Can someone do me a favor and describe how robust the carrier ops are in this game? In comparison to say Jane's F-18?

I am looking for a robust, modern-ish, western, naval aviation sim that runs with no problems on a modern PC. I know 3rd Wire is working on a Tomcat sim but, I am jonsing and need a fix now but, I'm not gonna bother if the carrier ops are weak.

Thanks!

If you're looking for JF-18 in ThirdWire, you're not gonna find it...well, except for maybe the terrain.

SF2: Vietnam has native carrier ops and it performs it the best. Unfortunately, if you're wanting an LSO and the whole nine yards, you're better off avoiding. The Tomcat sim TK is working on isn't going to be appreciably more complex, so you might want to look on eBay for a used copy of JF-18.

I love it, the game is absolutely awesome for what it does, but based on what you're looking for, you're going to be disappointed. Landing is better off done by autopilot or from a 3rd person view because trying to use the flight models of the aircraft to land on the deck from cockpit is almost impossible due to a lack of the CLS/ILS system.

I really only use the vv and aoa indexer to land in most sims. An ILS is nice but, it's not enough for the way I do.

I presume the carrier based jets in Thirdwire sims have velocity vectors and aoa indexers that are accurate enough to allow for successful traps.

I own SF2 Europe so I know what I am getting into systems and graphics wise. I do not need detail that gets down to differentiating CASE recoveries, I really just want working catapults and arresting gear.

Thanks for the response

http://www.thirdwire.com/project_sf2v.htm

The manual does not mention carrier operations at all. I presume you need to at least drop the tailhook to trap?

What is a typical carrier mission like? Do you start on the cat? Is take off automated? When I land, can I taxi over to the cat to launch again?

Thanks!

I presume this is SF2V. Looks pretty good!

Although I can do it consistently. Not easy but largely doable.

Didn´t mean to troll. Honest.

No trolling. I presume there are people who can do it consistently without running a bird into the deck once.

I am not one of those people.

To answer UTR, no, you cannot taxi and relaunch on the deck, as far as I know. You do launch from the deck and the AI and you will both recover at the end of the mission. The carrier ops are fairly rudimentary, but not HAWX-style stuff. Basically, it's too hard for arcade kiddies and not really in depth enough for hardcore sim pilots. I prefer LOMAC/FC2's style of carrier operations. ThirdWire games are all about the combat.

That isn't to say it's useless or even bad, it's not. I like it, but I let the autopilot handle it and take screenies.

I appreciate the responses guys, thank you.

I will hold off on Vietnam and get my old Jane's F/A-18 box up and running to satisfy my naval aviation bug.

ILS does work in SF2, watch the ball in the cockpit while you are landing... just saw it work with a carrier landing the other day. I just don't trust it. I stay in the pit for landings, but periodically dip my nose low enough to see the deck, then yank it up to suck up speed and descent rate just before touch down.

You start on the Cat with your wingmen and choose to launch by pressing a single key, making sure the flaps are down and you dont go into the water.

The landing - well you can land when you like - but look out for any other jets in the landing pattern. The final approach is visual, lower flaps, Hook, gear and try to bring her down - you have an AOA indexer which I dont rely on - and other dials are heads down (if you get rid of the games hud information)

Each jet has completely different (relatively accurate) flight models - the A-4 is a good one to learn with, the F-8 and F-4 can be pains - you will need to practise.

For non Vietnam scenarios with carriers and to improve everything else you need to modify the game.

ILS does work in SF2, watch the ball in the cockpit while you are landing...

I thought the ball (you mean the AOA indexer, right?) was just to indicate the optimal approach speed? Does it really work as an ILS?

On the attitude indicator ball are two white lines, one vertical and one horizontal to tell you if you are on glide slope and lined up with the runway/carrier. The AoA indexer, when used with the right throttle setting, helps you get the right speed/rate of descent, which needs to happen at the same time that you are on glide slope. At landing speeds, the throttle is used for rate of descent and the angle of attack is used to control speed. Typcially, the throttle setting is a known value for a given landing weight, i.e. set it to the correct % and leave it alone, then use pitch control to keep the indexer happy, which will force you to a fixed speed and rate of descent. However, the Third Wire sim flight models and instrumentation don't necessarily match the real thing. In general, the level flight drag values are too low in TK's sims, so you must use less throttle than the flight manuals specify to get the correct rate of descent. The relationship between the AoA indicator that drive the indexer lights and the actual AoA is non-linear and not especially well documented. In the case of the F-4, the indications actually change with the position of the landing gear due to air flow interference with the "weather vane" sensor when the gear is down. So TK's indexer indications may be off by 2 to 4 degrees, which is a huge difference aerodynamically and can put the nose up higher than it should otherwise be in the case of the F-4. My old SFP1 SP2a F-4 flight model did wonders to fix both issues, making landings per the flight manual actually look and feel a lot better. My solution in unmodified SF2 sims is to use the speed brake to increase the drag, which allows a higher throttle setting while maintaining the required rate of descent. I like to follow the indexer for the fun of it, but I would much rather see the carrier than believe the ILS + AoA indexer lights. If I ever make time to finish and release my last F-4B flight model upgrade, landing on SF2 carriers could be much more fun and realistic

