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#3204049 - 02/10/11 02:40 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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What an unclear thread to read. Admittedly I just browsed but could he not label things?

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#3204051 - 02/10/11 02:44 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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These are serious and well grounded accusations with NO response from Berryman on the Aerodrome site or his “home” site. There are at least 7 examples I recall:
- Three ripping off Mark Miller
- One from a female artists work from an Osprey book
- Two from Lucas Arts (Star Wars!) – is nothing sacred?
- One from another WWI artist

And I dismiss the “well, this is an issue that should be taken up between the artists involved” argument as this is the kind of look the other way reasoning that has brought western culture to the current very low state. It’s NOT OK to steal from others and then lie about it.

Now, does Tim West have a rather unique way of presenting the evidence? Yes he is a bit extreme at times. But you gotta laugh when he posted the evidence on the artists “home” site as Lando Carlissian. smile
That site swept the last incident under the rug pretty quickly. Not so this time around.

Last edited by Barkhorn1x; 02/10/11 03:29 PM.

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion."--- William Ralph Inge

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#3204067 - 02/10/11 02:57 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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I'd be fairly mad if someone used photography of me (for example my SimHQ calendars, of course they aren't that good to start with...)... painted them over and then sold it as "original work".

This is a good example:
http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/art/40766-production-over-originality-tools-hack-24.html

Ivan might as well throw a photoshop filter over the airliners.net image to create his "stencil drawing". A derivate if someone else's work can never be original art, and as far as I understand copyright, it certainly is not permissible to sell those.

The guy with the Space Shuttle has a point that painting over NASA public domain images is not technically plagiarism. If a bit simple, it is still well within legal limits. But borrowing other artist's shapes and view angles to fill them in really is thiefery...

#3204220 - 02/10/11 05:53 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Once again guys, whether Berryman did or did not do anything wrong requires a specialized understating of the laws related to property and I for one do not hold myself out as a lawyer or an expert of the law. We should not go around suggesting that Barryman did anything wrong. For instance, what if his work is inspired by the work of others, just as the Star Wars Death Star canyon run scene was inspired by The Dam Busters. Does this mean that George Lucas did something wrong? We should not represent things as fact when we are not in a position to know these matters. I am sure that Barryman will consult with his attorney and act in accordance with what makes sense, with regard to a response. I would not represent that his silence is indicia of guilt, for I am not in a position to know if he did anything wrong.

The moderators should lock this thread, since attacks on Barryman have nothing to do with Rise of Flight, 777 Studios, or SimHQ, for that matter. This seems to be a serious legal issue, at this point and why use our wonderful ROF WW1 flight sim forum, generously provided by SimHQ, to make attacks on the reputation of a perfectly innocent man, for all we know, like Barryman?

Last edited by MJMORROW; 02/10/11 05:54 PM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3204244 - 02/10/11 06:14 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: MJMORROW]  
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Originally Posted By: MJMORROW
This seems to be a serious legal issue, at this point and why use our wonderful ROF WW1 flight sim forum, generously provided by SimHQ, to make attacks on the reputation of a perfectly innocent man, for all we know, like Barryman?


Geez dude, if I ever committ a capital crime I want you on my jury.


"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism, while the wolf remains of a different opinion."--- William Ralph Inge

"The ORIGINAL Barkhorn"
#3204261 - 02/10/11 06:26 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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If one is going to accuse another of plagiarism one better be prepared to present a forensic quality case, otherwise he could be in for a butt load of trouble. I don't see that here. They don't call them toxic lawyers for nothing...

Just IMHO...


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#3204281 - 02/10/11 06:38 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Originally Posted By: Barkhorn1x
Originally Posted By: MJMORROW
This seems to be a serious legal issue, at this point and why use our wonderful ROF WW1 flight sim forum, generously provided by SimHQ, to make attacks on the reputation of a perfectly innocent man, for all we know, like Barryman?


Geez dude, if I ever committ a capital crime I want you on my jury.



You bet you want me on your jury. You sure don't want people jumping to conclusions, then representing their conclusions to others, in reckless disregard as to whether or not their conclusions are true; especially if you could be convicted, during the trial, then spend the rest of your life in prison or get executed, based on what happens during the sentencing phase. cheers

Last edited by MJMORROW; 02/10/11 06:42 PM.

Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3204283 - 02/10/11 06:39 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Bandy]  
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Originally Posted By: Bandy
If one is going to accuse another of plagiarism one better be prepared to present a forensic quality case, otherwise he could be in for a butt load of trouble. I don't see that here. They don't call them toxic lawyers for nothing...

Just IMHO...


+1 So well put.


Instead of complaining about SPAD 7s, Central pilots should capture and fly them too. I suggest putting an apple in the middle of your Aerodrome field and just wait. Eventually a SPAD 7 will come by to get the apple, cause SPADS can't resist apples. This is how the Entente gets a hold of SPAD 7s, m-kay?
-MJ Morrow
#3204315 - 02/10/11 07:06 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Berryman is aware of these accusations and has responded. This has been going on for years. You guys are only just now getting hip to it.

#3204526 - 02/10/11 09:39 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Bandy, I can't see how it is NOT proof that he even has the side rudder "angled" on his pencil outline and then repaints it straight (Albatros Ripoff).

And the Vulcan from Airliners.net speaks for itself. If that isn't "forensic proof" I don't know what is?

JFM, what were his responses to these claims, do you remember?

#3204553 - 02/10/11 10:12 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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JFM, what were his responses to these claims, do you remember?

