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#3226264 - 03/06/11 05:18 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PN79 Offline
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Actually 5V27D were available also during Cold War. Czechoslovakia bought some in late '80 together with S-125M1A upgrade but I don't know how many of them. Anyway it would be wrong to have these in 1970 scenario. And, is it known if Serbs used this missile against F-117 or the older type?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3226661 - 03/07/11 01:56 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PN79]  
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PLCC Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp

Before '99, everybody used the V-601P, (-PU, -PD, ...).

I heard rumors, that the 5P73 could handle only 3pcs of V-601D, as those weight is higher.


As far as I can tell, the V-601PD is the 5V27D.

Those rumors are familiar to me as well, but it appears that no such restriction was in place with the latest S-125 variant.
For example:







Originally Posted By: PN79
And, is it known if Serbs used this missile against F-117 or the older type?

I believe that they did.

Last edited by PLCC; 03/07/11 01:58 AM.
#3226786 - 03/07/11 06:42 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
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Hard to follow Soviet missile designations, but...

S-125 Neva system used the V-600P 5V24 missile.
S-125M Neva-M system used the V-601P 5V27 missile types...
5V27G, 5V27GP, 5V27GPS, 5V27GPU
S-125M1 Neva-M1 used the 5V27D.

In Hungary we had the S-125M1 with 5V27U, and 5V27D missiles.
(photos made during decommissioning)




During 99, the Pechora-2M modernization was revealed, with updated missile.
V-601D (?) 5V27D. It has modernized guidance method KDU, more heavy 2nd stage and bit higher range and top speed.

more info here: http://pvo.guns.ru/s125/index.htm


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3226791 - 03/07/11 07:19 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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By the way, KDU is used by the Belarusian Pechora-2T and 2TM, not the Russian Pechora-2M. The changes are entirely algorithmic. Unmodified 5V27D missiles are used by the 2T/2TM.

The 2M is supposed to be armed with 5V27DE missiles, on which there is not much information. Apparently, the warhead and fuse were replaced, along with the booster.


Originally Posted By: Hpasp

(photos made during decommissioning)

nope It's a sin to wreck such beautiful hardware!

Last edited by PLCC; 03/07/11 07:24 AM.
#3227972 - 03/08/11 01:50 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: PLCC
Unmodified 5V27D missiles are used by the 2T/2TM.

The 2M is supposed to be armed with 5V27DE missiles, on which there is not much information.

So the information here is wrong?
It says that the Pechora-2M can also be loaded even with older 5V27.

Last edited by Redcoalition; 03/08/11 01:50 PM.
#3228034 - 03/08/11 02:43 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Redcoalition]  
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V-601P 5V27U and V-601PD 5V27D were used in the WarPact countries, so their behavior will be simulated.

I was not able to find any contrary to the mentioned article...

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/08/11 02:47 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3229538 - 03/09/11 07:10 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Neva system using 90m Digital Elevation Mesh...


Last edited by Hpasp; 03/09/11 07:17 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3230544 - 03/10/11 06:21 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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WASHINGTON - A senior U.S. official says NATO has decided to boost flights of surveillance planes over Libya as the alliance debates the utility of imposing a "no-fly zone" over the country.
U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder says allies agreed on Monday to increase AWACS flights from 10 to 24 hours a day. The expansion is part of contingency planning for possible military intervention in Libya beyond humanitarian efforts.


I would be interested, which side is currently owning the four active S-200VE Vega-E (SA-5B Gammon) SAMs...
confused


Last edited by Hpasp; 03/10/11 06:26 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3230592 - 03/10/11 07:12 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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In Libya there is 8 prepared Vega sites.
The 8 active battery can be located to 17 possible locations...

According the Google Earth 2011 imagery...

Tripoli
- 2 battery, with 0+2 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles
- empty prepared site for 3 battery (!!!)

Zlitan
- 2 battery, with 3+2 missile on launcher

Surt
- excluding the 2 destroyed battery site...
- 2 battery, with 0+2 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles

Benghazi
- 2 battery, with 0+3 missile on launcher, with facilities to store and prepare extra missiles
- empty prepared site for 2 battery
- empty prepared site for 2 battery

Tobruk
- empty prepared site for 2 battery

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/10/11 07:26 PM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3231107 - 03/11/11 08:32 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PLCC Offline
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An interesting question.

