete went badly wrong for us. We assumed they would come by boat. We had no air defences and aimed what defences we did have at the coast. So the Germans just parachuted in and defeated us that way.


If they had continued to batter the airfields and radar stations they may have been able to launch airborne troops.
If they had larger bombers they may have been more effective at defeating our ground targets.
If they had concentrated on a larger naval force with a proper fleet of invasion boats supported by airborne troops they may have successfully invaded.
If we had not started to build up our fighter reserves when we did we may have lost the BoB.
If we didn't have radar more German raiders would have reached their targets.
If the Germans had not assumed we would wave the white flag as soon as they reached the French coast they may have been better prepared. etc. etc...

History is full of Ifs and Buts after the event and we were lucky that things turned out as they did because they could easily have been very different.

#3343999 - 07/17/11 08:46 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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I read and enjoyed the Holland book, but in my humble opinion one book stands head and shoulders above all the BoB books i have read (and i have read an awful lot of them) Stephen Bungays 'Most Dangerous Enemy'. A magnificent book, deeply researched, authorative and ultimately extremely moving book.

Regards Mike

#3344003 - 07/17/11 08:49 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: NineLives]  
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IIRC Alan Deere (who wrote your namesake "Nine Lives") also mentioned that Neville Chamberlain was much maligned over his "Peace in our Time" -- he bought Britain another year to produce Hurries and Spits. Even then it was a closely run thing, with Spits only coming off the line in substantial numbers by mid-1940.


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#3344192 - 07/18/11 03:07 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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There were only two spit assemblies correct? Or was it that final assembly of the Merlins only took place at two locations.
Those would have been nice targets (if the German's had better spies) - could've disrupted production for a couple of weeks.

#3344205 - 07/18/11 04:17 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ATAG_Snapper]  
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Cheshire....Ok stockport
Originally Posted By: Snapper
IIRC Alan Deere (who wrote your namesake "Nine Lives") also mentioned that Neville Chamberlain was much maligned over his "Peace in our Time" -- he bought Britain another year to produce Hurries and Spits. Even then it was a closely run thing, with Spits only coming off the line in substantial numbers by mid-1940.


Yep I feel sorry for the guy, he worked him self literally to death by Churchill's side.

I've read so many books on WW2 but I learned something from this book and it corrected some misconceptions like the Luftwaffe knew about Radar but gave up attacking it because they felt it couldn't be put out of action for significant amounts of time. Ventnor was put out of action but they transmitted dummy signals so the Germans thought their raid was unsuccessful.


Formerly JG5_Emil
#3344210 - 07/18/11 04:27 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: Avimimus]  
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Cheshire....Ok stockport
Originally Posted By: Avimimus
There were only two spit assemblies correct? Or was it that final assembly of the Merlins only took place at two locations.
Those would have been nice targets (if the German's had better spies) - could've disrupted production for a couple of weeks.


They were setting up shadow factories to build more Spits as well. The luftwaffe (and everyone else at the time) were pretty unsuccessful regarding bombing specific targets such as factories. Getting bombs on target was virtually impossible back then without massive bomber formations that the luftwaffe simply didn't have. They know about the whereabouts of many factories etc.

One thing the book has left me wanting is....Fairey Battle, flyable Defiant and the Blenheim Fighter biggrin


Formerly JG5_Emil
#3344218 - 07/18/11 04:53 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Just packed that book for my vacation trip! Bought it originally to prepare for clod, but then read some east front stuff for getting interest up in IL2 and russian planes instead. Looking forward to reading it now though.

-C-

#3344231 - 07/18/11 05:27 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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In my recent poking around (hey, they have a bar!) there is some good stuff in the SimHQ library too:

http://www.simhq.com/_library/_library_air2.html

(Note to self: delete reference to bar)

#3344260 - 07/18/11 06:30 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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I enjoyed it, though not as much as i thought...2/3s of the book was about the build up and battle of France which while well written, it was not why i brought the book.
I think "The most dangerous enemy" by Steven Bungay a better book and prob my fave book on the battle, and i have a lot. smile

Last edited by BKHZ_Furbs; 07/18/11 08:40 AM.
#3344296 - 07/18/11 08:29 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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blackmme Offline
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Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
I enjoyed it, though not as much as i thought...2/3s of the book was about the build up and battle of France which was well written it was not why i brought the book.
I think "The most dangerous enemy" by steven Bungay a better book and prob my fave book on the battle, and i have alot. smile


As per my previous post I couldnt agree more, MDE is one of the finest books I have ever read let alone finest history or aviation. The balance between the grand sweep of technology and strategy down to the very personal stories is extraordinary. Several passages in the book moved me to tears.
It's that good.