He was irritated, denied the claims, and spent most of his posts attacking Tim West, who of course was unphased; trying to insult him is like throwing a dandelion at a Tiger tank. All this was before the recent thread, linked to above, with all the new examples. Several times TW has invited IB to come back and refute the claims and explain the "coincidences" but so far (AFAIK, at least) IB has not returned.

As far as Tim goes, this isn't just a Tim vs Ivan thing. I know via personal conversations that other WW1 artists feel the same way as Tim; Tim just has the balls to be vocally up-front about it and thus draws the most fire.

#3204568 - 02/10/11 10:20 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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That thread on the Aerodrome is fascinating and while Tim West seems pretty acerbic, for me the thing that disgusts me with what I can see of Berryman's work is not so much that of plagiarism, but of laziness. His website holds him out as a fine artist, but the images posted in the thread suggest he's just cutting, pasting and tracing based on photos and other people's art.

#3204569 - 02/10/11 10:21 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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I can't see how much more "forensic" the evidence could get than the plenty of superimposed images. Being afraid of lawyers is one thing, but going

is something different.

#3205008 - 02/11/11 12:37 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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It's a shame that Berryman feels so compelled to steal other peoples compositions to produce a picture. From a technical point of view he seems to be able to paint. If indeed it is him that actually moves the brush.
That Tim West fellow though is a noxious individual, who I see has no merit as an artist. Having seen his website, I'm sure all can agree that he is absolutely safe from having his work appropriated.

#3205097 - 02/11/11 03:03 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Freycinet]  
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Originally Posted By: Barkhorn1x
it is a bit ironic that Josh is put off by someone with VERY strong opinions.


Yes, of course, because clearly all who "march to the beat of a different drum" all march to the same alternate drum. /sarcasm
Nice binary fallacy. Being a deviant doesn't mean that one will automatically like other deviants, etc. That Tim West fellow appears to have little in common with me, and much that I find disagreeable.

On a related note, I get slammed for having "very strong opinions" mostly because those opinions happen to be contrary to those of the majority. Many others have equally strong opinions which are tolerated and encouraged because they're in line with the popular impression. It's a double-standard, much like "tolerance:" the people who claim to be tolerant are generally as intolerant as the people whom they accuse of intolerance; the two groups are merely intolerant of different things. Of course, my pointing this out is pointless, and I didn't even get to my ultimate point, so I guess this was a pointless waste of time. Then again, most Internet forum posts are.

Originally Posted By: Freycinet
"No time" to read what the thread is about, but time enough to opine about it in a looong posting in here?


It's actually "time-energy," but yeah, even with straight time ... it took me about ten minutes to go through the first two or three pages of that thread and try to make some sense of it. Took me about one minute to post here about the unclearness of that thread. Which is what my post was about. You lot attacking me here are missing my point. I wasn't (and am not) saying, "That artist is not a plagiarist." I'm saying, "That thread is super unclear and the person making the argument is being a jerk, whether or not he is right or wrong on the original matter." If someone's gonna try to convince me that an artist is a plagiarist, then the one doing the convincing must use clear examples in a concise, organized format. Not vague un-sourced pictures and heavy sprinklings of snide remarks about unrelated subjects over three pages of nothing remotely concrete.

Originally Posted By: Freycinet
Guys, you couldn't bother wading through the thread, fair enough, but then you shouldn't post your opions on the conclusions they arrive at in there.


Wrong. I didn't post my opinions on the conclusions, I posted my opinion on the method of attempting to convince others of the conclusion. You lot (meaning the people in this thread who made assumptions about my post and/or attacked me) are falsely assuming that I believe that the artist is not a plagiarist. In actuality, I have no idea whether or not the artist in question is a plagiarist, and don't really care. I care about the method of the accusation, not the truth of this particular accusation itself. In essence, the following two posts make the point I was attempting to make:

Originally Posted By: julian265
Tim West really needs to learn to post clear arguments and evidence.


Originally Posted By: FlatSpinMan
What an unclear thread to read. Admittedly I just browsed but could he not label things?

#3205419 - 02/11/11 08:56 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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If someone takes a picture of you ..... can they copyright it?

News at 11:00 .......
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#3205452 - 02/11/11 09:21 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Only with my consent can they use it for anything commercial.

#3410735 - 10/15/11 02:08 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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Sorry to bump this old thread, but I can't help but seem to bump into more of Ivan Berryman's not so subtle appropriations.



The EIII looks like a flipped version of the much loved Revell box art for their 1/72 Eindekker..



Has anyone else continued to notice these?

#3410750 - 10/15/11 02:35 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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@ Feathered,

I took both EIII images, flipped one, and overlapped in photoshop. They are not identical, so it was not a direct rip-off, but the old Revell image could have been used as a starting point since the perspective is nearly identical.

I submit that most airtists in this technical/photo-realisitc genre are using old photographs, or now 3D sim screenshots, in a manner much like this to generate "original art". Not saying it is a bad thing, just be aware of calling the kettle black...


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#3410752 - 10/15/11 02:51 PM Re: “Related” Topic – WWI Art Plagiarism [Re: Barkhorn1x]  
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lol.. if some 'luvvy' wants to take a pic of me and use it for generating a bit of dosh I don't care.
This whole concept can be taken to any extreme mind you.. do you remember how upset you all got because a certain US manafacturer wouldn't allow 'Pacific Fighters' to include all of its aircraft?
G A L

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