Tripoli, of course, is secure; Ziltan too.

Sirt is near the edge of control, but has not been captured yet. I don't imagine that Libyan forces are so incompetent that they would lose Qaddafi's birthplace (the town of Qasr Abu Hadi, 15 km to the south), and the adjacent active military airfield and SAM site -- but I've already been surprised...

In my assessment, we can write off the Benghazi site. It's probably in a state similar to the one of the S-75 of which you posted photographs previously. It's too bad that the crews are so undisciplined that they would surrender such valuable equipment without apparent resistance.

How effective would the ground target mode have been against the rag-tag criminals? Given some of the news reports of them retreating when faced with serious resistance, it's curious whether they'd have avoided sites after the first missile fired at them. At the receiving end of a Volkhov in flight, I'd be inclined to shit myself in response, and they probably would too. Nonetheless, the crews may have simply found themselves without protection from military and security forces and lacking the means to effect a timely evacuation of their systems. Until there's some evidence of that though, my opinion of their performance will remain quite negative.

I'm looking forward to Qaddafi's victory. As evidenced by the recent statements of the US Director of National Intelligence, he finally seems to be getting his act together. While business as usual down may not have been very pleasant for everyone, there's a lot to be said for law, order, and stability. A secular, if tyrannical, government is in my opinion superior to any form of 'democracy' they could cook up down there.

Last edited by PLCC; 03/11/11 08:38 AM.
#3231126 - 03/11/11 09:36 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PN79 Offline
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I think that as for Benghazi site concerns soldiers here just went home if not joining uprising as most military units in eastern Libya.

Anyway I see the biggest problems with these "secular" dictatorship in economy. I know something more about Egypt but system is similar also to other these countries. Basic problem is that ruling group did not allow existence of any independent economic companies and at the same time they divide between themselfs all economic spheres so they are not rivals to each others. So in reality it looks like this: there is only one factory in whole Egypt which produce refrigerators - because of domestic production run by people close to regime (this will probably change now) any import of foreign refrigeratos is meet with extremely high import tarrifs (like 100% or similar). And because this producer have no rivals he did not care about quality or about low prices - one econom here described their products to be on level as in socialist Czechoslovakia in 1970s!!! However ordinary people here can see how people live in Europe and this creates similar effect to what was in communist block in 1980s - people want much higher standard of living than that corrupt system is able to provide so people riots.

Last edited by PN79; 03/11/11 09:37 AM.
#3231127 - 03/11/11 09:44 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Yeah, such abandoned Libyan Volkhovs were really funny. Wonder if they remained fuelled and armed... Poor goats, just in case smile Don't you know whether that site was abandoned as a result of uprising or it was just an evidence of daily "care level" in Libyan armed forces?

Can I have a few questions regarding Vega? They are based on the experiences from playing the 1985 scenario:

1. When the target starts jamming, there are cases when missiles that were switched to LOBL, when switched to HOJ, are unable to acquire the target. Signal strength is about 45 dB but the seekers cannot seeit a bug?

2. What to do when target changes the flight direction (closing to receding) after LOBL missile is launched? Is the missile lost? Or not, if the signal is strong enough? Would it be indeed sooo simple to fool a Vega?

3. Is there any relation between missile distance to target and the strength of reflected signal the missile receives? The closer the missile is to the target, the stronger signal it should receive otherwise, signal strength received by the radar being, say, 250 km away from the target would be the same as received by the missile being at the same moment, say, 20 km from the target?

#3231162 - 03/11/11 12:20 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PLCC]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: PLCC

I'm looking forward to Qaddafi's victory. As evidenced by the recent statements of the US Director of National Intelligence, he finally seems to be getting his act together. While business as usual down may not have been very pleasant for everyone, there's a lot to be said for law, order, and stability. A secular, if tyrannical, government is in my opinion superior to any form of 'democracy' they could cook up down there.
As PN79 said, the typical tyrannical government on those countries don't have a fair "free market" policy. Its rulers manipulate the economy at their whim and to their personal prosperity.
Besides, the same kind of state that could be established by a military after a coup could be established by a popular revolutionary government as well! They aren't a deformed and completely unorganized mob. They military forces are, but they have a pretty structured government for a embrionary state...
Plus they would, theoretically, represent the people's will, unlike a officer who participated on a military coup year ago...

