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#3200835 - 02/07/11 12:08 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Im thinking to get FSX finally, theres the new A2A Spitfire...maybe with the option now to add MGs. Has anyone looked at Rising Sun?

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#3200884 - 02/07/11 01:36 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Originally Posted By: RSColonel_131st
Well, I'm surprised they didn't even fit a basic "random mission generator with some continuinity" like DGEN was. If the scripted missions are of the "go there, shoot three aircraft, fly home" type, and replay mostly the same, the game will get boring quickly offline.

But then I guess the lack of such a feature again indicates that the focus for them lies with MP.

And anyway, I don't buy limited activation games. So that's it then, BoBII WoV remains.


It is simply Oleg's tastes and him having higher priorities:
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpost.php?p=220854&postcount=336

The scripted missions have a trigger system (with randomisation) and will tend to have more detailed object/flight placement than a typical dynamic campaign. We will also have dynamic campaigns (and perhaps even strategic ones). IMHO, unlike RoF, Oleg has built in outputs for mission results (allowing 3rd party generators).

I just hope I won't have to keep buying a new copy every three years because I've used up the activations. I half-trust ED to administer their DRM fairly. I have no faith that the corporate giant will.
I may pick up the Russian version as a result (and patch it to English)

#3201100 - 02/07/11 05:27 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: Avimimus]  
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I trust Ubi to screw up anything it get's it's mitts on.

I see a lot of room for argument about the monthly "reinstalls".


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#3201176 - 02/07/11 06:33 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Avimius, you wager the russian release will use different CP? And yes, my main problem here is also with UBI at the helm...

#3201413 - 02/07/11 10:02 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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I'd conservatively give it a 60% probability that the RU release will have different DRM. I actually don't know of one title that has had identical DRM from both regions.

Do you remember the EA debacle in 2001 (during the high tech boom). Upper management killed a half dozen flight-sim studios and effectively wiped out the genre. If it wasn't for ED and Oleg...

#3201692 - 02/08/11 04:37 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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I will wait for the russian version also.

Being Ubisoft I, worried a lot how those paches will be distributed.

#3203709 - 02/10/11 03:23 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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If they include this DRM on top of Steam's, then I'm not going to buy it until they get rid of it. The whole reason I use Steam is so I don't get treated like a pirate and able in install/uninstall the game as many times as I want, and which I frequently do with all my games in my Steam library.

#3203745 - 02/10/11 04:33 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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I took a brief look into the .pdf manual from the tages website and the main question is: do the monthly reactivations accumulate or not?

That's what's i'm itching to know the most so far. If they accumulate, i will be able to install the game and drop from 5 activations to 4, but after a month i'll have 5 again.

If they don't accumulate, then depending on how mods are handled and what kind of hardware signatures it tracks there could be problems. There are some diverging possibilities and sub-categories of potential problems in this one.

Mods: If they are handled in a seamless fashion where there's a global OFF trigger unless a mod is specifically named in the server options as set to ON, it will be just like enforcing the difficulty settings and we'll be able to fly on every server with a single installation.

In this case, think of mods as modules on top of the base engine, just like FSX add-ons,and possibly stored in a dedicated sub-folder within the installation. So, i might have add-ons/mods A,B,C and D, but i join a server than only allows add-ons B and C. If it's handled this way, i won't need a separate installation because the server's logic will be something like:

IF modname=B OR modname=C THEN mod=ON ELSE mod=OFF
It would effectively shut everything down unless specifically allowed within the server's configuration file, and since mods would be stored in a different folder and not by modifying the base installation files it would be easy to monitor and manage. A server admin would have to compile a list of acceptable mods to run, just like they edit planesets, missions and realism settings.

If we need multiple installations however, then it could prove problematic unless the activations accumulate monthly up to the initial limit of 5.

Hardware: After reading their .pdf document, it seems that they are not trying to limit the amount of total installs but the amount of different PC's it's installed on, hence the hardware look-up function. The matter is, what kind of hardware? Ok, i'm sure that the majority of people won't do major upgrades on a frequency of more than once per 6 months or more. In my case, 5 activations would probably last me more than a year, barring the possibility of hardware failure and replacement. So, if it looks up the OS (it says it looks up software too, so i guess that's what it makes sense to look up), CPU and GPU it's not stuff that most of us change often.

