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#3296424 - 05/16/11 05:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PN79]  
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Czechoslovakia spent much more on weapons than Hungary. (It was much more closer to NATO)

According to Soviet export data...

In 1959 both country imported 1 SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) "five van", and one SA-75 Dvina training complex.
Between 1960 and 1963 the SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) "three van" systems were imported, 16pcs by Czechoslovakia, 13pcs by Hungary.
Between 1963 and 1976, only Czechoslovakia imported 13pcs S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) systems, Hungary bought none.
Between 1977 and 1985, Hungary received 12pcs S-75M Volhov (SA-2E), while Czechoslovakia got further 5 pcs.

S-75M Volhov (SA-2E) system had 6 sub versions...
S-75M, S-75M1, S-75M2, S-75M3, S-75M4, S-75M3-OP
... all sets were upgraded into the latest upgrade version during 5 years maintenance.

This is why you can find so many screws on the FCO's panel, those switches were incorporated during a later upgrade...
thumbsup

The Volhov system in the SAM SIM was imported in 1977 as an S-75M2 Volhov (SA-2E), and was upgraded to the S-75M3-OP standard during 5 years maintenance.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3296479 - 05/16/11 06:41 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PN79]  
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I am pretty sure that amount of informations provided by your SAM Simulator isn't surpassed anywhere in the internet.

Just scratching the surface...
... an above mentioned book from "Osprey" says confidently in 2011, that "Fang Song had two functions - target acquisition of up to six targets"
banghead

Heck, WarPact had to wait till 1988 to receive a system capable of doing that....
duh


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3296541 - 05/16/11 08:00 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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how many targets the Fang Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).

#3296845 - 05/17/11 03:46 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3296863 - 05/17/11 04:51 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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how many targets the Fang Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3297069 - 05/17/11 02:57 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Brazil
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
how many targets the Fan Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it


Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

TY

Last edited by Redcoalition; 05/17/11 02:57 PM.
#3297166 - 05/17/11 05:16 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?


The "75" as an analogue system can display any number of targets.

No point to count those on the screen...

There is no limit on how many targets can be acquired.
The only limit is on target tracking, and that is one.
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3297196 - 05/17/11 05:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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DDG167 Offline
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-How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

...If you mean "see",Just as many as the targets in the beam.

*****************************
Hello,Hpasp.I have another question...China got 5 SA-75 between 1958-1959,do you know they are"5 van"or"3 van"?

Last edited by DDG167; 05/17/11 05:53 PM.
#3297273 - 05/17/11 07:23 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

There is no limit on how many targets can be acquired.
The only limit is on target tracking, and that is one.
thumbsup
Then i must say: Internet is full of crap! yep

And all that time they were putting B.S in my head... Not anymore, i tell you!

TY Hpasp!!!

Last edited by Redcoalition; 05/17/11 07:23 PM.
#3297702 - 05/18/11 12:16 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Then i must say: Internet is full of crap! yep

The problem is that Internet sites are just copying the same mistakes to another several sites, until everybody believes in it...
nope

And all that time they were putting B.S in my head... Not anymore, i tell you!

You as a SAM Simulator user should be more knowledgeable in this topic, than most of the others! (especially Osprey expert writers)
(Except than if they were actual FCO's...
... but than, they would not argue with you)
thumbsup


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3297704 - 05/18/11 12:21 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Hpasp Offline
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As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.

Yeah, it was so serious, that eventually nobody could got it outside of the Soviet Union...
yep


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3297707 - 05/18/11 12:28 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: DDG167]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Hello,Hpasp.I have another question...China got 5 SA-75 between 1958-1959,do you know they are"5 van"or"3 van"?

Warpact started to receive the "3 van" SA-75M Dvina (SA-2B) version in 1960.
I would bet that the 3 live and 1 trainer system shipped in 1958, and the 2 systems shipped in 1959 were SA-75 Dvina (SA-2A) "5 van" versions.


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3298701 - 05/19/11 04:52 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Hpasp Offline
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SAM Simulator update on the progress of development...

Currently the Digital Elevation Mesh implementation is ongoing, to simulate realistic ground clutter.

Volhov: 95% ready, only fine tuning and testing is ongoing.
Neva: 80% ready, some code writing, and testing is ongoing.
KRUG: 5% ready, preparation for the code writing is started.

Neva indicator using SDC (Moving Target Indicator) - Doppler Impulse mode.


cowboy


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3298904 - 05/19/11 08:09 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Brealistic Offline
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Excellent ! winner

#3299399 - 05/20/11 07:31 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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The Kubs (SA-6) 1S91s (radar) working stations are displayed and described here:

http://www.flak11.de/2K12-Start.htm

You should enter 1S91 and then Innenansichten titles at the left menu.

The working positions inside the launcher vehicle: 2P25 and then Innenansichten.

