#3328487 - 06/26/11 11:49 AM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: xnomad]
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,364
Freycinet
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 13,364
|
I have de-winged He-111, Ju-87 and blown up many 109's with a Spit or a Hurri but I've never seen catastropic damage caused by the 109's armament. If you dont' count fire that is. The fire is ineffective though, it always goes out and the plane never blows up! I constantly take off control surfaces (rudder, elevators) with the 109 cannons, that's usually seen as pretty catastrophical by the ones piloting the planes... I don't expect the cannons to break wing main spars, if that is what you mean, and I don't think that happened a lot in reality.
|
|
#3329044 - 06/27/11 12:40 AM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 77
xnomad
Junior Member
|
Junior Member
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 77
Sydney, Australia
|
I constantly take off control surfaces (rudder, elevators) with the 109 cannons, that's usually seen as pretty catastrophical by the ones piloting the planes... I don't expect the cannons to break wing main spars, if that is what you mean, and I don't think that happened a lot in reality.
Yep that's what I meant. I knew this would bring up the realism aspect of this and that's why I mentioned the Spit. Also the AI don't seem to find losing a horizontal stabiliser or an elevator as catastrophic, they continue on like nothing is wrong. Regardless of realism with the 8 MG's in the Spit I have taken the entire wing off the He 111 many times. I must admit I've mainly attacked fighters with the 109, but as I also mentioned I have never 'blown up' a Hurri or Spit with the 109 armament but I have blown up many 109's with the Spit and Hurri.
i5-2500K / P67A-UD3-B3 / GTX 560TI 1GB 900MHz OC 2 x 4GB DDR3 1600MHz RAM / Samsung 500GB Spinpoint F3 7200rpm / Antec TP 750 PSU / Win 7 HP 64bit / TrackIR 5 / MSFFB2 / CH Pro Throttle / CH Pro Pedals
|
|
#3329225 - 06/27/11 09:22 AM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Frankyboy]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,681
Old Dux
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,681
Derbyshire
|
well, a E-1 was some kilogramms (~30kg) lighter than a canon armed Emil. IF they had the same equipment (mainly armour). There was no standard in this in the LW during BoB ! Also it depends if the plane has a DB601A-1 or a DB601Aa installed. The higher compression engine with the diffeent fuel would be a DB601N btw, but than the plane would have a -/N suffix behind its name ! I guess, 1C gave both 109s the same engines......
( Any specific info on the E-2? Luftwaffe Quartermastergeneral returns quote 2/3 losses of this rare bird. Also 4 losses of the 109F-1 up to 31st Dec 1940 but not necessarily in the Battle of Britain? This, and the -2 sub-type had the DB601N of course. Did Galland fly the F-1 in the closing stages of the Battle of Britain? Fans of the engine-mounted cannon (F-1 and 2 had MG151 in either 15mm or 20mm calibre) may be drawn to this possibility.
'Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant.'
Manfred von Richtofen ---------------------------
|
|
#3329243 - 06/27/11 10:14 AM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
csThor
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
Germany
|
Stab/JG 51 received a number of Bf 109 F-1 in October. Mölders claimed a kill in one on October 25 1940.
Intel i7 960 @ 3.2 GHz - ASUS Rampage III Gene Republic of Gamers - 6GB RAM OCZ CL7 XTC Platinum PC3-12800 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 - 64GB Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA II - 1TB Western Digital WD1002FAEX SATA II - Creative Soundblaster Xi-Fi Titanium - Windows 7 Professional 64bit
|
|
#3329289 - 06/27/11 12:24 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Brealistic
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
|
I have de-winged He-111, Ju-87 and blown up many 109's with a Spit or a Hurri but I've never seen catastropic damage caused by the 109's armament. If you dont' count fire that is. The fire is ineffective though, it always goes out and the plane never blows up! I constantly take off control surfaces (rudder, elevators) with the 109 cannons, that's usually seen as pretty catastrophical by the ones piloting the planes... I don't expect the cannons to break wing main spars, if that is what you mean, and I don't think that happened a lot in reality. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm I saw a British test video of a 20 mm ff canon doing just that. Breaking a spitfire's main spar.
|
|
#3329330 - 06/27/11 01:14 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Brealistic]
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,683
ATAG_Snapper
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,683
Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
|
This is the best treatise I've read on relative effectiveness of WW2 fighter armament. While reading it I would be thinking of various objections, only to find them well-addressed as I continued further in the article. Some real surprises, especially the low rating of the Browning .50 BMG, but the article puts it all into perspective. Up until now, most of what I've read on this topic expressed weapon effectiveness in "pounds of projectile per second" with only a nod towards the greater destructive effect of HE cannon shells.
The article also acknowledges other factors that have too many variables to effectively measure: one that didn't surprise me? Pilot skill.