Amen to that!

Just opening the break and leaving it on does not introduce too much drag?

Sreakeagle, thanks for the info. I did not realize there was ILS guidance in the attitude indicator, that's great news! Is this a series 2 feature or has it been there all along in the Series 1 titles? Does it work only with carriers or do the land bases have it too?



So is the ILS still good enough to get you on the deck if you keep it centered, or is it really not trustworthy? I'm not so concerned that the indexer and speeds etc. aren't right on the money per a real flight manual, but more that with the flight models in the game that it is actually useful. Does that also mean that using your speedbrake method with a higher throttle setting allows you to approach with a more nose down attitude so you can see the carrier better?

The Attitude indicator is tied to the current waypoint you are going to. The carrier acts like a moving waypoint so its a crude ILS implementation - better than nothing.

In SF1 I don't remember the pits having this at all - the 3rd Party F-5 Pit had it so the coding was there to use for the modders at least. Stock SF2 pits have far more functionality than the SF1 pits - they didnt just get high res makeovers.


You can test the instruments to see how accurate they are - but I certainly wouldn't trust them - you cant trust them - relying on instruments only coming in on a carrier would be asking for disaster. I was taught from day 1 to look out side and use the instruments as reference only when flying myself - and thats not in a $30 Million dollar Jet!!

[quote=MigBuster
The Attitude indicator is tied to the current waypoint you are going to. The carrier acts like a moving waypoint so its a crude ILS implementation - better than nothing.
[/quote]

Ok, good to know. So I wonder then if it's tied to current waypoint, does the glideslope bar relate to the planned waypoint altitude? I always forgot to write it down, so was never following the planned altitude of the flight. Probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference but would be cool to actually make a rendezvous with an escort package or something at a planned altitude and have a cockpit aid to make sure I'm where I should be. Or just write it down.

I have never tested it myself

I generally fly a profile based on the era and expected threats - so I have never followed the altitudes automatically generated for waypoints on the map.

The radio is also a good way to find the package you are supposed to escort.

Originally, in SF1, there was no ILS.
TK sneaked it in... maybe with WOI, but it only worked with runways, not carriers.
This thread made be check it out again and I discovered the ILS indications appeared to be working or at least moving in response to my moves.
I kind of tried it out last night:
I put the F-4 in auto pilot and watched the ILS as the AI flew it in for a landing.
It would seem that the ILS is aiming for sea/ground level while the AI Autopilot is aiming for the deck.
If the indicated offset is a fixed amount over the entire slope, then you could discover the correct offset by watching the auto pilot, or through your own trial and error with screenshots... then try landing with only ILS and AoA indexer indications.

The AoA indexer will keep you within a certain angle of attack range, which combined with a fixed throttle setting will result in a constant speed and rate of descent. So, use the AoA indexer to hold the angle steady (in the F-4, you have an actual AoA indciator as well), then find the throttle setting that provides the rate of descent you want.

Using the speedbrake adds enough drag to let you use a higher, more realistic throttle setting, but it is almost as easy to throttle back. The problem is that you need to use the throttle to adjust rate of descent, and with it throttled almost all the way back, it is much more sensitive to changes in position. With the increased drag and resulting increased throttle setting, you have smoother control over rate of descent... but if you get into trouble, just toggle the brakes and go to afterburner

You know, I never even noticed that ILS gauge before.

Today I was bringing my F-8 back from a strike on N. Vietnam. Boltered the first pass high. Took a lap around and as I was working the pattern I thought back to this thread. Sure enough, there's an ILS gauge on the top right in the pit. So I got myself centered up about 3/4 mile back from the boat and used the ILS and got aboard no problem. Boy, that sure does make things easier!

The carrier ops in WoV definitely aren't quite JF-18 material, but they're "good enough" in my opinion. It's still a challenge to put your jet on that little itty-bitty postage stamp size piece of runway.