However, if it tracks the other components too things could get ugly.
For example, one of the cheapest upgrades right now and something a lot of flight sims benefit from is RAM (not so much for fluid gameplay, but for loading times and keeping extra textures loaded there for when the GPU needs them instead of having to read them from the hard drive). That's exactly my one and only semi-planned upgrade for CoD. I've got a stock i7 920@2.6 Ghz with 3GB of RAM and an Ati 4890 1GB. I won't upgrade anything until i see how it runs, i'll tweak the detail settings and if i'm not happy i'll get another 3GB of RAM and that's it, i'm not going DX11 until today's top of the line GPUs drop below 150 Euros (which could be within 6 months to a year, there are already some mid-range DX11 cards priced at 180).

As you can see, i'll first install it and then decide on upgrading. If it tracks RAM then i'm wasting an extra activation. If an extra one doesn't stack up next month i'll already be down to three remaining.

Also, things like $20 DVD-R drives are pretty common and since they are so cheap, a lot of people prefer going through 2 or even 3 of them within a year than buying an expensive and more reliable $100 drive. Hard disks also do fail from time to time, particularly in cases where a faulty batch leaves the factory.
Finally, we have a load of USB activated devices like webcams, head trackers, portable USB drives or even external hard drives. I wouldn't like to see my game not start just because i have something plugged into a USB port that i didn't have during activation and having to go all trial and error just to play a game i paid for.

Actual activation process: The way it seems to work is something like this:
Pop disc in drive -> Enter CD-key to start installation -> when installation completes, Tages assigns an ID to each hardware component in your PC->Tages uploads the data and receives an activation code->Tages automatically installs activation code

The good points: There's a manual mode that allows you to save the file detailing your PC specs before it's uploaded. So, if for whatever reason you lack internet access you don't need to drag your entire case to someone who is connected, as all the information about your gaming PC's hardware specs that Tages needs will be in that file. Save the file on some removable media and manually upload it from somewhere else to receive your activation code in another text file. Save the text file, take it back home, copy-paste the contents into the activation window and you're done. Also, if you need to format and reinstall everything from scratch but you haven't made any hardware changes, you won't waste an extra activation as long as you've kept that file backed up. Just copy-paste the contents once more into the CoD activation tool and it will work again.

The bad points: I don't know what kind of format the uploaded PC specs are in. If the hardware component IDs are ran through an algorithm to produce a hash value before being uploaded then it's ok. If not, then everyone can see your exact PC specs. Personally that doesn't bother me too much from a purely practical standpoint, but i know it bothers a lot of people on a moral/ethical/matter of principle basis and to tell you the truth i quite sympathize with that opinion. Hardware surveys from the user base can be valuable tools for developers (and marketing execs as well) but they should be on an "opt-in", voluntary basis and not mandatory.

I hope i clear up some things more than i confused you guys smile

In any case, i hope that we can get some answers on these questions. To be honest, i'm very much anti-DRM but this seems mild compared to the junk that's seen the light of day during the past couple of years, yet i fully trust Ubi to muck it up somehow if they can be bothered to biggrin
Along this train of thought, there's a very important point made on the Tages website: the ONLY one who can replenish the amount of available activations is the publisher (aka Ubi), not Tages. Also, the amount of initial activations, the monthly re-activation option and replenishment of activations to the initial limit of 5, all seem to be controlled not by Tages, but by the publisher in question (once again, Ubi). Tages just gives them the tools and they decide on the options.

I hope it'd be a case of "PM your cd-key to an admin and receive 5 more activations" but you never know.

Worst case scenario? The DRM tracks even the secondary hardware components that change often due to minor upgrades or failures, modding needs multiple install, the 5 initial activations can't be replenished by proof of purchase (ie, sending them your CD-key) and the monthly activations don't stack but they are just a one-off virtual voucher that expires at the end of the month. In this (admittedly, worst of the worst cases) scenario, one could very well be left with the capability of reinstalling only once per month, even before the first expansion hits the shelves.

I think we should ask Ubi about the kind of options they asked Tages to include popcorn

#3203885 - 02/10/11 09:45 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Sensible summary.