Originally Posted By: PN79
I think that as for Benghazi site concerns soldiers here just went home if not joining uprising as most military units in eastern Libya.
Or captured by the rebels, as well as many Libyan military...
But i don't think it's very useful. I mean, the rebels from eastern front haven't, apparently, a well structured chain of command. And organization, discipline and planning is essential for the proper use of the S-75 and S-200 sites.
I don't think they could properly relocate the sites to do the air defence to the rebel ground forces (look like even those ZPU-4 and MANPADS were enough to achieve a average air-defence against Kadhafi's Air Force) and don't think the Benghazi's sites are in range for ground attack on the frontline, but i'm really not sure.

But the Kadhafi's sites looks much more useful! If they're working...

Last edited by Redcoalition; 03/11/11 12:21 PM.
#3232214 - 03/12/11 07:12 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: vintorez]  
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1. When the target starts jamming, there are cases when missiles that were switched to LOBL, when switched to HOJ, are unable to acquire the target. Signal strength is about 45 dB but the seekers cannot seeit a bug?

First always the RPC should reacquire the target, and only than the CVM could command the GSN where to look and reacquire.
(Hope that I'm not too technical biggrin )
Remember, to be able to acquire jamming target, the CVM should start another program (new program).

2. What to do when target changes the flight direction (closing to receding) after LOBL missile is launched? Is the missile lost? Or not, if the signal is strong enough? Would it be indeed sooo simple to fool a Vega?

You have 18 missiles comrade, do not spare those!!!
wink

All Doppler radars (even the most modern western designs) are affected by low radial target speed.

3. Is there any relation between missile distance to target and the strength of reflected signal the missile receives? The closer the missile is to the target, the stronger signal it should receive otherwise, signal strength received by the radar being, say, 250 km away from the target would be the same as received by the missile being at the same moment, say, 20 km from the target?

Yes


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

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#3235713 - 03/16/11 02:48 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Life will become more interesting, when the SRTM (Shuttle Radar Topography Mission) data will be implemented...

yep





Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3238222 - 03/18/11 11:56 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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PN79 Offline
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I am wondering how difficult would be to shoot at low flying targets with this feature. Thanks Hpasp.

#3238507 - 03/19/11 06:50 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: PN79]  
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I am wondering how difficult would be to shoot at low flying targets with this feature.

The development of the SDC program-block did not started yet...
(SDC-I, SDC-II, Low/High Speed Mode, Distant/Close Range Mode, Rough/Fine Wind Compensation)
...Fire Control Officers job will not be easier with this. biggrin

New controls to be used:


ready


Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3238527 - 03/19/11 08:56 AM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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It seems to be an AAA hit against Qaddafi's MiG-23 ...






Photos from: AFP - Patrick Baz

Last edited by Hpasp; 03/19/11 09:03 AM.

Hpasp
Free SAM Simulator, "Realistic to the Switch"

(U-2 over Sverdlovsk, B-52's over Hanoi, F-4 Phantoms over the Sinai, F-16's and the F-117A Stealth bomber over the Balkans.)
http://sites.google.com/site/samsimulator1972/home

Book from the author - Soviet Nuclear Weapons in Hungary 1961-1991
https://sites.google.com/view/nuclear-weapons-in-hungary/

thumbsup
#3238646 - 03/19/11 12:36 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Buren Offline
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Newest reports say it was actually a rebel fighter shot down by government forces.

#3238806 - 03/19/11 03:56 PM Re: SAM Simulator [Re: Hpasp]  
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Redcoalition Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hpasp
It seems to be an AAA hit against Qaddafi's MiG-23 ...

Looks like it was an MANPAD:


Last edited by Redcoalition; 03/19/11 03:56 PM.
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