great interview, so as we all know (and as this guy confirmed) camel had strong gyroscopic effect of the rotary engine....not present in the game...not like in DR1.....pfftt.... and....interesting note about lifespan of the Dolphins engine...
Last edited by Tvrdi; 06/28/1109:57 AM.
Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
great interview, so as we all know (and as this guy confirmed) camel had strong gyroscopic effect of the rotary engine....not present in the game...not like in DR1.....pfftt.... and....interesting note about lifespan of the Dolphins engine...
thoughts?
Once upon a time, A. Petrovich wrote: "Thank you all, guys, for your attention to FM"
The Camel on the ground exibits strong engine torque - blip the throttle on the ground and you'll see the torque.
Conduct a loop in the Camel and you'll feel the gyro.
Yes, there is something, somewhere that's missing - but it's not torque and it's not gyro.
If you can agree with this - then clearly there is a "twisting" power that's not there. I believe there is a sole missing component in the FM and that it's the source of many FM oddities, from the odd spin recovery of some aircraft to the Camel - which is markedly different in right turns than it should be.
This "missing twisting component" is also related to why the Dr.I flies like it does versus the Camel.
S!
Gunny
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
Mack McGill: World War I Fighter Pilot - on the Camel
"In taking off, if you weren't aware of it, it killed a lot of pilots this way, 'cause taking off if you weren't prepared for what would happen with the motor would have so much pull one way, that it could just, taking off would take it right into the ground, you see - but you had to be prepared to put full rudder on against that when you took off in order to fly straight you see, and actually during the war that was a good factor because a Camel would be dived on by a German plane and he would suddenly (the Camel) let the plane switch around with the pull from the motor, you see, and he'd get the enemy plane before you knew it."
That's what I heard in the interview above. I resisted the urge to describe Mr. McGill's hand motions - but they are significant. I had not seen this video previously. To me, the text of Mr. McGills interview which I've highlighted above, sounds eerily like another set of Entente pilots of inline engine aircraft, describing another rotary engined, short-coupled biplane scout they had encountered on 23 September 1917:
"The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not by climbing nor Immelmann turn, but sort of a flat half spin" James T. McCudden
"On seeing my feeble attempt, he whipped round in an extraordinary way, using no bank at all, but just throwing his tail behind him..." Verschoyle P. Cronyn
S!
Gunny
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
Don't forget that people took-off with a full fuel tank and that makes a huge difference in ROF.
Even with full fuel, you don't need that much rudder on take-off. Maybe the rudder is just too efficient in ROF.
There's also been a very interesting thread on theaerodrome forums, discussing dihedral. To sum it up, some people there were saying that a dihedral on a rotary engine plane would cause the plane to jaw in a turn and because of that, more rudder was required to counter that, as opposed to planes with no dihedral.
About the DR.I, unlike the Camel it doesn't have a vertical stabilizer. So it could be possible that it actually required more rudder input to fly that plane. I'm not sure if any DR.I pilot ever flew a Camel or vice-versa, so i wouldn't say that it's that unlikely that the DR.I was even more sensitive than the Camel.
Whole squadrons got equipped with the Camel, especially the RNAS, and they replaced Pups, which were relatively easy to fly. While DR.Is were usually given to very experienced pilots, who could probably control the plane better than rookie British pilots could fly the Camel.
The Camel has a very small rudder area, with all it's fuel, engine, guns, ammo, and pilot residing within only 7 feet of the aircrafts airframe - up forward.
The Gyroscopic precession force is very large (385 lb Clerget 9B rotating at up to 1500 rpm) - so any change in direction, produces an extremly strong force 90 degrees clockwise (viewed from cockpit).
The interaction is more complex than that - due to secondary effects of the spiral slipstream/propwash - rotating around the fueselage and impacting wings, and most importantly aft control surfaces. Note the relative size of the Camels vertical stablizers versus it's rudder. The slipstream rotates in the direction of the propeller "pushing" the left wings, left vertical stabilizer up, creating a twisting motion - also to the right (right twist).
In any event - the desired outcome produces very well documented need to use significant amounts of left rudder in just about everything you do in a Camel. Here's some small examples, please note the application of left rudder:
and more....
Now take the ROF Camel, roll right and attempt to make a 360 sustained turn with no rudder. Yes, you can do it. In the real Camel you would have corkscrewed downward in a right direction.
The Dr.I in ROF, flies much more like the Camel should. The question is "why"?
Is it not enough Gyroscopic precession forces or no spiral slipstream modeled on the aft controls surfaces, a combination of both or what?
S!