For me as usual the main problem remains - what if Tages shuts down their server?

I might even get by on five activations, but that's not much help when 8 years from now Tages goes bankcrupt.

#3204177 - 02/10/11 05:16 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Thanks for the summary.

I'm sure I'll be running parallel installs (a minimalist one for choice mods and another for WIP mods/testing). I also expect to upgrade once or twice in the first two years. So, that is four down! I'll also probably try installing it on another machine (as the first upgrade will be about three months after release). This assumes that neither new machine will have a hardware failure.

I agree about the issues regarding the server. It is good to see that the UBI/1C Il-2:1946 is available DRM free m from GOG (and we can hope that this will someday be the case for the new sim). Unfortunately, business executives are capricious and "the winds sent by the gods fill sails, but also blow up storms".

P.S. The worst case scenario is that the monthly reinstalls are just that - the ability to install - and not actually activiations...

#3204772 - 02/11/11 02:50 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Activations are half the problem. I am sure this game will need plenty of patches.

#3205211 - 02/11/11 05:03 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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in the Cockpit of whatever I a...
I have preordered the Collectors Edition, at first just to add this sim to my collection, ranging from the old MicroProse and LucasFilm days over Dynamix up to Jane´s and all the other classics we have come to love over the years;

I won´t care much about it though till about summer, when I will get myself a new compi finally;
also, I am very happy with my current modded 4.09m install of IL2 and LOMAC Platinum, not to forget Rising Sun and OFF smile

concerning what has been said in this thread-I am pretty sure that good scripted campaigns can be as interesting or even better than boring dynamic ones;
to be honest, I play more scripted campaigns currently in IL2 than I do play dynamic ones;
Boelcke´s work has done much to improve the really boring original DGen ones, yet still the limited number of templates for dynamic campaigns makes the experience a rather dull one;

Oleg does not seem to have much interest to invest resources in a good dynamic campaign generator, or he has never played RB2 to get a glimpse of what a really great dynamic campaign has to be;
OFF would be another stellar example of how dynamic campaigns should be like, an that all is based on CFS3 - a rather average sim when originally released!

a very good example for the other end of campaign creation is YAP and Rising Sun.
even if those campaigns are heavily scripted, they provide a feel of immersion and realism that even IL2 is hard pressed to beat!
the mission briefings, based on historical facts are another factor that features heavily here!
I bought Rising Sun and really like it, blasting along in a torp bomber amongst the carnage of Pearl or hunting the PoW and the Repulse in a Nell/Betty is quite an experience.
not to mention tying the record, the original Val bomber pilots achieved during early 1942, placing close to 90% of their bombs on target.
with a hit rate like that, the German Stukas would have swept the RN from the seas in the Med during 1941, making a German victory in Egypt highly probable.
this is the stuff, great campaign creating is made of!
I hope, Oleg comes close to that level.

concerning DRM, lets see how the modding scene will evolve for that title.
do not forget how long it took for modding to get started in IL2.
and then we will have to see if parallel installs will work and how;
as long as unofficial stuff that could break the install does not mess up registry entries, keeping a fresh install as back up and copy it over over a messed up install after a failed modding trial should not be that much of a problem-without using up a precious activation.
(this has worked for me with LOMAC FC several times already)

Colonel, should you wish to get the A2A Spit and FSX for that matter, be prepared to spend much dinero to bring FSX to a great visual experience!
might set you back at least 200 Euros and then you are still missing stuff to shoot at smile
I do have FSX but have not really felt the need to mess around with it recently, as my highly modded FS2k4 install is still superior on my crate in many ways!
not to forget several great addon planes that are not available for FSX yet.
and Austria is not that greatly modelled in FSX, the FS2k4 scenarios are better IMHO;


to sum it up - having a highly modded IL2 install, WoP (+ addon) and LOMAC FC2, not to speak of occasional forays into OFF and Rising Sun, I am a very happy simming camper currently smile


Experience of battle divides those who talk about nothing but the anticipation from those who talk about everything but the memory of it.
#3205818 - 02/12/11 06:49 AM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: Avimimus]  
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Originally Posted By: Avimimus

The scripted missions have a trigger system (with randomisation) and will tend to have more detailed object/flight placement than a typical dynamic campaign. We will also have dynamic campaigns (and perhaps even strategic ones). IMHO, unlike RoF, Oleg has built in outputs for mission results (allowing 3rd party generators).


