Not normally into US/NATO SAMs, but I just ran across these links while looking for something else. I thought the first link was especially interesting.

http://www.thuleforum.com/nike.htm
http://nikemissile.org/RCDC.shtml

hi!

there is some screenshoots of this big offset between -Display 2 of SNR-125 and P-15/19:

I'm at "Hungary-1989", the target is Mig-21Mf at 13Km Altitude.




at the end of tracking at 50Km the offset is reduced, but still present


At the end we loss completely the target, but still in P15/19.

Not normally into US/NATO SAMs, but I just ran across these links while looking for something else. I thought the first link was especially interesting.

Nike Simulator from Ed:
http://ed-thelen.org/NikeSimulation.html

there is some screenshoots of this big offset between -Display 2 of SNR-125 and P-15/19:
I'm at "Hungary-1989", the target is Mig-21Mf at 13Km Alt.

One pic would have been enough

Target Acquisition Radars display horizontal distance "D", while Fire Control Radars display slant range "R".

Only if the target fly at high altitude it is really noticable...

Hi !

I have a question about automatic firing mode in S-125:
in salvo mode it launch the two missiles from channel 1 & 2.
but in non salvo mode, it don't use missiles in channel 2, even if the two channel 1 is empty !
we can launch channel 2 missiles manually, even if automatic firing mode is ON !
but if we change to other launcher (and automatic firing mode still ON).... the missile in channel 1, Go!

some explanation? Hpasp?

Humm .. ther is the secret! so simple so that!

Thank you for reply !

I have a question about automatic firing mode in S-125:
in salvo mode it launch the two missiles from channel 1 & 2.
but in non salvo mode, it don't use missiles in channel 2, even if the two channel 1 is empty !
we can launch channel 2 missiles manually, even if automatic firing mode is ON !
but if we change to other launcher (and automatic firing mode still ON).... the missile in channel 1, Go!
some explanation?

You nearly described all the inbuilt logic of the system

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)

3, At manual mode, if salvo is set, you can still decide if you want to launch 1 or two missile.
If you launch No1, than No2 will be launched automatically.
If you launch No2, than there will be no salvo.
(as salvo is only capable of launching No2)

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)

what's mean reset for you!
Because if we select new launcher (and automatic firing mode is already ON - and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier).... the missile in channel 1 is launched automatically, ... it Go!
it will not be reset!

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)

it launch missile n°1, if n°1 not present, it will launch n° 3 if present ! right? (and if the "Razreshenie" lamp is already illuminates, and we change to new launcher, with n°1 ready -or n°3 ready- , it will be aunched automatically!) is it right?

3, At manual mode, if salvo is set, you can still decide if you want to launch 1 or two missile.
If you launch No1, than No2 will be launched automatically.
If you launch No2, than there will be no salvo.
(as salvo is only capable of launching No2)


and we can't launch missile n°3 or n°4, before launching n°1 and n°2, is it right?

1, It will automatic launch if the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier.
(You can reset this by selecting new launcher)
(Automatic launch is for the first salvo, at the furthest possible range)

what's mean reset for you!
Because if we select new launcher (and automatic firing mode is already ON - and no missiles were launched to the same target earlier).... the missile in channel 1 is launched automatically, ... it Go!
it will not be reset!

Exactly.
Auto launch on.
If the "Razreshenie" lamp illuminates, it will launch automatically, then a blocking unit will prevent further launches against the same target.
If new launcher is selected, the blocking unit is reseted, and missiles will be automatically launched against the same target.


Historically might be interesting, that originally this system was designed for auto launch capability only, without the manual launch possibility.
Soviet military rejected this idea during testing, stating "Operator should have the possibility of manual launch, even if hit is unlikely, just to scare the enemy as last chance".
So the system was redesigned, keeping parts of the original autolaunch capability in place.

2, Automatic launch will launch No1 missile all the time first.
(if there is no missile at No1 launcher, it will not work)
(If a salvo set, No2 missile will be launched)

it launch missile n°1, if n°1 not present, it will launch n° 3 if present ! right? (and if the "Razreshenie" lamp is already illuminates, and we change to new launcher, with n°1 ready -or n°3 ready- , it will be aunched automatically!) is it right?

Again history is involved.
This system was originally designed with launchers capable of handling two missiles...

“In June 1961 Aleksandr Alekseyevich set about creating a modification that was
designated Neva-M. Our OKB-304 participated in this effort. Our joint activities soon were
crowned with success. The plant assimilated the technology for printed circuit board assembly.
Reliability increased and the military confirmed our conclusion that it was possible to assimilate
the station for series production. This elicited a new requirement: increase the station’s capability
to fire on targets flying at very low altitudes.

Minister of Defence of the Soviet Union

“At approximately the same time, Dmitriy Fedorovich Ustinov proposed that Grushin
place not two, but four missiles on a launcher. Petr Dmitriyevich thought a moment and said:
“’The launcher won’t stand that.’
“Ustinov:
“’Well, humor me. Do it.’