#3299782 - 05/20/11 06:15 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
As for favourite SAM systems for SAMSIM, I'd have to go for the Antey 2500/S-300VM, now thats a serious system.

Yeah, it was so serious, that eventually nobody could got it outside of the Soviet Union...
yep

hahaha Is it just too expensive a system?


*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3299860 - 05/20/11 07:44 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Wolfhound]  
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Hpasp Offline
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Is it just too expensive a system?

I have no knowledge of any WarPact country planned to field it, till the end of the Cold War.

At the Army level...

Strela-2 was to be succeeded by Igla
KRUG with BUK
Shilka with Tunguska
Strela-1 with Strela-10
KUB and OSA with TOR

At the PVO...

Volhov and Neva was planned to be supplemented with S-300PMU
Vega was planned in bigger numbers

No plans for S-300V.
(It was big guy toys only...)


Last edited by Hpasp; 05/20/11 07:45 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3300309 - 05/21/11 11:06 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PN79 Offline
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Is it just too expensive a system?

I don't think that S-300V was allowed for export before collapse of the USSR.

Btw. in Czechoslovakia:
Front (group of armies) - KRUG brigade (no replacement in plans for 1990s before velvet revolution)
Army - KUB regiment (planned to be replaced with BUK brigade in one army)
Division - KUB, OSA, 57mm guns (57mm guns in one division planned to be replaced with TOR - most of divisions had just 57mm AAG)
Regiment - Strela-1, Strela-10, 30mm PLDvK-53/59 (most of divisions had just PLDvK-53/59, planned to be replaced by STROP II new 30mm AAG in development)
Battalion - Strela-2 (planned to be replaced by Igla)

Last edited by PN79; 05/21/11 11:09 AM.
#3300489 - 05/21/11 06:19 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Wolfhound Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
Is it just too expensive a system?

I have no knowledge of any WarPact country planned to field it, till the end of the Cold War.

At the Army level...

Strela-2 was to be succeeded by Igla
KRUG with BUK
Shilka with Tunguska
Strela-1 with Strela-10
KUB and OSA with TOR

At the PVO...

Volhov and Neva was planned to be supplemented with S-300PMU
Vega was planned in bigger numbers

No plans for S-300V.
(It was big guy toys only...)



Apparently the Russian army should be receiving a more advanced S-300V4 sometime this year?

EDIT *** I just realised that the S-300V4 hasn't actually been defined, as in the components (radar and missiles) that will make up the system, despite the use of the 'V' designation. So it may be based on the S-300 rather than the S-300V *** EDIT

Last edited by Wolfhound; 05/21/11 06:31 PM.

*********I have quite a large collection of Flight, Weapon Systems, Tactical & Supplementary Aircraft Manuals for Jets, Helicopters & some Props, spanning the Vietnam era to present. If you're interested in trading Flight Manuals, mainly for modern military aircraft, send me a PM.*********
#3300870 - 05/22/11 01:10 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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Cat Offline
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Somewhere....over the Rainbow
Originally Posted By: Redcoalition
Originally Posted By: Hpasp
how many targets the Fan Song can acquire at the same time?
Is this information on SAM Simulator manual (i don't remember seing this).


At "Engagement Zone" paragraph...
The S-75M3-OP has one target and three missile channels, meaning that it can track one target, and guide three missiles onto it


Yes, i know. I think we had a misunderstanding, so. I thought that "acquire" meant "follow, see", not "engage".
I thought that track = engage step, and acquire= follow step.

well, reformulating the question ... How many targets Fan Song can follow (see) at the same time?

TY


This question is asking about a 1960s Russian ground radar with terms and concepts derived from operating simulated post-1970s U.S. and NATO air radars that are common in modern combat flight simulations. This is causing a little confusion, since we see very little of Russian systems (the Lock On series being the only exception I'm familiar with) and their concepts and operations are very different than Western practice.

The poster wants to know whether the S-75 systems were capable of modes equivalent to the West's track-while-scan mode, and the answer is "no." Even Russian air radars weren't capable of two-target TWS until the late 1980s. The air-search P-18 we are seeing in SAM Simulator is a generic version, showing a generic range-while-scan of multiple targets and allowing us to pass info to the very detailed fire-control radar. It does not designate specific targets of interest; rather, it gives bearing and height info so we can swing the cab of the fire control radar to the proper location. The fire control set, being analog with Doppler functions, can SEE all, but it can only LOCK and TRACK a single target. It doesn't have a TWS type mode that would enable it to designate multiple targets, maintain altitude and heading information on them, and then vector missiles onto those multiple targets, either. In air parlance, you go from wide-scale RWS directly to STT, similarly to guidance for the Sparrow in games like Lock On: Flaming Cliffs.

Helpful at all? smile

Miao, Cat


Miao, Cat
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