Thanks for posting this link.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HP Omen Laptop 15, AMD Ryzen 5 5600H 16 GB DDR4 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Laptop GPU 6 GB VRAM Win 11 64 bit, Nvidia GeForce Driver ver 512.95, TrackIR 5, Gear Falcon Trim Box, Gear Falcon Throttle Quadrant, TM16000 joystick, TM Warthog HOTAS, CH Quadrant, Saitek Pro Combat rudder pedals
|
|
#3329335 - 06/27/11 01:19 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Brealistic]
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,653
DocW
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,653
|
Yes, thanks Brealistic, that is a pretty interesting link. Good find. Michael
|
|
#3329455 - 06/27/11 03:36 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: DocW]
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
Brealistic
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 414
|
Yes, thanks Brealistic, that is a pretty interesting link. Good find. Michael Your very welcome buddy The test was done right at the wing root and took the wing off. The 20 mm is a "mine shell" It's thin walled and filled with explosives.
|
|
#3329573 - 06/27/11 06:40 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,681
Old Dux
Hotshot
|
Hotshot
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,681
Derbyshire
|
The penetrative power of even a solid core, slower firing FF round should not be underestimated.
I posted this back in the earlier Rowan Bob days, quoted from a Hurricane crash report.
"The shell went through the rudder post, through the radio, back armour, pilot (shifting his spine and rib-cage over some 4 inches left), instrument panel, glycol tank and exited top of engine cowling."
csThor,
Obviously, a Battle of Britain Bf109F kill then! Any others known?
'Find your enemy and shoot him down - everything else is unimportant.'
Manfred von Richtofen ---------------------------
|
|
#3330088 - 06/28/11 06:06 AM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
csThor
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
Germany
|
Would need to check Tony Wood's claimlists but don't have access to them here at work.
Intel i7 960 @ 3.2 GHz - ASUS Rampage III Gene Republic of Gamers - 6GB RAM OCZ CL7 XTC Platinum PC3-12800 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 - 64GB Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA II - 1TB Western Digital WD1002FAEX SATA II - Creative Soundblaster Xi-Fi Titanium - Windows 7 Professional 64bit
|
|
#3330270 - 06/28/11 01:05 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: csThor]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
KraziKanuK
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
Ottawa Canada
|
Would need to check Tony Wood's claimlists but don't have access to them here at work. Tony's list only goes up to the end of June 1940. The next list starts Jan 1941.
There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB. The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed. There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
|
|
#3330352 - 06/28/11 02:26 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
csThor
Senior Member
|
Senior Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,669
Germany
|
Typical. But Prien lists Mölders flying his first sortie in a Bf 109 F-1 (Werknummer 5628) on October 9 1940. Between that date and December 1 1940 he claimed 12 kills but unfortunately there's no mention of the aircraft he flew then. Perhaps a few were indeed claimed while flying a Bf 109 F-1.
Intel i7 960 @ 3.2 GHz - ASUS Rampage III Gene Republic of Gamers - 6GB RAM OCZ CL7 XTC Platinum PC3-12800 - ZOTAC GeForce GTX 480 - 64GB Crucial RealSSD C300 SATA II - 1TB Western Digital WD1002FAEX SATA II - Creative Soundblaster Xi-Fi Titanium - Windows 7 Professional 64bit
|
|
#3330413 - 06/28/11 03:32 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Freycinet]
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
KraziKanuK
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 10,113
Ottawa Canada
|
OK, it is from Wiki,
"On 11 October, Mölders claimed his 43rd victory. The 66 Squadron Spitfire I X4562 was flown by Pilot Officer J. H. T. Pickering, who bailed out, wounded, over Canterbury.[Weal 1999, p. 7.] Three Hurricanes on 12 October brought his tally to 51 victories."
Would say most probably at least 4 anyways.
There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB. The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed. There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
|
|
#3330613 - 06/28/11 07:30 PM
Re: CoD E-1 description...
[Re: Brealistic]
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 309
mazex
Member
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 309
Sweden
|
I have de-winged He-111, Ju-87 and blown up many 109's with a Spit or a Hurri but I've never seen catastropic damage caused by the 109's armament. If you dont' count fire that is. The fire is ineffective though, it always goes out and the plane never blows up! I constantly take off control surfaces (rudder, elevators) with the 109 cannons, that's usually seen as pretty catastrophical by the ones piloting the planes... I don't expect the cannons to break wing main spars, if that is what you mean, and I don't think that happened a lot in reality. http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm I saw a British test video of a 20 mm ff canon doing just that. Breaking a spitfire's main spar. Really interesting read. Sure - we knew it, but the awesomeness of the firepower in the 262 and the late 190:s is impressive...
|
|
|
|