So No1 means channel one.

what I have personally see in land (real firing polygon), that automatic launch and automatic guiders of missiles not used at all !
may be also proximity fuse is in manual mode ! (using K3 I think!)

Gentlemen... I got it!

Congrat.
Just use only the I87V/TT method...
... and do not forget, that the Vietnamese were denied of the Volhov during the War.
They had to fight with the Dvina.

what I have personally see in land (real firing polygon), that automatic launch and automatic guiders of missiles not used at all !
may be also proximity fuse is in manual mode ! (using K3 I think!)

Hmmm, strange...
... Hungarians were used the automatic launch with salvo at Ustka Poligon (in Poland) always.

Thanks.
Maybe that's why they didn't shoot down any.

Thanks.
Maybe that's why they didn't shoot down any.

This simulation tries to be as close to reality as possible. [still no 3d visualization of engagements ]
If you overachieve real historical results, than may be the actual operators were under achieving, or the system you use are better than in real history...
... and also, real operators had only ONE chance in a given situation.

As thou wish, Sire.
I was experimenting a bit and luckily managed to shoot it down

Yeah, I know it's only a simulation.
But still it's pretty challenging and interesting!

This will be long one:

1. V-601PD does the job!

10:22am 30th of June 1970
First wave, performing reconnaissance of the Cairo air defense system.

Reconnaisance force:
4 RF-4 Orev
4 Mirage-IIICJ

S-125M1 Neva


11:09, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-1
Target distance: 20km
Target azimuth: 146°
Target elevation: 1°
Target altitude: 426m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


11:15, V601PD 5V27D Missile launched on Channel-2
Target distance: 18km
Target azimuth: 142°
Target elevation: 1°
Target altitude: 426m
Missile guidance method: PS (Lead)


11:34, Missile exploded on Channel-1
Mirage-IIICJ number 1 of flight-1 hit by SAM. (miss distance: 63m)

11:43, Missile exploded on Channel-2
Mirage-IIICJ number 1 of flight-1 killed by SAM. (miss distance: 58m)


Total, SNR On Air Time: 1min 34sec

I was unable to do it with V-601 before (described earlier), the Mirages went slightly off range.

What I observed during the engagement (several variants tested), was that it's hard to lock the angle even when the reflection brightness is easily distinguishable at SDC. What's more, the only way to maintain the lock is to switch SDC off at some stage (I suspect that's due to low radial speed of the target - described in the manual) - but how the lock is being maintained when target and ground reflections become impossible to distinguish? Did you incorporate a kind of "intelligent tracker"?


2. When we are already here: it would be a great advantage (and further step towards reality) to introduce a simplified manual tracking in the SAMSIM (e.g. up-down arrows - elevation, left-right - azimuth, pg up - pg dn - range -- so that it can be done with one hand). First, I think it will show the beauty of the systems where so much still depended on operator skills, and, what some of us would like even more - add a few more switches . It would be especially desirable after you introduced ground reflection modelling and possibility to lose the auto tracking.


3. One comment on the Hungarian Ustka practice, based on Peter Skarus memories: DDR-Germans never used auto-launch. What's more, they were taught to absolutely ignore the UK-31M1 range rings! The decision to shoot was taken based only on own experience of the commander (and a bit of calculations taken in the memory in the meantime). According to the author, there were several reasons for that:
First - and what is not modelled in the game (maybe should be?)- the time between establishing a lock (or reporting "track" by all three manual trackers) and the machine starting to display the rings was supposed to be the sometimes vital 4 to 8 seconds (ah, those early analogue computers!).
Second - the German concept of "kill zone" was based on a bit different assumptions from UK-31M1 logic: UK-31M1 assumes that the target will not radically change course after missile launch. The Germans would shoot only when ANY maneuver using maximum assumed speed would not bring the target outside the missile range. If the course parameter was to be above 12,5 km (also calculated in memory, using just a ruler put on UK-31M1 screen!!) they did not shoot at all.

And about the timing: does the famous 20 seconds from 1999 situations include the missile flight time or not?

By the way, from a former Polish Volkhov battery operator I know that the time between "transmit on" and "pusk" required for a "very good" grade in training (in this particular coastal brigade, potentially "first to shoot" in case of war with NATO, for the commander, everything below "vg" was "unsatisfactory") was 3-4 seconds. As I was told, they were able to do it by:
- early detection using PRV-13!! (supposedly, in some situations more sensitive than P-18)
- prediction of flight parameters (incl. speed - therefore many launch parameters could be set beforehand) using correct interpretation of P-18 picture. The "transmit" was switched on when they were sure when the target mark would exactly appear on the screen (that meant all three boresight lines roughly in place).

What I observed during the engagement (several variants tested), was that it's hard to lock the angle even when the reflection brightness is easily distinguishable at SDC. What's more, the only way to maintain the lock is to switch SDC off at some stage (I suspect that's due to low radial speed of the target - described in the manual) - but how the lock is being maintained when target and ground reflections become impossible to distinguish? Did you incorporate a kind of "intelligent tracker"?

Correct. Low radial speed of the target could make target acquisition using SDC impossible.
If the target is on tracking, it is not impossible to track it without SDC.