Again, I must point out incorrect statements about ROF. We do output results. Pat's Campaign Generator, which is obviously a 3rd Party effort while we build ours now has automatic results.

And mission built with Triggers and Randomization? Where have I seen that before..oh ya ROF has them. :-)

Jason

Last edited by 777 Studios - Jason; 02/12/11 06:50 AM.
#3205991 - 02/12/11 03:31 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Oh yes! Thanks Jason!

I'm really sorry I was misinformed.

I'm running RoF on a very marginal machine and the new shaders had prevented me from using it (until performance was optimised with the most recent patch). So, it had been a few months since I had run the sim and my awareness of the new versions was poor. I'll try to be careful to confirm that features don't exist before shooting off my mouth (although it can be tricky to know whats what given all of the updates and patches - a good thing, but confusing at times).

#3210353 - 02/17/11 05:35 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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You can turn off shaders in RoF in the settings exe. I have a quite good PC and I still turn them off because I am trying g to get rid of the shiny surfaces but they are still shiny so don't know what I need to do to remove it. Those planes mostly had canvas skins so they did not have shiny reflections from the sun as they do in RoF.


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#3210360 - 02/17/11 05:40 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: Avimimus]  
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Originally Posted By: Avimimus
I'd conservatively give it a 60% probability that the RU release will have different DRM. I actually don't know of one title that has had identical DRM from both regions.

Do you remember the EA debacle in 2001 (during the high tech boom). Upper management killed a half dozen flight-sim studios and effectively wiped out the genre. If it wasn't for ED and Oleg...


I think they killed off two studios and not "half a dozen". The loss of Microprose was a big killer of the genre too and I still mourn their loss today.


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#3211469 - 02/18/11 07:30 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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Mutt, I had everything turned to minimum (with the exception of using 800x600 instead of 640x480) - it had no effect (something about 1.015-1.016 and my old card). It really brought home the stupidity of the update system

As for EA - To be honest I may be confusing a few non-EA titles as well. I recall Microprose, Sierra and Jane's all quiting the genre at that time (so four studios). It would be great to discuss flight-sim history with someone who remembers more.

#3214189 - 02/21/11 10:33 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  
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My PC gaming history only goes back as far as 1993. First flight-sims I remember buying were AoE, Red Baron, 1942:PAW and Fleet Defender. All excellent sims for their time period and I still haven't found a sim that pulled me in as much as 1942:PAW.


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#3223645 - 03/03/11 09:34 PM Re: IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover - DRM is Tages [Re: ]  

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Updated DRM info over at UBI:

Quote:
IL2 Sturmovik: Cliff of Dover will use the SolidShield DRM solution. SolidShield features a flexible activation process and allows for up to 3 simultaneous game installs.



FAQ

What type of DRM is being used in IL-2 Stumovik: COD?
Avatar uses a new driverless activation solution to manage activations developed by Solidshield with whom T@GES is partnering.


How many activations do I get?
You can indefinitely activate your copy of the game on the same PC. You start with three activations (so, three different PC hardware configurations) to begin with. After one month, one activation will be re-credited (up to a maximum of three available activations at any given time).


Do I have to be online to activate my game?
While the activation solution will initially attempt to activate your game online, you can elect to manually enter an activation code. You will need to enter the code that comes with your game into the activation wizard, you will then be given an activation code that you can enter manually. So, although you do not necessarily need to have your computer hooked up to the internet, you will need to go online to obtain a code before playing.


Can Solidshield be removed from my computer?
Once the activation process has been completed, the activation solution does not install any software on your computer. Once the activation is completed, a data file is stored. This file is not hidden and can be removed from your computer if you wish. In this case, a new activation process will be triggered at the next game launch (without any effect on your activation count credit). Finally, the activation is driverless: no driver must be installed and uninstalled.


What if I have problems?
You may contact Solidshield support directly via email at support@solidshield.com.


Is it possible to revoke an installation?
Revocations are not considered, since users get one new activation per month, so if you do somehow manage to burn through your three activations, you only need to wait one month or contact support.


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