Regards Mike

#3344329 - 07/18/11 09:52 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: BKHZ_Furbs]  
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ZG26_Emil Offline
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Cheshire....Ok stockport
Originally Posted By: BKHZ_Furbs
I enjoyed it, though not as much as i thought...2/3s of the book was about the build up and battle of France which while well written, it was not why i brought the book.


Interestingly it was what I enjoyed most. I've read many books on the subject and in many ways the pilots tails like Derre et al are great but understandably only show their perspective.

I think the point Holland was making was that the spectacular collapse of the French (and utter failure to manage their army properly) made the Germans over confident and led them to believe the UK was going to be a pushover. They hadn't even put much thought in to having ground controllers or increasing production of fighters and then went on to flip from one strategy to another without trying to see through the main aim of destroying the RAF.

Cheers

p.s I'll get The most dangerous enemy

Last edited by JG5_Emil; 07/18/11 09:53 AM.

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#3344358 - 07/18/11 10:49 AM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Winny Offline
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I like 'Most Dangerous' it's also a good book, my only (slight) issue with it is that Bungay comes through the text a little too much. Still powerful stuff, I just find Bungay himself annoying sometimes.

For anyone interested in just the air battle then Patrick Bishops "Battle of Britain, A day to day chronicle" is a great read too.
It's a chronological day by day account telling who was where when and what the outcome was.

If you can find the hard back version it's allso full of great pictures and tables and period posters.

A must have for anyone interested in BoB.

Last edited by Winny; 07/18/11 10:52 AM.
#3344584 - 07/18/11 03:26 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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I really didn't like the Holland book at all and gave up on it. He is not a historian and it shows. I agree with the others who mentioned Bungay's book and highly recommend it:

The Most Dangerous Enemy: The Definitive History of the Battle of Britain, by Stephen Bungay:
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-Definitive-History/dp/1845134818/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3

Abridged coffee-table version chock-a-block with illustrations (I'm going to get this!):
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-Illustrated-History/dp/0760339368/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1


My Il-2 CoD movie web site: www.flightsimvids.com
#3344588 - 07/18/11 03:28 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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That looks good Frey, and i think im going to start on "MDE" again. haven't read it in a couple of years.

#3344752 - 07/18/11 05:51 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: Freycinet]  
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ZG26_Emil Offline
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Cheshire....Ok stockport
Originally Posted By: Freycinet
I really didn't like the Holland book at all and gave up on it. He is not a historian and it shows. I agree with the others who mentioned Bungay's book and highly recommend it:

The Most Dangerous Enemy: The Definitive History of the Battle of Britain, by Stephen Bungay:
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-Definitive-History/dp/1845134818/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_3

Abridged coffee-table version chock-a-block with illustrations (I'm going to get this!):
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous-Enemy-Illustrated-History/dp/0760339368/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1


I agree about the historian bit (also mentioned cannon firing through prop spinner! massive fail) , his writing is also a bit poor also he must have used the word 'however' several hundred times. All in all it was a decent read. It still must have been a mighty bit of research.

I looked at the link for the SimHQ library and man it has some great stuff. There is one about ww2 fighter tactics which could be really awesome. I have 'Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering' but it didn't really teach me that much, also it's geared towards jets.


Formerly JG5_Emil
#3344791 - 07/18/11 06:25 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Bungay rules, off hand.

I think he does because he seems to able to read German and to understand the Germans.
It's the only book so far I read that comprehended to a good extend the German way of seeing the war. This in contrast to the numerous English and American accounts I read.

I may interject a short conversation I had with my Grandfather 20 y or so ago: I learned that he married Grandmother and was ordered to the Western Front on the day after the marriage. I asked him if he was not feeling sorry about this, having just married and all. You know, facing war, the atrocities and such ...

He looked at me really surprised and answered with a smile "Why ? We were winning ..."

Michael.

#3344821 - 07/18/11 06:49 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: DocW]  
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Your German i guess DocW? What year was he talking about?

cheers.

#3345004 - 07/18/11 09:13 PM Re: Battle of Britain by James Holland [Re: ZG26_Emil]  
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Freycinet Offline
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Poor James Holland, I don't think he would have liked the way this thread is going off-topic... sicko


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