Gunny
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
I'm a Camel rider and accept what I have to fly. I am aware from research that the Camel's right hand turn was lightning fast and the left hand, against the rotary was very slow. I have quoted contemporary pilots who say it was faster and easier to turn 270 to right than to turn ninety to left. I am sure the developers are aware of small faults like these and like the SE5a engine they will be addressed. But I know also there are realities that constrain what they would like to do and when they can do it. We have the beta of a good career which probably has taken blood, sweat and tears. I know most of us are satisfied that Jason and the crew listen and do what they can to give us what we want. SO fix my bleedin' Camel. : Just kidding-- Honestly. And if anyone even thinks I mean just a small part of a complaint -- I don't. I'm a happy chappie and addicted to ROF
Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
Thanks Gunslinger. Your submission came as I was writing mine and it was great reading. Problem is I like a challenge and want the real thing even more now. It's all your fault.
Do not be led into temptation. Find it for yourself
AN_Petrovich is a brilliant and resourceful fellow, I have faith
As you probably know, these non-linear forces affect all rotaries, not just the Camel or Dr.I. - however, gyroscopic precession, engine torque and spiral propwash should manifest themselves most in the Camel and Dr. I aircraft.
When RoF was first released, we were able to fly the N28. I felt these forces were not strong enough in that aircraft, but thought I'd wait for the Camel, before making any judgement. Turns out the Camel has the best documentation of them all - i.e. detailed pilot notes, post war testing, etc...
So, when I took my first Camel flight, I had two main expectations:
- 3/4 left rudder required for right turn to push and hold the nose up to level. That's a huge amount of rudder - only a 1/4 left. - 1/2 left rudder required for left turn to push and hold the nose down to level.
I found in my first Camel flights that sustained turns required very little if any rudder. This is still true today. When I jumped in the Dr. I then - whoaaa, the rudder required for turn was there! The Dr.I felt much more like the Camel pilot notes described the Camel.
The funny thing to me about the situation is it's dual edge. In the Camel's case, it would be more tricky to fly - however you would be able to conduct combat manuevers that are impossible currently.
S!
Gunny
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
This is the first time I`ve heard about any Spad`s and Camel`s in the near vicinities of the fight, and would explain why he chose to stay and fight despite being a mile or two behind the lines, se5a`s could easily follow and shoot him down on landing approach.
The propeller effects apply to all aircraft, not just rotaries.
Helical prop-wash is similar for both inline and rotary aircraft.
Gyroscopic effects are twice as strong (roughly) for rotary compared to inline types looking purely at the engine forces. The apparent strength goes up with lighter aircraft weight and smaller size, heavier more powerful engines (which use heavy propeller and optional fly-wheight to smooth power-cycle/reduce vibration) and heavier/larger propellers to absorb the power. It provides a lateral force (and yaw-wise torque) in response to pitch changes (and pitch change in response to rapid yaw) - the agile rotary scout therefore more often experience strong Gyro reactions, as they can generate higher rates and have somewhat higher ratios of MOI between propeller/engine and aircraft, but these should still be discernible with an inline of similar power and dimensions.
Roll effects of torque are much stronger for rotaries - the aircraft structure is lighter as the bulk of the engine counts as 'propeller' rather than 'airframe' when calculating the roll budget. In both cases there is a portion of the engine weight that is static, and part rotating - the MOI of the rotary is somewhat higher.
... To me, the text of Mr. McGills interview which I've highlighted above, sounds eerily like another set of Entente pilots of inline engine aircraft, describing another rotary engined, short-coupled biplane scout they had encountered on 23 September 1917:
"The German pilot saw us and turned in a most disconcertingly quick manner, not by climbing nor Immelmann turn, but sort of a flat half spin" James T. McCudden
"On seeing my feeble attempt, he whipped round in an extraordinary way, using no bank at all, but just throwing his tail behind him..." Verschoyle P. Cronyn
The "flat half spin" has little to do with this conversation given it resulted from the rudder config of the Dr1. This report comes from National Air & Space Museum simulation analysis. I would love if this could be included in the flight model, but as pointed out, our pedals and twisty joy sticks self-center.
If the rudder area is so small that large amounts of rudder must be utilized to turn the aircraft, then how does the addition of a vertical stabilizer change things?
Do you think the Camel a stable aircraft?
What manuever do you think Mr McGill is referring to with respect to the Camel?
S!
Gunny
The rotary could not re-circulate oil,so it had to dump it out onto the airframe. Castor oil, consequently, covered the entire aircraft after a short time. Even worse, atomized caster oil blew into the cockpit and impregnated the pilot. Pilots needed scarves to clean their goggles and faces. Since castor oil is a laxative, pilots suffered serious consequences after a few hours of flight. But such was the need for maximum power
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